It's Sukhoi vs Eurofighter as IAF 'takes on' RAF

[sancho]

Guys please talk about MMRCA in the related thread and stay on topic!

Regarding Sukhoi vs Eurofighter, or IAF vs RAF, I think this will be a very good exercise for the whole IAF and it's air defence capabilities. Not because the EF is coming, but because they can field all IAF fighters + AWACS against an enemy force with dedicated AWACS too. IAF can simulate air defense and develop better tactics against enemy AWACS and fighters guided by them and for sure have offensive parts too, where IAF attacks an enemy with AWACS and air defense (probably with our neighbors in mind).

Besides that, EF is superior to MKI in A2A, while MKI remain superior in A2G. Lower RCS, long range missiles on the one side, higher payload, range and variety of weapons on the other.

 

[redpearl75]

Agreed... Even in close combat MKI can outperform EFT any given day... RCS though is a prime concern in long range engagement... And that's the future as dogfights won't even be necessary then... For that MKI needs a full fledged aupgradation to be done.... Radar, Engines, Avionics and, RAM (Radar Absorbant Material)....

 

[redpearl75]

 

[redpearl75]

Can someone tell me what this upgrade is all about.. I found an old article just now... Sorry, if it has already been discussed out here...

---------- Post added at 09:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 PM ----------

Su-30 upgraded to test next generation cockpit -10/04/2001-Flight International

 

[hardcore]

Guys please talk about MMRCA in the related thread and stay on topic!

Regarding Sukhoi vs Eurofighter, or IAF vs RAF, I think this will be a very good exercise for the whole IAF and it's air defence capabilities. Not because the EF is coming, but because they can field all IAF fighters + AWACS against an enemy force with dedicated AWACS too. IAF can simulate air defense and develop better tactics against enemy AWACS and fighters guided by them and for sure have offensive parts too, where IAF attacks an enemy with AWACS and air defense (probably with our neighbors in mind).

Besides that, EF is superior to MKI in A2A, while MKI remain superior in A2G. Lower RCS, long range missiles on the one side, higher payload, range and variety of weapons on the other.

M8 SU-30MKI RCS is higher than Eurofighter's

 

[sancho]

M8 SU-30MKI RCS is higher than Eurofighter's

What I meant was, EF is superior in A2A because of lower RCS, long range missiles..., MKI is superior in A2G because of higher payload, range...

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Can someone tell me what this upgrade is all about.. I found an old article just now... Sorry, if it has already been discussed out here...

---------- Post added at 09:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 PM ----------

Su-30 upgraded to test next generation cockpit -10/04/2001-Flight International

all dials were replaced by MFDs and thats all.

 

[rockstarIN]

MKIs have long range radars than EF, range of weapons is higher than EF, Only RCS is low for EF which in a AWACS scenerio, less relevant. then how EF is superior than MKI, which is a air superiority fighter?

 

[CONNAN]

IAF and RAF chiefs to fly during war games

BY: The Telegraph

The air force chiefs of India and the UK are likely to personally lead fighter aircraft in war games out of Kalaikunda in Bengal from October 18.

Air Chief Marshals Pradeep Vasant Naik and Sir Stephen Dalton will join their fighter pilots in Eurofighter Typhoons of the UK Royal Air Force (RAF) and Sukhois of the Indian Air Force (IAF) that fly out of Kalaikunda for manoeuvres over the Bay of Bengal.

The air chiefs will join the drill towards the end of the two-week exercise, named “Indradhanush”, that ends on November 3.

The air chiefs are 60 and 61 years of age. Officers in the IAF usually do not fly the demanding fighter aircraft as a routine beyond the rank of Wing Commander.

Both Naik and Dalton have supervised major induction programmes for their air forces. Dalton was the director of the Eurofighter Typhoon programme when the aircraft was inducted in the RAF to replace the Tornadoes that he flew during the cold war and in armed missions over Iraq.

Naik has flown all types of fighter aircraft in the inventory of the IAF and was among the eight pilots selected to induct the MiG-23 from Russia. Currently, his main job is to ensure the selection of an aircraft under the $12 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft programme.

The Eurofighter Typhoon is one of the six aircraft in competition for that order. The other five are — the F-16 Super Viper, the F-18 Super Hornet, the Gripen NG, the Rafale and the MiG-35.

The Typhoons would be seen in a joint operational scenario in the India for the first time in the exercise at Kalaikunda in West Midnapore. The IAF will be deploying, apart from the Sukhoi 30 Mki, its Mirage MiG 27s and Airborne Early Warning and Control Systems (AWACS) Aircraft. The RAF is also flying in its AWACS (E-3D) and mid-air refuellers (VC-10).

“The exercise Indradhanush is an opportunity for both air forces to get an insight into each other’s operational philosophies and work cultures. This will enhance the understanding of our air force to operate in a scenario involving state-of the-art technologies,” said Air Marshal K.K. Nohwar, Air Officer Commander-in-Chief, Eastern Air Command.

In a written brief to the participating aircrew, Air Marshal L.K. Malhotra, senior air staff officer of the Eastern Air Command said: “This exercise will prove to be a boon for both the nations to fine tune their procedures for multi-national operations, which are likely to happen with greater frequency in future. It will help fine tunetactics for large force engagements and also share each others experience to hone up the skills even more”.

The IAF has modernised the Kalaikunda base and hosts large-scale international exercises there.

 

[sancho]

MKIs have long range radars than EF, range of weapons is higher than EF, Only RCS is low for EF which in a AWACS scenerio, less relevant. then how EF is superior than MKI, which is a air superiority fighter?

That's not correct, MKI has a bit more radar range, but also a clearly bigger RCS and the AIM 120 (depending in version of course) offers slightly more range, not to mention the METEOR. Even with AWACS, the MKI will be detected way before the EF, also both are air superiority fighters. Actually EF was developed to fight Flankers in a cold war scenario, as an European counter part to them, or to the US F15, that's why it focused on comparable A2A features (long range radar, maneuverability, speed...).

 

[mehboobkz]

Indian AWACS to participate in Indo-UK Air Exercise Indradhanush

Indo-UK Air Force Exercise named Ex-Indradhanush would be taking place at Air Force Station Kalaikunda, in West Midinapur district, West Bengal from 18 Oct 2010 till 03 Nov 2010.

This would be for the first time when RAF (Royal Air Force) Typhoons would be seen in a joint operational scenario in India. The IAF would be participating in this exercise with its SU-30 MKI, Mirage 2000s, Mig 27s and Airborne Early Warning and Control Systems (AWACS) Aircraft. The RAF would also be deploying its AWACS (E-3D) and Air to Air refuellers (VC-10).

According to the Air Marshal KK Nohwar, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Eastern Air Command “the exercise Indradhanush is an opportunity for both the Air Forces to get an insight into each others operational philosophies and work cultures. This will greatly enhance the understanding of our Air Force to operate in scenario involving state of the art technologies”.

During the exercise Indradhanush, specific emphasis will be on exposing more IAFs aircrew and controllers to missions like Large Force Engagements, and protection of High Value Aerial Assets roles routinely undertaken by RAF as apart of coalition/expeditionary force deployment around the globe. It will be for the first time that IAF AWACS will participate in a joint AF exercise. The other novel exposure is expected to be logistical management needed to move large forces for a possible out of area contingency.

Air Force Station Kalaikunda, with its infrastructure of international Standards, has now become a natural choice for hosting international exercises. IAF has earlier exercise with Airforces of other countries in various parts of the world such as USA (mainland), Alaska, France, South Africa and Oman.

 

[jha]

That's not correct, MKI has a bit more radar range, but also a clearly bigger RCS and the AIM 120 (depending in version of course) offers slightly more range, not to mention the METEOR. Even with AWACS, the MKI will be detected way before the EF, also both are air superiority fighters. Actually EF was developed to fight Flankers in a cold war scenario, as an European counter part to them, or to the US F15, that's why it focused on comparable A2A features (long range radar, maneuverability, speed...).

Meteor is not yet operational...range wise India has AAMs comparable to AIM-120C..Plus biggest contributor to RCS of MKI is monstrously powerful BARS radar which gives its presence from larger range..

 

[rockstarIN]

Meteor is not yet operational...range wise India has AAMs comparable to AIM-120C..Plus biggest contributor to RCS of MKI is monstrously powerful BARS radar which gives its presence from larger range..

AIM-120s upgraded version yet to come out,

As of now R-77 is the most long range A2A missile.(Both AIM & R-77 is getting upgraded for more longer ranges)

 

[sancho]

Plus biggest contributor to RCS of MKI is monstrously powerful BARS radar which gives its presence from larger range..

Hi jha, not sure about that. True the big radar in active mode contributes to the RCS, but don't you think there are ore parts about the airframe that are the reasons for the big RCS of the MKI?
For example the big size in general, the huge vertical tail fins, the big air intakes without any ducts, or radar blocker..., that all should make the MKI (even in passive mode), not really stealthy or?
Compare that to an EF, or Rafale, both way smaller, both have vertical tail fins too, but at least only one of them and made of composite materials, ducted air intakes that doesn't make the engine visible big ammount of RAM materials and other features to reduce the RCS.

Btw, one of the main reasons I like the Rafale its excellent capabilities in passive mode. Its AESA radar is an improvement compared to the earlier RBE 2, but I doubt that it will be as good as the US radars. But the French impressivelly showed that they don't need the radar necessarily, because with IRST and moreover the SPECTRA EWS they can detect enemy targets in up to 200Km range and can even guide missiles passively. That is exaclty the opposite of what the MKI offers, because it was aimed on active detection and that's why I think that both together (with datalinks) would be a perfect combo in air defense roles for IAF.
We saw IAF using such tactics with MKI and Mig 21s in passive mode against US F15s and now think about MKI/Rafale against J10/J11.

 

[dbc]

Hi jha, not sure about that. True the big radar in active mode contributes to the RCS, but don't you think there are ore parts about the airframe that are the reasons for the big RCS of the MKI?
For example the big size in general, the huge vertical tail fins, the big air intakes without any ducts, or radar blocker..., that all should make the MKI (even in passive mode), not really stealthy or?
Compare that to an EF, or Rafale, both way smaller, both have vertical tail fins too, but at least only one of them and made of composite materials, ducted air intakes that doesn't make the engine visible big ammount of RAM materials and other features to reduce the RCS.

Btw, one of the main reasons I like the Rafale its excellent capabilities in passive mode. Its AESA radar is an improvement compared to the earlier RBE 2, but I doubt that it will be as good as the US radars. But the French impressivelly showed that they don't need the radar necessarily, because with IRST and moreover the SPECTRA EWS they can detect enemy targets in up to 200Km range and can even guide missiles passively. That is exaclty the opposite of what the MKI offers, because it was aimed on active detection and that's why I think that both together (with datalinks) would be a perfect combo in air defense roles for IAF.
We saw IAF using such tactics with MKI and Mig 21s in passive mode against US F15s and now think about MKI/Rafale against J10/J11.

Rafale's close coupled SPF/DB titanium canard design is the worst radar LO design.Then you have other obvious RCS offenders like the refueling probe, the fuselage boundary layer splitter separating the fuselage from the air intake - I've asked you before prove your claims.

On the other hand the Typhoons long-coupled foreplane is a much better design from a radar observability perspective.

French impressivelly showed that they don't need the radar necessarily, because with IRST and moreover the SPECTRA EWS they can detect enemy targets in up to 200Km range and can even guide missiles passively.

..were you drunk when you wrote this?
When did the French 'impressively' demonstrate 200Km IRST detection and targeting?