Israel’s Air Force Capabilities to Increase 400%

[Desertfalcon]

Desertfalcon, he's talking about strategic depth. Israel has none. Not sure why you believe that contraction will increase Israel's security--you are far too focused on insurgency and too dismissive of a conventional war. Even so, the Gaza withdrawal would suggest that there's no scenario where contraction enhances Israel's security.

Because I think insurgency is by far, the greatest threat to Israel now. Israeli Arabs already comprise over 20% of Israel's population, and that is her own citizens, not the even greater numbers of non-Israeli Palestinian Arabs who live and work within Israel. Any expansion will force Israel to decide if she values democracy, or a future as a more purely Jewish state that practices a kind of "apartheid" on an ever increasing scale with a fast expanding Arab population. The later can and will, only end as it did for the Afrikaaners. Better to embrace a real two state solution, (Which by definition means abandoning Jewish settlements in the West Bank.), and making a durable peace with the Palestinian people. In doing that, Israel can find security.

 

[al-Hasani]

Himalyan is not a difficult barrier because of it's height but it is because of it's width. It is 150-400 Km wide which means that even if you cross Great himalyan range with average height of 6600 mts, you still have to contend with 2-5 more ranges all with average height of 3000+ Kms laid out in hapazard manner, depending upon location.

Indeed.
Here is a map of Israel that illustrates the situation. Topography included.

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Israel is thus most vulnerable from the sea (where most of the population live) and the Negev Desert and the Jordanian side (West Bank) if any army crosses the Jordan river. The Golan heights in the North serve as a natural barrier from Syria and somewhat Lebanon too. They are very important for the security of Israel which is why Israel has been occupying them for 40 years or so now.

 

[Contrarian]

I don't know any current country that has voiced any desire to completely annihilate Israel other than the rabid Mullah's in Iran.

Also it's difficult to tell. It depends on the strength of the attack. I mean in year 2014 it's not realistic to kill the entire Israeli population of which 20% are Palestinian Arabs (both Muslim and Christians).
I think that it's an unrealistic scenario. Also Israel is not THAT small. But I imagine that it would require the annexation of Lebanon, Jordan, Sinai and Palestine. Population wise? Are you only talking about "native" Israeli population here or population that they might incorporate? All of this is obviously highly unrealistic. Again it's difficult to give numbers. Is 8 million not enough? What about 15 million? Where does it end or begin?

Right.
On the population front I was talking about the native population. Jews basically, since it was a State made to protect Jews.

Yes, I know about the swampy terrain of Bangladesh and the rivers there but I was comparing it to the Himalaya's that with all due respect are a more difficult barrier to cross for any conventional force if not an impossible barrier. Although that is only in Northern India.

Yes, Himalayas are an almost impossible barrier.

An invasion would have to depend on its speed/mobility and intensity to succeed. If an invasion force gets bogged down then your not going to succeed against a well prepared military. Then it in that case the invading Army will start getting picked off.
So in that sense while, Bangladeshi terrain is not as difficult as the Himalayas, it serves the purpose equally in that no large Army can march through East.

For a land invasion, the only viable route is from West.

Also India could be vulnerable by the sea but once again which country would want to or is even interested in a full scale invasion of India? That to me sounds HIGHLY unrealistic as well.

True, but that is extremely difficult as well. Even the USN would have difficulty in achieving that.
Its not a question of want or interest. Nations prepare based on other's capabilities, not intent.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

Because I think insurgency is by far, the greatest threat to Israel now. Israeli Arabs already comprise over 20% of Israel's population, and that is her own citizens, not the even greater numbers of non-Israeli Palestinian Arabs who live and work within Israel. Any expansion will force Israel to decide if she values democracy, or a future as a more purely Jewish state that practices a kind of "apartheid" on an ever increasing scale with a fast expanding Arab population. The later can and will, only end as it did for the Afrikaaners. Better to embrace a real two state solution, (Which by definition means abandoning Jewish settlements in the West Bank.), and making a durable peace with the Palestinian people. In doing that, Israel can find security.

I am sure Israel will embrace the two state solution as soon as it is convinced that its counterparts are both sincere and able to enforce the terms of an agreement, but Arafat's duplicity and the demagoguery in the Palestinian educational system make the latter highly unlikely. In the meantime, Ben Gurion airport's vulnerability argues against any withdrawal.

Where does this idea of expansion come from? I am only aware of a tiny, radical minority that even contemplates annexing the entire West Bank. No one in Israel wants to control the Palestinian population centers, and some have even called for the Arab population centers in Israel proper to be transferred to a Palestinian state. Expansion isn't on the table.

 

[474474]

Depends on how one defines "first or second". Size? Quality? The USAF is huge and trained to a very high quality. It has a different culture than the Israeli Air Force though. In that sense, we are more like the Indian Air Force in that we are more traditional spit and polish military. The Israelis just don't go in for that. In terms of quality, the Israeli Air force is equal or better than the USAF. They are more stringent in fighter pilot selection for example. They don't put up with any bureaucratic B.S. and they train constantly and realistically. I remember when they came to participate in an exercise in the USA and "fought" against the USAF and they were extremely impressive....just not very military looking. (Some wore New York Yankees T-shirts instead of their uniform tees and had long hair, etc. ). The Indian Air Force is highly trained and a force to be proud of, for sure. They have also visited the USA for joint war exercises and were impressive. The Indian Air Force is huge as well but not as uniformly equipped, with many older aircraft but well trained and very, very good.

The IAF visits America.

If I may ask, who/what are you? Pilot, maintenance personnel, engineer or just a fanboy?

 

[Desertfalcon]

I am sure Israel will embrace the two state solution as soon as it is convinced that its counterparts are both sincere and able to enforce the terms of an agreement, but Arafat's duplicity and the demagoguery in the Palestinian educational system make the latter highly unlikely. In the meantime, Ben Gurion airport's vulnerability argues against any withdrawal.

No doubt, any future will depend on Palestinians more completely embracing ideals that the extremists among them, despise. Although as I pointed out, Israeli values will be threatened if she chooses any solution that entails controlling even greater numbers of Arabs.

Where does this idea of expansion come from? I am only aware of a tiny, radical minority that even contemplates annexing the entire West Bank. No one in Israel wants to control the Palestinian population centers, and some have even called for the Arab population centers in Israel proper to be transferred to a Palestinian state. Expansion isn't on the table.

Well then someone forgot to tell the people who have created over 12,000 new Jewish settlement units in the West Bank that have been built in just the last ten years. Someone forgot to tell those who also destroyed almost 2,000 Palestinian homes and buildings in that same area. As I said, that is the fuel to the fire that is weakening Israel's security, not strengthening it.

 

[Desertfalcon]

If I may ask, who/what are you? Pilot, maintenance personnel, engineer or just a fanboy?

Career and retired USAF. Enlisted right after I turned 17 years old. Started off as an airmen basic E-1. I eventually became an NCO and then the air force paid for my college. After college, I was commissioned an officer. My career has been in mobile, ground tactical radar, starting as a surveillance operator and ending as a "fighter controller" as an officer, but I served as an advisor in many countries, beginning with my first assignment as one to Saudi Arabia when I was just a teenager.

 

[474474]

Career and retired USAF. Enlisted right after I turned 17 years old. Started off as an airmen basic E-1. I eventually became an NCO and then the air force paid for my college. After college, I was commissioned an officer. My career has been in mobile, ground tactical radar, starting as a surveillance operator and ending as a "fighter controller" as an officer, but I served as an advisor in many countries, beginning with my first assignment as one to Saudi Arabia when I was just a teenager.

So I guess you've had an interesting life, I'm 17 but my life is just school and videogames unfortunately not nearly as interesting. How old were in KSA? What exactly did you advise?

 

[Desertfalcon]

So I guess you've had an interesting life, I'm 17 but my life is just school and videogames unfortunately not nearly as interesting. How old were in KSA? What exactly did you advise?

School and video games? Then you sound like every teenager I know!

I had just turned 18 when I first went to the KSA. I worked with both RSAF and Pakistan Air Force advisers, in building and helping RSAF operate the air defence network for the northern Arab/Persian Gulf region. It was during the Iran-Iraq War so it was very exiting and busy.

 

[474474]

School and video games? Then you sound like every teenager I know!

I had just turned 18 when I first went to the KSA. I worked with both RSAF and Pakistan Air Force advisers, in building and helping RSAF operate the air defence network for the northern Arab/Persian Gulf region. It was during the Iran-Iraq War so it was very exiting and busy.

Hah, I consider myself smarter than the losers I have to put up with everyday
In our generation everything is so much more competitive, opportunities aren't as many. I'd try out of PAF but I don't really have my hopes up - so I can only worry about what majors/degrees are most useful.
So what did you and the pakistanis advise them on?

 

[Falcon29]

a. No, I am not Jewish. I am a Catholic Christian. I'm not even particularly pro-Israel. Although I think Israel has a right to exist and defend herself, I am more sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians and more pro-Arab, if anything.

Most Irish Catholics I know are very pro-Palestinian. I don't care if you're pro Arab, that's not related to the I/P conflict. We Palestinians want to be Palestinians. Not stateless refugees in a country that's not ours. I've yet to see anything out of you that indicates you're pro-Palestinian. Maybe according to you that equates to being pro-Palestinian.

As for Israel existing, it already exists. If you aren't aware though(sarcasm) it's a state without borders that occupies Palestinian land and demoralizes the Palestinian population. There's no freedom of movement, they live under a brutal occupation and are being displaced.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'Israel defending herself', could you cite an instance or two?

b. What is confusing you is that I just don't happen to be one of those people who thinks that because I may have an adversary, or I may be of a certain ethnic group or religion or nationality, that that is going to cloud my military judgement that I have garnered after twenty years serving in uniform. That you can't recognize that Israel's execution of her air war plan in '67 was brilliant, tells me that you are not or have not been a military professional and so your judgement is based on your emotional state, and not one of professional analysis

There's nothing emotional in this. I could care less to admit if their was a 'superb' victory or not. We would admit such a 'superb' defeat had it occurred. Yet, you clearly are confused about what took place in 1967. Egyptian military branch was in the middle of chilling around while the unexpected attack occurred. Not to mention, they gotten much intelligence from the US. Even today the US and several nations from the EU spy on Egypt and Gaza to help Israel locate the few weapons going to the Palestinians to defend their selves from a cynical cycle of mass murder which our nation approves in the form of a green light.

You're an American that really believes what you're told. The Israeli Air Force is top notch, no doubt, due to their hours and advanced technology. Including the few restrictions the US imposes on them , they're allowed much more freedom than other nations on military hardware. But, you go too far when you compare them with the US. Please don't cite examples of them targeting defenseless Palestinians in the past decade with their Air Force or army. The Palestinians have very few light weapons and weren't organized. People make them seem professional and successful over targeting a people's they've been brutalizing for decades. There's no reason to take pride in that, that's shameful and evil.

And their army's training doesn't even come close to NATO standard or US alone. People try to say that Israeli forces train ours on urban combat. Are you joking!? Israeli's kill civilians who go on uprisings in their own occupied territory. They can't fight urban combat for shit! They rely on massive bombing and intelligence. The US is much more suited for urban combat and our soldiers actually have the balls to confront people unlike the latter.

 

[Desertfalcon]

Hah, I consider myself smarter than the losers I have to put up with everyday
In our generation everything is so much more competitive, opportunities aren't as many. I'd try out of PAF but I don't really have my hopes up - so I can only worry about what majors/degrees are most useful.
So what did you and the pakistanis advise them on?

As far as USAF, we helped them integrate their new Boeing E-3 AWACS aircraft into their air defence system + new radars and a new automatic control linkage. They had also just began acquiring the F-15 which was the "teeth" of that defence. The PAF had their own mission with RSAF but they actually had command authority for the region.

 

[Falcon29]

From reading his last few posts, I don't think he is capable of rational conversation anymore than Hazzy997 is when it comes to Israel.

We're much more capable at having a rational discussion than you're.

There's nothing rational in what you say. The US is far ahead in every single aspect than Israel.

And I've actually lived in Gaza during the occupation, I saw their military forces and how they operated.

 

[Desertfalcon]

Most Irish Catholics I know are very pro-Palestinian. I don't care if you're pro Arab, that's not related to the I/P conflict. We Palestinians want to be Palestinians. Not stateless refugees in a country that's not ours. I've yet to see anything out of you that indicates you're pro-Palestinian. Maybe according to you that equates to being pro-Palestinian.

a. I'm not "Irish-Catholic". I'm an American Catholic who is a convert from Protestantism and my ethnicity is English. b. I could care less whether you think I am pro-Palestinian or not.

As for Israel existing, it already exists. If you aren't aware though(sarcasm) it's a state without borders that occupies Palestinian land and demoralizes the Palestinian population. There's no freedom of movement, they live under a brutal occupation and are being displaced.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'Israel defending herself', could you cite an instance or two?

No, because clearly you are one of these posters who is simply unhinged on the subject and has no desire for a rational discussion.

There's nothing emotional in this. I could care less to admit if their was a 'superb' victory or not. We would admit such a 'superb' defeat had it occurred. Yet, you clearly are confused about what took place in 1967. Egyptian military branch was in the middle of chilling around while the unexpected attack occurred. Not to mention, they gotten much intelligence from the US. Even today the US and several nations from the EU spy on Egypt and Gaza to help Israel locate the few weapons going to the Palestinians to defend their selves from a cynical cycle of mass murder which our nation approves in the form of a green light.

Yah, that is really a mythical account. For one thing, Egypt was not simply milling around. Secondly, I don't know about the Europeans but America had no strategic or military relationship with Israel at that time. That did not begin until years later. Israel had no major American weapons of any kind, no American suppliers, no American advice or advisers, in 1967.

You're an American that really believes what you're told. The Israeli Air Force is top notch, no doubt, due to their hours and advanced technology. Including the few restrictions the US imposes on them , they're allowed much more freedom than other nations on military hardware. But, you go too far when you compare them with the US. Please don't cite examples of them targeting defenseless Palestinians in the past decade with their Air Force or army. The Palestinians have very few light weapons and weren't organized. People make them seem professional and successful over targeting a people's they've been brutalizing for decades. There's no reason to take pride in that, that's shameful and evil.

And their army's training doesn't even come close to NATO standard or US alone. People try to say that Israeli forces train ours on urban combat. Are you joking!? Israeli's kill civilians who go on uprisings in their own occupied territory. They can't fight urban combat for shit! They rely on massive bombing and intelligence. The US is much more suited for urban combat and our soldiers actually have the balls to confront people unlike the latter.

And again, these two paragraphs are an example why you are simply too unhinged for rational conversation on the topic.

We're much more capable at having a rational discussion than you're.

There's nothing rational in what you say. The US is far ahead in every single aspect than Israel.

And I've actually lived in Gaza during the occupation, I saw their military forces and how they operated.

I'm glad you are so pro-American. I am too. But I am a military professional who does not let something like patriotism or any personal views I may have for a country, influence my military assessment of them. It's like my take on the Vietnam War. I absolutely loath communism and would love to have seen the Republic of Vietnam achieve victory...but they and America were defeated. It was a hard defeat to take, but it was due only to our own failures and the veracity, bravery, and quality of our enemies there. They had a strategic plan for victory, and we did not. That is not a reflection on the quality of our troops there. Even during the Tet offensive, America handed them their butts, but in the end, the NVA and VC knew what they had to do to achieve victory...and we did not.

See, my views have little to do with how I may "feel" about the parties involved.

 

[Falcon29]

a. I'm not "Irish-Catholic". I'm an American Catholic who is a convert from Protestantism and my ethnicity is English. b. I could care less whether you think I am pro-Palestinian or not.

That's good, you don't need to care. However, you don't need to portray yourself as a Pro-Palestinian since it's probably a joke judging by some of your posts. You're only 'Pro-Arab' since some select Arab nations have good relations with the US and allow them to take lead in the I/P conflict. Try to look at conflict from a POV that doesn't take into account national politics or opinion.

No, because clearly you are one of these posters who is simply unhinged on the subject and has no desire for a rational discussion.

Clearly I'm not. Because I don't give the lies here a free pass doesn't make me irrational. When somebody claims Israel was defending itself against Gaza. That's borderline evil if you take into context what occurred and look at all the details. I will refute such nonsense and that propaganda has no place in this forum.

Yah, that is really a mythical account. For one thing, Egypt was not simply milling around. Secondly, I don't know about the Europeans but America had no strategic or military relationship with Israel at that time.

That did not begin until years later. Israel had no major American weapons of any kind, no American suppliers, no American advice or advisers, in 1967.

They got intelligence, and yes the US withdrew assistance to Egypt. Although about military hardware that came from Europe. Egypt wasn't doing what Israel or the pro-israel crowd were accusing them of doing. They did something very reasonable within their borders.

And again, these two paragraphs are an example why you are simply too unhinged for rational conversation on the topic.

Nope, you're like those people who gloat over Israeli assaults on defenseless people and Mossad operations against defenseless people. Israel hasn't gone up against a nation in the past four decades. Don't over exaggerate them.