ISRAEL'S PR VICTORY SHAMES NEWS BROADCASTERS

[UKBengali]

Sorry for butting in, but you yourself answered that question.

You say Israel has a strong influence over America, well thats good enough reason for India to maintain relationship with Israel irrespective of what Israel has to offer. India having good relationship with Israel means India maintaining good relationship with America.

Also what exactly is India going to gain from deserting Israel?

And use a different analogy will you? For the sake of decency.

Hmmm.... Respect to you as you are the second Indian that has dared answer my question.

Ok. let us run with India becoming a 30 trillion dollar economy by 2030. The US I suspect will not be much larger and the Chinese could easily be more than 60 trillion dollars. The technology gap between the Indians and US will narrow susbtantially so why would you want to maintain relations with an insignificant country for the sake of the US that has much less to offer you than it does now? I strongly suspect that the Indians will be strong in nuclear power, electronics, biotechnology fields to name a few. Indian companies like Tata and Infosys will grow into mega multinationals. This is a coutry that will not in anyway play 2nd fiddle to the US.

Now I know Indians have this sense of "honour" but you all know deep-down that this relationship with Israel is just temporary to satisfy a specific need in this day and age.

 

[LaBong]

Now please answer what will Isreal have to offer India by 2030 that it already dose not have or could not get from elsewhere? No Indian dare answer this question because they all know they are using the Jews and will dump them like a used condom when they are surplus to requirements. At least you have attempted an answer but i hope this posts helps you understand geopolitics a bit bitter.

India and Israel share common interest in present world, it's as simple as that.

Also a point to be noted, India recognized Israel with the consent of Palestine authority, and that's after stupid Arabs deserted her aftermath of nascent state of Kashmir insurgency. They repent it now, as can be witnessed recent statements from UAE and KSA authorities.

 

[Roybot]

Ok. let us run with India becoming a 30 trillion dollar economy by 2030. The US I suspect will not be much larger and the Chinese could easily be more than 60 trillion dollars.

I doubt the figures of 30 Trillion and 60 Trillion by 2030, but yes lets for the sake of discussion,stick with those figures.

The technology gap between the Indians and US will narrow susbtantially so why would you want to maintain relations with an insignificant country for the sake of the US that has much less to offer you than it does now? I strongly suspect that the Indians will be strong in nuclear power, electronics, biotechnology fields to name a few. Indian companies like Tata and Infosys will grow into mega multinationals. This is a coutry that will not in anyway play 2nd fiddle to the US. Now I know Indians have this sense of "honour" but you all know deep-down that this relationship with Israel is just temporary to satisfy a specific need in this day and age.

See the problem is you are thinking just in terms of war. Think in terms of development. America is 20 years ahead of India in pretty much every field.
When it comes to R&D its not always about the money. You got to consider all the expertise and experience that America has in every other sector.

As far as Israel is concerned, you are seriously underestimating them. Even today they have a lot to offer to the world, not just in terms of weapons technology. And they too have knowledge base and expertise in various modern fields. You only have to look at all the JVs India has with Israel to see the direction in which this relationship is headed. And going back to the point you made earlier, that US has a pretty strong Israeli lobby, so good Indo-US relationship will go hand in hand with good Indian-Israel relationship.

Besides what are we going to achieve by alienating Israel anyways? Will the Arabs start giving us oil for free? Or give us discounts? No they won't, and one day when the oil runs out , who knows, maybe it will be one of those Indian-Israel-America joint venture that will churn out alternative fuel and energy source.

Lastly, India will have to side with other world powers to fend off any aggression from the behemoth China. Its unfortunate that, China decided it was better for it to antagonize India than to bring India in its camp. But thats how it is now. Future looks bright nevertheless

 

[LaBong]

UKBengali, would you please provide us some reasons as to why India should desert Israel? Please don't bring up clichéd morality stuff.

 

[500]

I am also talking about fact. Bangladesh outgrew Israel in the last decade and our economy is now growing at 7% a year. What is your current growth rate? I will tell it to you it is just a shade under 5% a year. Now remember Bangladesh has a lot of potential to speed up it's growth while Israel's will only decline as it gets closer to the levels of countries such as Japan and France .

In 1975 your economy was 58% larger than Israeli.
In 2011 Israeli economy is 103% larger than yours.

If you keep growing very well by 2016 Israeli conomy will be only 72% larger than yours.

Wish u good luck. So whats is ur point?

 

[iPakMan]

Hmmm.... Respect to you as you are the second Indian that has dared answer my question.

Ok. let us run with India becoming a 30 trillion dollar economy by 2030. The US I suspect will not be much larger and the Chinese could easily be more than 60 trillion dollars. The technology gap between the Indians and US will narrow susbtantially so why would you want to maintain relations with an insignificant country for the sake of the US that has much less to offer you than it does now? I strongly suspect that the Indians will be strong in nuclear power, electronics, biotechnology fields to name a few. Indian companies like Tata and Infosys will grow into mega multinationals. This is a coutry that will not in anyway play 2nd fiddle to the US.

Now I know Indians have this sense of "honour" but you all know deep-down that this relationship with Israel is just temporary to satisfy a specific need in this day and age.

I understand that Israel could never offer the "love" and "support" Bangladesh with its 638$ per capita economy can offer or any of the Arab country`s "deep" love for India, but even today Israel is one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world, that makes the difference of life and death to millions of people around the world.
Today USA has an economy 70 times the economy of Israel and they still consider Israel their greatest friend and ally, so no, money isn`t everything.
Knowledge, experience, friendship, determination and the absolute ability to dominate is what bonds two great nations to unbreakable ties.

 

[UKBengali]

I doubt the figures of 30 Trillion and 60 Trillion by 2030, but yes lets for the sake of discussion,stick with those figures.




See the problem is you are thinking just in terms of war. Think in terms of development. America is 20 years ahead of India in pretty much every field.
When it comes to R&D its not always about the money. You got to consider all the expertise and experience that America has in every other sector.

As far as Israel is concerned, you are seriously underestimating them. Even today they have a lot to offer to the world, not just in terms of weapons technology. And they too have knowledge base and expertise in various modern fields. You only have to look at all the JVs India has with Israel to see the direction in which this relationship is headed. And going back to the point you made earlier, that US has a pretty strong Israeli lobby, so good Indo-US relationship will go hand in hand with good Indian-Israel relationship.

Besides what are we going to achieve by alienating Israel anyways? Will the Arabs start giving us oil for free? Or give us discounts? No they won't, and one day when the oil runs out , who knows, maybe it will be one of those Indian-Israel-America joint venture that will churn out alternative fuel and energy source.

Lastly, India will have to side with other world powers to fend off any aggression from the behemoth China. Its unfortunate that, China decided that it was better for it to antagonize India than to bring India in its camp. But thats how it is now. Future looks bright never nevertheless

This is a very well thought out post but I think you are being very pessimistic in just how long it will take Asian countries to catch up with the West.

I would like to use China as an example of just what a very large third world country can achieve when it puts it's mind to it. It can now produce military products that are pretty much the same level as that of the West, bar the US of course. Even the US will have to contend with coming Chinese systems such as the J-20 and the newer Type052D Destroyers that will more than likely be a close match for their systems. In the nuclear field China has just patented it's own 3rd generation nuclear power reactors that are only a little behind the technology in Europe and the US. More than likely China will have caught up by the time 4th generation reactor technology is ready. Also China's train technology now surpasses Europe and Japan. There are many more areas where China has caught up with the West but I canot be bothered to list them all.

While India may not exactly be able to replicate this, it should also have the advantage of both human resources(enough educated people) and also large amounts of money to carry out research and development. Where there is enough brainpower and also money, then pretty much anything is possible. India and China are unique in this respect but it will take India much longer than the Chinese due to the fact that they are much behind China in many fields.

As for the jont ventures with Israel, what is stopping India from joining with more advanced muslim countries like Malaysia and Turkey for this as they turn into industrialised countries in the future? Israelis and westerners are not the only people with brains. As for an alternative form of energy I have the feeling that it will come from Asia and not Europe or the US/Israel.

@Abir - you only have a relationship based on them on a specifc need. When this need runs out they will be surplus to requirements. You are only thinking about here and now. It is too small to be of much use to a very large country like India in the long-term. As india starts catching up with Israelis in the few sectors where they are advanced, they will not be required anymore bluntly. There is no cultural or strategic bond for them to remain relevant in the long term

 

[Roybot]

And lets not forget that majority of Indians believe that Israelis have a right to exist. These two countries have experienced terrorism and insurgency for a very long time and more than any one else. So we understand each others position and point of view. And most importantly it ruffles a lot of feathers.

 

[500]

I would like to use China as an example

China has good relationships with Israel.

Finally we agree on something

 

[LaBong]

@Abir - you only have a relationship based on them on a specifc need. When this need runs out they will be surplus to requirements. You are only thinking about here and now. It is too small to be of much use to a very large country like India in the long-term. As india starts catching up with Israelis in the few sectors where they are advanced, they will not be required anymore bluntly. There is no cultural or strategic bond for them to remain relevant in the long term

You're underestimating the Israelis. They proved their mettle in last 60 years of their existence.

There's no "friendship taller than mountains and deeper than oceans" in geo-politics, some 40 years ago USA sent a CBG to Bay of Bengal against India only to be tailed by Russian Nuke subs, today Indo-US relation seems to shadow that of Indo-Russia relation.

Also we have no reason to desert Israel, like Roy has said, unlike some other countries we are not religiously bonded to hate Israel. We believe in both Israel and Palestine's mutual existence.

Israel stood by us when we were in need, what did the Arabs do? Vetoed us in OIC!

 

[Roybot]

I would like to use China as an example of just what a very large third world country can achieve when it puts it's mind to it. It can now produce military products that are pretty much the same level as that of the West, bar the US of course. In the nuclear field China has just patented it's own 3rd generation nuclear power reactors that are only a little behind the technology in Europe and the US. More than likely China will have caught up by the time 4th generation reactor technology is ready. Also China's train technology now surpasses Europe and Japan. There are many more areas where China has caught up with the West but I canot be bothered to list them all.

I am not going to comment on the weapons and naval ships, but I guess we ll never know how capable these Chinese systems are unless there is a war(God forbid). As for the the Chinese trains, they are based on European and Japanese trains, with some improvements made from Chinese side. Mind you am not saying that China is not capable of producing cutting edge technology by itself, am just pointing out the importance of JV and working with other technological power houses. You only have to look at the number of Chinese students heading to America each year for higher studies and research, to gauge the technological gap that still exists between China and the US, let alone India and the US

As for the jont ventures with Israel, what is stopping India from joining with more advanced muslim countries like Malaysia and Turkey for this as they turn into industrialised countries in the future? Israelis and westerners are not the only people with brains. As for an alternative form of energy I have the feeling that it will come from Asia and not Europe or the US/Israel.

India has always had good relationships pretty much with every country in the world, apart from Pakistan. Relationship with Muslim countries like Malaysia and Turkey even today are quite good, I don't see any reason why they won't be even better in the near future. Although we would like to see Muslim countries support us on issues such as Kashmir. Its always a mutual relationship you see.

 

[UKBengali]

In 1975 your economy was 58% larger than Israeli.
In 2011 Israeli economy is 103% larger than yours.

If you keep growing very well by 2016 Israeli conomy will be only 72% larger than yours.

Wish u good luck. So whats is ur point?

My point is that the Bangladeshi economy is growing quicker than the Israeli one. BTW, we don't get free money to the tune of 1,000 US dollars a year from the rest of the world when all sources are counted. Imagine where we would be now if our 150 million population was given the sort of money that you guys have been getting for the last 60 years. The only factor stopping Bangladesh from growing at 10% a year is the lack of capital to build ports, roads, railways and power stations - the rest of the ingredients currently exist.

@Ipakman - don't take what i say personally as I am angry that Palestinians have suffered a great injustice. Unlike "500" you are mature, intelligent and well-informed.

Ok, Bangladesh has only 638$ GDP/capita but the country is headed in the right direction. Population growth is going towards 1% a year(lower than Isreal btw). GDP growth is now 7% a year and hopefully as the government funnels more and more of the GDP into infrastructure then this should pick up towards 10% a year by the end of this decade.

Industries like shipbuilding , electronics and IT are now starting to take off. We may be Muslims but we are not a nation without hope like Arab countries which would be your experience as far as Muslims are conecerned

 

[iPakMan]

My point is that the Bangladeshi economy is growing quicker than the Israeli one. BTW, we don't get free money to the tune of 1,000 US dollars a year from the rest of the world when all sources are counted. Imagine where we would be now if our 150 million population was given the sort of money that you guys have been getting for the last 60 years. The only factor stopping Bangladesh from growing at 10% a year is the lack of capital to build ports, roads, railways and power stations - the rest of the ingerdients currently exist.

@Ipakman - don't take what i say personally as I am angry that Palestinians have suffered a great injustice. Unlike "500" you are mature, intelligent and well-informed.

Ok, Bangladesh has only 638$ GDP/capita but the country is headed in the right direction. Population growth is going towards 1% a year(lower than Isreal btw). GDP growth is now 7% a year and hopefully as the government funnels more and more of the GDP into infrastructure then this should pick up towards 10% a year by the end of this decade.

Industries like shipbuilding , electronics and IT are now starting to take off. We may be Muslims but we are not a nation without hope like Arab countries which would be your experience as far as Muslims are conecerned

Well UKBengali, the injustice that Palestinians suffer from without a doubt exists. But it is from their Arab brethren that use their suffering to fuel their greed and not from Israel that gave them a better life than they ever had before.
Though i`m sure you disagree with me on that, i`d like to point out two things with regards to Bangladesh:
1.Without a doubt you are no Arabs and have potential to become a great economy, eventually, but the problem is that as Muslims your country sides with other Muslims against Israel.
2.If diplomatic and technological relations were to be opened between Israel and Bangladesh and an authentic friendship were to be developed, your country and mine would greatly benefit from it, but for now that is not the sights and that in itself is a great injustice to your impoverished country.

 

[UKBengali]

Well UKBengali, the injustice that Palestinians suffer from without a doubt exists. But it is from their Arab brethren that use their suffering to fuel their greed and not from Israel that gave them a better life than they ever had before.
Though i`m sure you disagree with me on that, i`d like to point out two things with regards to Bangladesh:
1.Without a doubt you are no Arabs and have potential to become a great economy, eventually, but the problem is that as Muslims your country sides with other Muslims against Israel.2.If diplomatic and technological relations were to be opened between Israel and Bangladesh and an authentic friendship were to be developed, your country and mine would greatly benefit from it, but for now that is not the sights and that in itself is a great injustice to your impoverished country.

Let me be dreadfully honest here. I along with most other Muslims would wish for Israel to just disappear, so the Palestnians could have all their land back. However this is not really realistic and most Muslim countries would go along with a Palestinian state in the 22% of the historic area of Palestine that the Palestinians are asking for now. See, if the Palestnians are given this part of Palestine then most Muslim countries would recognise the right of Israel to exist. After this has happened then expect full normalisation of trade relations between Israel and the rest of the Muslim world.

It is very much in Israel's interest(in the long term that is as it will take time to pay off) to have normal relations with Muslim countries as there are some very large, fast developing Muslim countries in Asia such as Indonesia that you can make much money from. But I suppose since you have the relatively well off Europeans and Americans to give your free goodies then you see no real need to make peace with the Palestinians now.

Lastly we do not support the Palestnians just because they are Muslim, although religion does play a part. Not sure whether you know this but Bangladeshis were prohibited from going to Apartheid-era South Africa as it was a racist country.

 

[iPakMan]

Let me be dreadfully honest here. I along with most other Muslims would wish for Israel to just disappear, so the Palestnians could have all their land back. However this is not really realistic and most Muslim countries would go along with a Palestinian state in the 22% of the historic area of Palestine that the Palestinians are asking for now. See, if the Palestnians are given this part of Palestine then most Muslim countries would recognise the right of Israel to exist. After this has happened then expect full normalisation of trade relations between Israel and the rest of the Muslim world.

It is very much in Israel's interest(in the long term that is as it will take time to pay off) to have normal relations with Muslim countries as there are some very large, fast developing Muslim countries in Asia such as Indonesia that you can make much money from. But I suppose since you have the relatively well off Europeans and Americans to give your free goodies then you see no real need to make peace with the Palestinians now.

Lastly we do not support the Palestnians just because they are Muslim, although religion does play a part. Not sure whether you know this but Bangladeshis were prohibited from going to Apartheid-era South Africa as it was a racist country.

Well might be the problem is that most muslims live in a delusional world where Muslim nations are actually powerful...
There are just two nations that are powerful amongst the Muslim countries: Turkey and Iran, that`s it.
How many muslim countries are there? Around 50.
How many are impoverished? 90% of them.
Instead of trying to fight the Zionists, Crusaders, Hindus, i suggest Muslim countries stop living in a barbaric past and move to a technological future where they might actually be able to feed their children and educate them outside of Mosques that take advantage of young and impoverished minds.
And South-Africa was and is a Christian country, so all non-whites were not welcome regardless of their faith.