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Italy delivering surplus self-propelled howitzers to Pakistan Army

No doubt they can be targeted through SEAD/DEAD by AF,but you see it work both ways.
EW would have problem against AESA systems.
Pak operates SLC-2 system which is AESA.

Bharatis have been lately seen deploying state of the art drones designed by susralis for AD pen but good thing is that,they aren't huge in numbers.

Nodoubt about it, but still HUMINT assets+sats when coupled with enemy Aircrafts firing standoff PGM's would pose serious threat to Arty pos's.


1. PAF wont be taking out Indian WLRs. Pakistan Army's own Recon elements (ground and air) will locate IA's WLRS and engage them through Artillery.

3. IA wont be going after PA Artillery as priority. They will be more concerned about attacking PA infantry holding positions and armored warfare in the desert.
 
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1. PAF wont be taking out Indian WLRs. Pakistan Army's own Recon elements (ground and air) will locate IA's WLRS and engage them through Artillery.
It would easy,if we deploy AR Missiles against them.There are lot of things unknown about Bharati WLR.I am bit concerned about enemy recent additons,they would cause huge problem for us.
P.S:-We should try developing guided 203mm shells+range extension for 203mm guns.Usrel increased range of their M-107's from 40 to 50+ km.
3. IA wont be going after PA Artillery as priority. They will be more concerned about attacking PA infantry holding positions and armored warfare in the desert.
They would go after Arty citing the fact that it has always devastated them in past.
 
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1. PAF wont be taking out Indian WLRs. Pakistan Army's own Recon elements (ground and air) will locate IA's WLRS and engage them through Artillery.

3. IA wont be going after PA Artillery as priority. They will be more concerned about attacking PA infantry holding positions and armored warfare in the desert.

@Game.Invade @Signalian
@Mangus Ortus Novem
@Armchair


An interesting fact is, that after we were capable of mass-producing our own MANPAD Anza-1 and 2 for the air defence, because during the beginning of the 1990s, the Pakistan army registered the shortness of mobile and pinpoint air defence and continued so in the area of Anti Tank missiles a la Bakthar Shikan and mastered in the field of armour through the development and production of the Alkhalid Tank, it seems there was never a strategic demand for an in house development or production of howitzer or a towed field gun.

Despite that the Pakistan Army continued using the British WW2 The BL 5.5 inch Gun and the Ordnance QF 25-pounder till ca. 2002, years ago some members did write that, the guns are retired, which I don't agree because the Military history of Pakistan Army teaches another way.
It was not seen necessary to produce own Artillery guns, but to produce the ammunition for the captured Indian 25 Punders, the question here is, if these guns are really retired and not handed over to the Frontier Corps or stationed at the LOC, what will be happening to the tons of shells which P.O.F. produced over the period of 25 years. I question the retirement of these guns because the Pakistan Army lives the philosophy "It's the men behind the gun" as we have seen in the Kargil war, where the Army used WW2 Guns during the offensive and defensive operations. So in the Pakistan Army, nothing got wasted, neither the economical situation of the country would allow such privilege as the neighbouring Indian Army have, and so is the case for all other ca.500 Artillery pieces which have their origins from the WW2 purchased from the US or China (Russian soviet origin).

It is not publicly known of any upgrades or updates of the Pakistani Artillery gun inventory, and I doubt that there was ever any or planed, again here it seems it was not seen necessary to standardise the inventory on the 155mm calibre as its the trend in the western and Indian Army, maybe the Army believes the Artillery can fulfil the task with the current inventory.

The latest artillery gun procurement was during the 1980s and 1990s for the M198 155mm and the D-30 122mm during the recent operations in the ongoing mountain warfare in western Pakistan.

Under Musharraf era, there was seen the 155mm Turkish Panthers presented in a press release by the ISPR, it was labelled that it will be produced under license in Pakistan and there were plans to procure over 100 guns, but because off the shortcomings, thats the official statement, the procurement was stopped and maybe even the Artillery guns were shipped back Turkey !

For any new procurement, modernisation, or in house production, we should raise the Question which role will the towed Pakistani artillery play in a conventional Pak-Indo war, in my opinion after analysing the current development, it will take the defensive role, the offensive will be lead by the Self propelled Artillery, where Pakistan at the moment enjoys an advantage (which is only a question of time, as India is mass producing the Korean self-propelled 155 mm K-9 Thunder, which seems equal to our current SP-Inventory).

As Pakistan has a very long border with India, and in a conventional war if it wants to gain any meters in Indian Punjab and Kashmir sector it needs massive and overhelming firepower, to overcome the Indian Anti-tank obstacles, Anti-tank trenches, Anti-tank mines, very large minefields, deep trenches and bunker which are constructed in many lines. If anyone has studied and understood the doctrine of the East German Army, Wehrmacht or soviet Army, the forces were in the same strategic path situation, a border to border war, where both sides have build up a massive defence wall over the past 70 years. The East Germany Army had to face the same task as today Pakistan, penetrate the enemy territory, breakthrough with Tank armies and capture high-value territory for negotiations till reinforcement from the east arrives, the difficulty in these tasks lied, that neither east Germany had the technologie nor, the budget to full fill this task. The Nato equipped west German Army had better technologies and equipment, more Division because all Nato allies were already stationed in west Germany.

So we find some major similarity here between Pakistans task and the east Germany mission to fight an overwhelming enemy and gain at the same time territory. The Procurement Artillery history of the East German army NVA can be compared with that of Pakistan, not retiring old Artillery systems to keep the numbers in inventory high, purchase used Artillery guns from the WW2 era of ex-soviet Russian arsenal and shortness in procuring modern systems.

But come back to the question to the role of the Artillery in an offensive carried out by Pakistan against the Indian border strongholds, why its necessary to have modern Artillery in high numbers?

The answer is simple to crush the Indian strongholds and make the way free for Infantry and Tanks, for this task Pakistan needs high calibre guns in high numbers, call it a massive and destructive firepower. I will not continue now to write about the East Germany NVA doctrine, how they planned to make a breakthrough the Nato lines with opening the battle on the ground with a massive artillery fire, because the would need a whole chapter here in PDF to be written (if anyone is interested then after my exams). But the conclusions is, towed artillery is cheaper to maintain and procure than SP-Artillery, its needed to crush the Indian stronghold lines along the Border and in the mountains, for that we need high calibre standard artillery in higher numbers, this can be archived by study and development of our artillery inventory and meet the demand of the Army through purchasing a system which can be produced in Pakistan.
 
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For the period of 2019-2021, Italy has put further 123 surplus M-109L on offer (source: official report page-25)

PA's aim right from the beginning was all Italian pcs, roughly 250 of them. The only obstacle that may emerge for the second deal is US govt. approval.

PA requirements keep changing. Once there was a requirement of hundreds of wheeled SPGs. Some were evaluated but PA has inducted M-109 only

Couldn't miss the opportunity of buying hundreds of M109s at lucrative prices, refurbished and delivered with quantities of spares. PA has done it perfectly right. Buy the guns and create a requirement.

Tell this to Gryphon
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He will be so happy and start updating records straightaway
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So true. :partay: :whistle::whistle:
 
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PA's aim right from the beginning was all Italian pcs, roughly 250 of them. The only obstacle that may emerge for the second deal is US govt. approval.



Couldn't miss the opportunity of buying hundreds of M109s at lucrative prices, refurbished and delivered with quantities of spares. PA has done it perfectly right. Buy the guns and create a requirement.



So true. :partay: :whistle::whistle:
Leonardo is also working on an upgrade path for the M109Ls that would turn them into 52-cal SPHs capable of firing guided rounds. So, basically, the PA can get a 155 mm/52-cal SPH at a fraction of the cost of a new one. Even if it's to buy new ones later on, what's the harm of getting 250 extra for really cheap?
 
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Leonardo is also working on an upgrade path for the M109Ls that would turn them into 52-cal SPHs capable of firing guided rounds. So, basically, the PA can get a 155 mm/52-cal SPH at a fraction of the cost of a new one. Even if it's to buy new ones later on, what's the harm of getting 250 extra for really cheap?
maybe they will market their GPS guided Vulcano too?
 
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Delivery of 122 M109L SPHs completed early 2019.

Approximate 5+ regiments if it’s 6 guns per battery and 4 batteries per regiment

Approximately 7 regiments if there are 3 batteries with 6 guns Per regiment

Assuming two section of 20 per gun or about 350-450 strength per battalion including hq
 
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Approximate 5+ regiments if it’s 6 guns per battery and 4 batteries per regiment

Approximately 7 regiments if there are 3 batteries with 6 guns Per regiment

Assuming two section of 20 per gun or about 350-450 strength per battalion including hq
I have seen SP Regiments with 12 M109 + 6 Type-59 130mm
 
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Leonardo is also working on an upgrade path for the M109Ls that would turn them into 52-cal SPHs capable of firing guided rounds. So, basically, the PA can get a 155 mm/52-cal SPH at a fraction of the cost of a new one. Even if it's to buy new ones later on, what's the harm of getting 250 extra for really cheap?
Army was aiming to acquire entire Italian stock of M109L. 1st batch has been delivered successfully, however, 2nd batch is currently struck due to payment issues. If we failed to rectify those issues then probably army will not be acquiring any more M109L from Italy.
These guns are in very good condition and I don't think army will consider any significant upgrade for time being.
 
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