Italian Secretary-General Defense hails Pakistan Navy

[Quwa]

What Leonardo supplying for T-129 Atak is 20mm gathling gun and landing gears at present. I don’t suppose Leonardo can export T-129 without Turkey bro.

So, no way Leonardo's input can amount to more than $30-40 m for the T129, right?

 

[RangeMaster]

Can you post the link from where did you screenshot it.

I downloaded arms transfers report from SIPRI and then took a screen shot from there.
Here..
https://armstrade.sipri.org/armstrade/page/trade_register.php

 

[Hassan Guy]

When push comes to shove we’ll always have one option or another as long as we have the capital. I’ll agree with you on indigenous capability, it has to be attained but personally involving a SOE has always been a useless proposition. Look what has been the result of ToT for 90-Bs? Are we producing the submarine locally? We can’t compare ourselves to what other countries do when they go for ToT. South Koreans now produce their own version of German S/Ms for which they went for ToT with certain technologies surpassing the original version in many ways. Turks are doing the same. That’s because they have a vibrant private sector, a readily pool of highly talented pool of Engineers and a Real focus on ToT and R&D. Why PN paid an extra 300 Million for ToT(which basically in the end was just a Sub-Assembly or assembling a Knock Down Kit) when Instead of ToT we could have used that Capital for 2 extra S/Ms. It’s because the higher command back then thought that it will provide us a capability to produce our own S/M. So when u spent a capital which could have basically bought you 02 extra S/Ms and believed it will lead to achieving a capability of indigenous production/ self sufficiency and after 10-14 years the capability is not there without the back up of a Private infrastructure etc it will be a redundant capability. Because down 10-14 years the line you’ll again have to spend 6-8 Bn USD to get S/Ms because the local Capacity is simply not there. That’s the Harsh reality. Look at Burraq it’s basically just a Local Chinese Knock Off. While we moved to pay for Burraqs ToT from the Chinese they had already moved to Ch-4/5. Another route Instead of ToT would have saved us a lot of headaches and a major capability boost by slowly going for small batches of Ch-3, and then Ch-4 and so on. Al-Khalid is there, the Capability is there, but When there is No R&D you’ll always end up with Having Trials for the Likes Of Oplot or Vt-4 and name it another project Haider etc. We need to first Restructure the whole Defence SOE and their Subsidiaries, Change the Organizational structure instead of Making Chairman’s post a Welfare Pre Retirement post. ToT for the G-3 has been done by H&K back in the days. It’s been more than 30-40 years and PoF has been churning out the same Wpn decade after decade. The max tweaks that they do or have done is Change the Butt stock, Shorten the barrel here and there, attach rails etc. Why invite FN,CZ,MKEK for trials then when capability is already there which paid precious foreign exchange was paid decades ago for the very same reason I.E So we may not use foreign exchange in the future.

I mean with the agosta deal there where kickbacks on both sides, but still we had guys trained in France and it laid some ground work with sub building. Now it would had made sense to build a sub similar to the agosta afterwards maybe as a jv with turkey or China that could be exported like the JF-17. But we where hit with an earthquake in 05 and the Indian sub fleet was growing fast. It was just too expensive and risky, so they where negotiating to buy the Type-214 back in 08 which made sense but that never came about.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I mean with the agosta deal there where kickbacks on both sides, but still we had guys trained in France and it laid some ground work with sub building. Now it would had made sense to build a sub similar to the agosta afterwards maybe as a jv with turkey or China that could be exported like the JF-17. But we where hit with an earthquake in 05 and the Indian sub fleet was growing fast. It was just too expensive and risky, so they where negotiating to buy the Type-214 back in 08 which made sense but that never came about.

The issue with the Agosta 90B (and F-22P, and probably Hangor/MILGEM) is that we might have gotten the know-how for manufacturing them, but zero in the way of the underlying critical technologies (steel, propulsion, electronics). So, with the Agosta, we would've had to import kits from France, and pay top dollar.

My point has generally been to work with other countries to indigenously develop and build the critical inputs. @Ark_Angel is right though in that if you're thinking along these lines, then you need to set your specifications to the next-generation, as it'd take that long to get there and, when you do get there, you want to be at-par.

The cost though is that you're probably not going to buy much in the interim, at least with Pakistan's budget. We're seeing this unfold with the PAF, which opted to invest in the long-haul with Project Azm.

 

[PAR 5]

It says so in the Italian gov't's report to parliament. Pakistan was cleared for 650 m Euro worth of arms in 2018, second largest buyer after Qatar.

http://documenti.camera.it/_dati/le...rlamentari/IndiceETesti/067/002v01/INTERO.pdf

Pakistan AF is using FALCO UAV
Pakistan AF has currently bought AW139 Helicopters
Pakistan AF is using SPADA SAM
Pakistan Army has not yet finalized the Assault Rifle Project (Berretta)
Pakistan Army bought AW139 Helicopters
Pakistan Navy is considering Otto Melara gun for Naval Platforms
Italy is not doing anything in our startegic area

But all of the above have been going on before 2018. Unless the Italian Parliament considered the cost of delivering 100 some APCM113 free of charge to Pakistan Army, I have no clue how have they come up with this figure of EUR650M only for 2018! But Italians are known to make 'spaghetti' of such figures as well.

 

[Yasser76]

Pakistan AF is using FALCO UAV
Pakistan AF has currently bought AW139 Helicopters
Pakistan AF is using SPADA SAM
Pakistan Army has not yet finalized the Assault Rifle Project (Berretta)
Pakistan Army bought AW139 Helicopters
Pakistan Navy is considering Otto Melara gun for Naval Platforms
Italy is not doing anything in our startegic area

But all of the above have been going on before 2018. Unless the Italian Parliament considered the cost of delivering 100 some APCM113 free of charge to Pakistan Army, I have no clue how have they come up with this figure of EUR650M only for 2018! But Italians are known to make 'spaghetti' of such figures as well.

You can ad Puma vehicles, surplus M109 SPH and more AW139 for Pak Navy. $750M can easily be reached by these procurements alone, do not also forget that we will need European equipment for MILGEM frigates too

 

[Gryphon]

Pakistan has expressed interest in the MBDA Italia CAMM-ER air defence system, according to media reports (dated June 2019).

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Pakistan has expressed interest in the MBDA Italia CAMM-ER air defence system, according to media reports (dated June 2019).

@Tank131 wish list, wish list away.

 

[Tank131]

@Tank131 wish list, wish list away.

Did i call it or what?

If PN can get its hands on CAMM-ER, it will be a game changer for them. A quad packable medium to long range SAM. The stated range is 45km+. With CAMM having been tested and been shown to be effective out to 60km despite a 25km+ stated range, I believe CAMM-ER would likley have an actual range out to ~100km at least, though I would also be happy with the 45km range The interesting thing as I was looking into it is that CAMM-ER is actually likely to be quad-packable as well (just like CAMM). It is at the very least dual-packable as MBDA states that multiple weapons can be stored in small space. It also appears that the footprint of the CAMM-ER canister is the same as that of CAMM with the only difference in dimensions appearing to be length. The equiping of CAMM-ER in quadpacked launchers would make the Jinnah class the best frigate for air defense in PN carrying twice the missiles compared to Type 054A/P and with Harba will outrange the Type 054A/P.

CAMM vs CAMM-ER in Canister


https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/camm-er/

• High rate of fire against multiple simultaneous targets
• Soft vertical launch technology for minimum launch signature and high performance
• Compact missile allows for multiple weapons fit in limited spaces
• Compatible with any surveillance sensor for targeting
• Vertical launch enabling 360° coverage in all launch sectors
• Minimal logistics support and maintenance required

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Did i call it or what?

If PN can get its hands on CAMM-ER, it will be a game changer for them. A quad packable medium to long range SAM. The stated range is 45km+. With CAMM having been tested and been shown to be effective out to 60km despite a 25km+ stated range, I believe CAMM-ER would likley have an actual range out to ~100km at least, though I would also be happy with the 45km range The interesting thing as I was looking into it is that CAMM-ER is actually likely to be quad-packable as well (just like CAMM). It is at the very least dual-packable as MBDA states that multiple weapons can be stored in small space. It also appears that the footprint of the CAMM-ER canister is the same as that of CAMM with the only difference in dimensions appearing to be length. The equiping of CAMM-ER in quadpacked launchers would make the Jinnah class the best frigate for air defense in PN carrying twice the missiles compared to Type 054A/P and with Harba will outrange the Type 054A/P.

CAMM vs CAMM-ER in Canister


https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/camm-er/

• High rate of fire against multiple simultaneous targets
• Soft vertical launch technology for minimum launch signature and high performance
• Compact missile allows for multiple weapons fit in limited spaces
• Compatible with any surveillance sensor for targeting
• Vertical launch enabling 360° coverage in all launch sectors
• Minimal logistics support and maintenance required

I'm not sure if the CAMM-ER will reach out to as far as ~100 km. I think it probably maxes out at around 70 km; otherwise, there'd be little need for the navies adding CAMM-ER (e.g., Spain, Italy, etc) to also add the Aster-30. On that note, wouldn't it be interesting if we get a mixed configuration with the CAMM-ER and Aster-30?

 

[Tank131]

I'm not sure if the CAMM-ER will reach out to as far as ~100 km. I think it probably maxes out at around 70 km; otherwise, there'd be little need for the navies adding CAMM-ER (e.g., Spain, Italy, etc) to also add the Aster-30. On that note, wouldn't it be interesting if we get a mixed configuration with the CAMM-ER and Aster-30?

I would still be good with 70km. That would still make the Jinnah the best air defense frigate in the Indo/Pak theater. Add Aster 30 to that (8 Aster-30s and 32 CAMM-ER would be interesting) it would be great. Also, CAMM-ER would make a perfect replacement for the Aspide-2000s of PAF/PA.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I would still be good with 70km. That would still make the Jinnah the best air defense frigate in the Indo/Pak theater. Add Aster 30 to that (8 Aster-30s and 32 CAMM-ER would be interesting) it would be great. Also, CAMM-ER would make a perfect replacement for the Aspide-2000s of PAF/PA.

MBDA Italia is marketing the CAMM-ER as a replacement for the Spada 2000, but that'd be too soon for the PAF (the Spada 2000 is a relatively recent addition).

The only way CAMM-ER would work for the PAF is as a means to fill-out HiMADS, but it would overlap with what the PA has done with the HQ-16. That said, a CAMM-ER and Aster 30 SAMP/T purchase would be a decent consolation in lieu of imported fighters.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Cough "drass 450" cough cough, (finances only hiccup).

I predicted this sometime back. What is the update here?

Not sure if the PN will proceed with this program until it clears the Hangor payments first.

Isn't that 10 years?

It is very important to clear the payments and if they do not have funds, they should negotiate an instalment plan because it does not look good. BTW I like dealing with Italians... they deal like business men .... no political BS attached.

I am sure the Italians would be able to offer some kind of deferred payment or payment holiday for Pakistani Navy.

Yep, if we look at the modernization of the PN it is simply revolutionary, so finances may keep the program on the back burner.

But these subs don't just offer SSGN a major capability, but they are force multipliers for AShW.

I think that unlike in the past, SSG would only be a payload and a secondary payload, and PN may be interested in a multirole platform.

Turkish firm is also in the race ......

Do you mean STM? Do they have a submarine or a concept? I haven't come across anything worthwhile.

Yep, let's see what the Turks can do, they are good and getting better, but the Italians have design and practical expertise, let's what and see, exciting times for Submariners.

So, whats the verdict?

 

[Rafi]

I predicted this sometime back. What is the update here?



Isn't that 10 years?



I am sure the Italians would be able to offer some kind of deferred payment or payment holiday for Pakistani Navy.



I think that unlike in the past, SSG would only be a payload and a secondary payload, and PN may be interested in a multirole platform.



Do you mean STM? Do they have a submarine or a concept? I haven't come across anything worthwhile.



So, whats the verdict?

The negotiations are on going, the Turks have come up with a serious proposal, the brass are not convinced, the Italians are favourites, and you are 100% right about these subs having SSGN as a secondary priority.

The negotiations are on going, the Turks have come up with a serious proposal, the brass are not convinced, the Italians are favourites, and you are 100% right about these subs having SSGN as a secondary priority.

# not to denigrate our Turkish brethren, they are developing at a good rate in the defence industrial capacity, but the Italians are simply the best at this.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

The negotiations are on going, the Turks have come up with a serious proposal, the brass are not convinced, the Italians are favourites, and you are 100% right about these subs having SSGN as a secondary priority.



# not to denigrate our Turkish brethren, they are developing at a good rate in the defence industrial capacity, but the Italians are simply the best at this.

I feel to know the operational roles PN maybe thinking, but cannot reveal them all so publicly.

Italy may present two options to PN: 1) Fincantieri and 2) Drass.

1) Fincantieri:
Government owned
Lot of Political Clout
Originally Cantiere navale del Muggiano, Bankrupted, Acquired by Fincantieri group.
No organic S/M design capability left in the company
Builds designs from others (TKMS, Russians etc)
Financially supported by Italian Government
Can cause potential scandals
May struggle to meet PN design, operational, and long-term support requirement
Maybe expensive due to massive overhead of Muggiano.
For SWATS, they dont seem to have anything mature, only concepts from here and there. They have some stories from the past, but nothing that is buildable, bankable, and can be put in service in three years.

2) Drass
Privately Owned. Based in Italy, Production in Romania.
Proven and Renowned SMER and Saturation Diving Firm
Have absorbed other Italian companies which made/delivered submarines and SDVs.
Focused on Compact Submarine Designs, modernized improved legacy concepts.
Currently building DG160 for DG450 for unknown Navies.
Seems to have capable design team
Seems to have capable production and support infrastructure
Could potentially help Pakistan Navy make its own submarine design and construction in the future.
For SWATS, Drass has at least two SWATS (160 and 450) under manufacturing, so they may be ahead of others in design, combat system, weapon integration etc. This maybe more believable and convincing for PN.

Lets see who the Ameer ul Behr al Bakistan decides for its emerging Naval force, that will be some force to be reckoned with.