Italian Secretary-General Defense hails Pakistan Navy

[Gryphon]

Pakistani R&D organizations are known to pursue only those systems which can't be acquired from outside due to political/technical/financial reasons. This is evident from the development of Harbah which exceeds the limitations imposed by MTCR.

Indigenous supersonic missile project has been officially revealed, and multiple sources have reported ongoing development of an indigenous air defence system.

There are plenty of short-to-medium range options like Umkhonto, Aster-15, LY-80, CAMM-ER, etc available but when it comes to the medium-to-long category, nothing can substitute the potential of an indigenous system.

 

[HRK]

Do you mean STM? Do they have a submarine or a concept? I haven't come across anything worthwhile.

they presented a design to PN as reported by Turkish Media ....

And IF the model which Turkish delegation gave to PN official at the signing ceremony for upgrade of second Agosta submarine, representing the purposed Turkish design than exterior of that model was similar to U-214 .... or we can say mini U-214 ....

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I predicted this sometime back. What is the update here?



Isn't that 10 years?



I am sure the Italians would be able to offer some kind of deferred payment or payment holiday for Pakistani Navy.



I think that unlike in the past, SSG would only be a payload and a secondary payload, and PN may be interested in a multirole platform.



Do you mean STM? Do they have a submarine or a concept? I haven't come across anything worthwhile.



So, whats the verdict?

Yup, but the next wave of procurement is to include new LRMPAs, helicopters, etc. I think the PN frontloaded the AIP sub requirement with the 8 Hangor, preferring to get them first before moving onto other projects. They can negotiate for the mini SSKs earlier and sign for it, but I think induction may be 10 years out.

PS: it seems the Turkish sub might be SOF only, so if a multi-mission sub is sought, then the jury is still out on a selection. But the Italian firms have an edge.

 

[ziaulislam]

Pakistani R&D organizations are known to pursue only those systems which can't be acquired from outside due to political/technical/financial reasons. This is evident from the development of Harbah which exceeds the limitations imposed by MTCR.

Indigenous supersonic missile project has been officially revealed, and multiple sources have reported ongoing development of an indigenous air defence system.

There are plenty of short-to-medium range options like Umkhonto, Aster-15, LY-80, CAMM-ER, etc available but when it comes to the medium-to-long category, nothing can substitute the potential of an indigenous system.

this approach is wrong for large procurements..
you shouldnt import a tank, a missle if you are going to build 1000s of them...this is cost prohabitive

yes if its small procurement than go for imports

shortly pakistan needs
1. own tank, engine, truck
2. own MRAP
3. short and medium range SAM that can be used across all three forces
4. a single medium multipupose helicopter than should replace the puma and mi 17
5. may be light helicopter if the numbers are there
6. a light frigate design
7. own art gun
8. small arms

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

this approach is wrong for large procurements..
you shouldnt import a tank, a missle if you are going to build 1000s of them...this is cost prohabitive

yes if its small procurement than go for imports

shortly pakistan needs
1. own tank, engine, truck
2. own MRAP
3. short and medium range SAM that can be used across all three forces
4. a single medium multipupose helicopter than should replace the puma and mi 17
5. may be light helicopter if the numbers are there
6. a light frigate design
7. own art gun
8. small arms

We bought the design IP for the Jinnah class, but we need to localize the production of its steel and composites.

The Mi-171 is bigger than a medium weight (9-10 ton) helicopter, and I don't think there is a natural replacement for it aside from Russia and China's new projects (e.g. Z-18).

But I agree on a standard 9-10 ton helicopter platform, not only can we use it for transport, CSAR, naval ops, etc, but use the same engines, rotors, transmission, etc for a heavy attack heli too.

Agreed on everything else.

 

[ziaulislam]

We bought the design IP for the Jinnah class, but we need to localize the production of its steel and composites.

The Mi-171 is bigger than a medium weight (9-10 ton) helicopter, and I don't think there is a natural replacement for it aside from Russia and China's new projects (e.g. Z-18).

But I agree on a standard 9-10 ton helicopter platform, not only can we use it for transport, CSAR, naval ops, etc, but use the same engines, rotors, transmission, etc for a heavy attack heli too.

Agreed on everything else.

i doubt china will offer us anything these days, seem the mood is for them to make us buy their products rather than help us develop indigenous systems..which to be honest is strategic mistake that Chinese are making, seeing how Americans are successfully isolating them..

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

i doubt china will offer us anything these days, seem the mood is for them to make us buy their products rather than help us develop indigenous systems..which to be honest is strategic mistake that Chinese are making, seeing how Americans are successfully isolating them..

For helicopters, one route is working with the Turks as they already have a program (10 ton transport plus a heavyweight attack helicopter) in the works, with their own engine and critical parts projects. In fact, they're looking for partners, and Pakistan is a country they've approached. It'd be shared work in terms of funding and production, but an option.

Otherwise, we do what the Turks did with the ATAK and by a project off the shelf with deep ToT, like the AW149 (but with the Safran Aneto instead of GE CT7 engine). In this case, we'd still rely on France and Italy for some parts (engine, etc), but we could manufacture the airframe and possibly even rotors and avionics.

 

[Rafi]

i doubt china will offer us anything these days, seem the mood is for them to make us buy their products rather than help us develop indigenous systems..which to be honest is strategic mistake that Chinese are making, seeing how Americans are successfully isolating them..

Your wrong, in fact it is the other way, nuff said.

 

[araz]

For helicopters, one route is working with the Turks as they already have a program (10 ton transport plus a heavyweight attack helicopter) in the works, with their own engine and critical parts projects. In fact, they're looking for partners, and Pakistan is a country they've approached. It'd be shared work in terms of funding and production, but an option.

Otherwise, we do what the Turks did with the ATAK and by a project off the shelf with deep ToT, like the AW149 (but with the Safran Aneto instead of GE CT7 engine). In this case, we'd still rely on France and Italy for some parts (engine, etc), but we could manufacture the airframe and possibly even rotors and avionics.

I honestly dont know how realistic this is. I think we have the capacity of building the composites for the outer shell, but rotor and blades as well as Engine parts are where we may struggle.
Then how much of a demand do we have for a project you are suggesting? 100 units at best.So unless there is a commercial version for which there is a demand is the project financially viable? Answers and thoughts are welcome.
Regards
A

 

[ziaulislam]

I honestly dont know how realistic this is. I think we have the capacity of building the composites for the outer shell, but rototr and blades as well as Engine parts are where we may struggle.
Then how mucch of a demand do we have for a project you are syuggesting? 100 units at best.So unless there is a commercial version for which there is a demand is the project financially viable? Answers and thoughts are welcome.
Regards
A

in the long run the demand will surely be 200 units..look at mi17 and pumas..even if its just 1:1 replacement it will be 150 units...
we talking about next 25-30 years...

and if we join with another country we can get firm order of 200-250 (for example with turkey)
that is big enough number to justify such a project

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I honestly dont know how realistic this is. I think we have the capacity of building the composites for the outer shell, but rototr and blades as well as Engine parts are where we may struggle.
Then how mucch of a demand do we have for a project you are syuggesting? 100 units at best.So unless there is a commercial version for which there is a demand is the project financially viable? Answers and thoughts are welcome.
Regards
A

Between the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Gov't, I think we can stretch a medium-weight transport helicopter to at least 150 units, possibly 200. But if you make an attack helicopter using the same common core parts (e.g., rotors) you can pull it to 250 (assuming you really invest in building a large attack helicopter fleet).

Moreover, if you're partnering with Turkey or another country with comparable scale, you can push total production of just the regular transport helicopter to 300+, which is decent.

And then, like the UH-60 and Mi-17-series, you develop future variants to replace the old ones as they retire. So, iterative changes/block-building, but over 30-40+ years, you could end up with a total production run of 300+ transport helicopters.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

they presented a design to PN as reported by Turkish Media ....

And IF the model which Turkish delegation gave to PN official at the signing ceremony for upgrade of second Agosta submarine, representing the purposed Turkish design than exterior of that model was similar to U-214 .... or we can say mini U-214 ....

I thought so, but I dont want the Turkish Yani Churri here coming after me. In my assessment, Turks are only a design concept or TKMS concept, which maybe slightly behind on what the PN is expecting.

 

[YeBeWarned]

I thought so, but I dont want the Turkish Yani Churri here coming after me. In my assessment, Turks are only a design concept or TKMS concept, which maybe slightly behind on what the PN is expecting.

good to have you back sir

Your wrong, in fact it is the other way, nuff said.

any corporations on going Long range SAM's ? any word on SPH's ?

 

[Rafi]

good to have you back sir



any corporations on going Long range SAM's ? any word on SPH's ?

Major stuff going on in all services, can't reveal now, but suffice to say exciting times for defence.

 

[YeBeWarned]

Major stuff going on in all services, can't reveal now, but suffice to say exciting times for defence.

bro , do remember me in your future threads Looking forward to it ..