Israelli oppression of an occupied people

[SeaGull]

Those who are sympathizing with the Palestinians (which is fair enough) should than have the ability to sympathize for those hundreds of people who Saddam Hussein killed under his dictatorship. Where were the outcrys for the Muslim women who were living worse than animals under the Taliban regime? Why are there no rally's for minority rights inside Pakistan? Jamat-e-Islami loves to rally over everything thats against Israel and America but when was the last time they rallied for technology, education, healthcare, human rights?

Why should we give a dam about other Arab countries when they don't give a dam about Kashmir? Its not our problem, the only countries that we can help and should help are Iran and Afghanistan simply because of our geo-political interests. Its very annoying and frustrating to see people who like to rally over religion with no logical explanation. Why didn't you cry when the Turks bombed the Kurds just recently? Seriously, get over it and fix the mess thats in our home first

Ah Durran - This is not about religion at all.

We would react the same way if if it was an Arab youth throwing some ***** at an old Jewish lady.

And yes I agree with you we need to fix the mess at home even while we condemn and where possible, prevent atrocities elsewhere.

 

[Durran3]

And yes I agree with you we need to fix the mess at home even while we condemn and where possible, prevent atrocities elsewhere.

I am all for preventing atrocities if its within our capability and the only place where i see that as necessary or possible is our backyard, Afghanistan and Iran thats about it. I don't think Pakistan has the capacity or the resources to go around the world trying to save countries that are suffering. People say its not about religion but it very much is. Religion can take a dangerous toll when it becomes politically involved in things where it doesn't need to be. When Israel bombs Gaza and kills innocent civilians the Jamat-e-Islami guys come out with big banners and rally's with thousands of people and they go around burning shops, trucks and hold our government responsible for something we have nothing to do with.

The people that i was referring to in my previous post are people like Jamat-e-Islami not those on this forum who actually want to militarily help the Palestinians and want Pakistan to confront Israel when its not in our national interest. I am all for helping people with money, food, aid but i am not for helping people and giving them more weapons so they can start a war.

The Palestinians have been abandoned by just about everybody except, ironically, Iran. The Arab governments only make silly noises to placate their people but have neither the will, nor the capacity to help them.

Its a sad situation but i see no reason for us to support Palestinians politically or militarily. I am all for supporting them economically, if we could(which we can't either) so where does that leave us? The only people who can now help the Palestinians are Palestinians themselves, every great nation solves its own problems and does not rely on other nations to solve their problems for them no matter how much they are oppressed, harassed or humiliated. Americans dealt with their own civil rights problems, South Africans dealt with its own Apartheid problems, Pakistan/India got their independence by politically defeating the British and the Palestinians need to learn to do the same. The world revolves around one concept, always has and always will-Survival of the fittest

 

[vsdoc]

I believe this "Ideology" goes beyond Judaism or Islam. Before the creation of Israel, Jews and Muslims lived together peacefully for centuries. But it's only now that the people have been manipulated to such a degree that they keep using religion as a scapegoat to justify their occupation and hate for the people of Palestine.

Agree with you 100% Bezerk.

Similarly, while not wanting to derail the thread, but something much closer to home while we are on this discussion, I also believe the "Two-Nation Ideology" goes beyond Hinduism or Islam. Before the creation of pakistan, Hindus and Muslims lived together peacefully for centuries. But its only now (1947 to date) that the people have been manipulated to such a degree that they keep using religion as a scapegoat to justify their creation (of Pakistan) and their occupation (of Kashmir) and hate for the people of India.

Hope this post is on-topic enough as a valid point in the debate to not be deleted by either you or one of the other mods, seeing as we need to be consistent and not selective in our arguments.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Developereo]

I am all for helping people with money, food, aid but i am not for helping people and giving them more weapons so they can start a war.

Israel cannot be defeated militarily. The fight for justice has to be fought in the media and the court of public opinion. The good news is that we have historical facts on our side.

The only people who can now help the Palestinians are Palestinians themselves

Israel continues to get help from the wealthiest and most powerful nations on earth, and you want the Palestinians to fend for themselves?

Courage and conviction are most needed precisely in the face of insurmountable odds

Ironically enough, this has become a true David v/s Goliath fight.

The world revolves around one concept, always has and always will-Survival of the fittest

By that logic, sick people should be allowed to die, poor people should be allowed to starve, and ethnic cleansing should be ignored.

Social darwinism has been rejected by most people.

But its only now (1947 to date) that the people have been manipulated to such a degree that they keep using religion as a scapegoat to justify their creation (of Pakistan) and their occupation (of Kashmir) and hate for the people of India.

It's only now (1947 to date) that the people have been manipulated to such a degree that they keep using religion as a scapegoat to justify the massacre of minorities (Sikhs 1984, Muslims 2002) and their occupation (of Kashmir) and hate for the people of Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka.

 

[vsdoc]

^^^

India never justified Delhi or Gujarat. We collectively condemned these blots on our national history.

Kashmir belongs to India. Pakistan is the country illegally occupying part of our land.

We dont hate Pakistanis man ..... far from it. You need to have been born an Indian and grown up as an Indian to realise that I am not just paying lip service here, much as it goes against the mutual-hatred ideological burden you no doubt seem to be labouring under.

As for your attempt to drag Bangladeshi and Sri Lankans on to your "victim bandwagon" please allow me to pass on that one.

And what's this "our" this and "we" that you keep using with your strategies to defeat Zionist Israel man, as if its some Muslims of the World Unite Jihad? Or has pakistan been voted the official Islamic Big Brother by the League of Islamic Nations?

Outhink and outmaneuver the Israelis? With what ..... that curly haired balding joker we see on national news everyday? Or the 150+ point IQ guy who leads your country?

I agree with Durran here. Concentrate on saving your own country first. That should give you enough on your plate for your current lifetime.

In other words, O Doctor, Heal Thyself.

That is if we are talking real action here and not the popular inter-continental ballistic remote-controlled armchair keyboard warrior missile thing that seems to be popular today.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Durran3]

Israel cannot be defeated militarily. The fight for justice has to be fought in the media and the court of public opinion. The good news is that we have historical facts on our side.

Fair enough but when you say 'We' who are you referring to here? Just the Palestinians or the Arab world.

Israel continues to get help from the wealthiest and most powerful nations on earth, and you want the Palestinians to fend for themselves?

Courage and conviction are most needed precisely in the face of insurmountable odds

Ironically enough, this has become a true David v/s Goliath fight.

True but not all of it is as you've said. Israel does get help but Israel also helps itself by bringing new innovations, technologies, defense and human brain power across the world. Pakistan was once the second country in the world to get the highest aid yet we didn't utilize it as well as efficiently as the Israeli's have done in the past decades. Israel up until 1965 received little to no help from anyone else yet it fought of three major countries and continued to survive even though living and surrounded by all countries who want them wiped from the face of the earth.

Wealthy nations help them and there is a reason for it. Why aren't these wealthy nations helping Russia or countries in Eastern Europe? Wealth in my opinion doesn't come from money it comes from how dedicated, intelligent and logical the people of your country are.

Here are Israel's contributions to the world.

Israel invests in education and “brain power”


• Israel has the world’s highest per capita rate of university degrees.
• Israel has the world’s highest ratio of scientists and technicians in the workforce, with 135 per 1,000 citizens, as compared to 85 in the U.S.
• Israel has the world’s second-highest per capita output of new books annually.
• Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation in the world.

Israel invests more of its Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in research and development than any other country in the world.

• While the world spends an average of 1.5 percent of its GDP on research and development (R&D), Israel commits 5 percent of its GDP to R&D.
• Israel has the third-highest rate of entrepreneurship in the world, including the highest rate among women and people over 55.
• Israel ranks third in the world in per capita patents, behind only the U.S. and Japan.

Israel is at the forefront of hi-tech innovation.


• “The world’s Silicon Valley” and a “global source of innovation,” Israel has the highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world, apart from Silicon Valley itself. Israel became the world’s fourth-largest high-tech economy in the 1990s.
• Israel has the third-largest number of NASDQ-listed companies in the world, with the U.S. and Canada having the fi rst and second.
• Microsoft and Intel built their only non-U.S. R&D facilities in Israel. Over 50 other international giants also established R&D facilities in Israel.
• Israeli researchers developed the cell phone (Motorola-Israel), most of the Windows NT operating system (Microsoft-Israel), the technology for AOL Instant Messenger,the first PC anti-virus software (in 1979), voice mail technology, electro-optic chips and nanotechnology.
• Israelis developed the Pentium 4 microprocessor for desktop computers and the Centrino processor for laptop computers.
• Israel is developing the next generation of Mars Rovers and the first models of the“flying car.”
• Israel is devising protection from disasters, such as an alarm that senses a coming earthquake 30 seconds before it hits, and systems to help people safely exit tall buildings in emergencies, such as collapsible external elevators.

Israel is at the forefront of Biomedical innovation and has developed

- Advanced techniques in helping those who are paralyzed, from motorized robotic arms and legs that respond to brain commands, to procedures for regenerating the spinal cord.
- A Vaccine to treat Anthrax
- Preliminary research for generating molecules that will kill cancer cells but not affect normal cells
- Groundbreaking research for treatments or cures for Type 1 diabetes, Parkinson's and Alzheimer's disease and emphysema.
- Safer methods for diagnosing disease from mini video camera that fits into an ingestible pill and can be used for diagnosing intestinal diseases, to safer imaging techniques for diagnosing breast cancer
- A device that causes acne bacteria to self destruct without damaging the surrounding skin.
The worlds largest Generic Drug company, Teva Pharmaceuticals.

Israel is at the forefront of environmentally friendly innovations

- Israel is the worlds only country that entered the 21st century with a net gain in the number of trees ... lol
- An Israeli scientist pioneered the use of bacteria to clean up oil pollution in oil tankers pipelines and on beaches
- Developed a new technology that eliminates the need for chemicals, pesticides and fungicides in hydroponic agriculture
- The Israeli company Evogene introduced technology that genetically modifies foods naturally through "evolution accelerator Technology" which develops genes from the same plant
- Israeli's developed drip irrigation systems that revolutionized agriculture
- Developed a sun heated water tank, which converts solar energy into thermal energy
- Israeli, American and Canadian researchers formed the nano technology Clean water initiative to work on nanotech-based solution to the water shortages in the middle east and the rest of the world.

By that logic, sick people should be allowed to die, poor people should be allowed to starve, and ethnic cleansing should be ignored.

Social darwinism has been rejected by most people.

You are taking what I said out of context, taking care of sick people is not the same as performing, thriving and surviving on the world stage. Either you fundamentally get your act straight, let go of archaic broken ideologies and government systems that don't work or you can continue to have a nation that fails to blend traditional culture with modernity and have problems for people who are confused between what to accept and what to leave behind. Every nation that has done well has solved its own problems with little to no help from others, its as simple as that.

Charity does not get you out of poverty.

 

[Developereo]

^^^

Your descent into rant mode will serve as notice that you have no rebuttal.

In other words, O Doctor, Heal Thyself.

The proper phrase, for your future reference, is "physician, heal thyself".

That is if we are talking real action here and not the popular inter-continental ballistic remote-controlled armchair keyboard warrior missile thing that seems to be popular today.

I see you are still smarting from my reference to you as an "armchair general"

Fair enough but when you say 'We' who are you referring to here?

"We" is everyone who opposes Israel on moral grounds.

Israel up until 1965 received little to no help from anyone else

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

U.S. government assistance to Israel began in 1949 with a $100 million Export-Import Bank Loan. For the next two decades, U.S. aid to Israel was modest and was far less than in later years. Although the United States provided moderate amounts of economic aid (mostly loans), Israel’s main early patron was France, which provided Israel with advanced military equipment and technology.
[...]
From 1966 through 1970, average aid per year increased to about $102 million and military loans increased to about 47% of the total. In 1971, the United States provided Israel with military loans of $545 million, up from $30 million in 1970.
[...]
the United States stepped in to fill the role that France had relinquished after French President Charles de Gaulle refused to supply Israel with military hardware to protest its preemptive launch of the Six Day War in June 1967. Israel became the largest recipient of U.S. foreign assistance in 1974. From 1971 to the present, U.S. aid to Israel has averaged over $2.6 billion per year, two-thirds of which has been military assistance.
[...]
Recent U.S. Aid to Israel (millions of dollars)
Year Total MilitaryGrant Economic Grant Immig.Grant ASHA Allother
1949-1996 68,030.9 29,014.9 23,122.4 868.9 121.4 14,903.3
1997 3,132.1 1,800.0 1,200.0 80.0 2.1 50.0
1998 3,080.0 1,800.0 1,200.0 80.0 ? ?
1999 3,010.0 1,860.0 1,080.0 70.0 ? ?
2000 4,131.85 3,120.0 949.1 60.0 2.75 ?
2001 2,876.05 1,975.6 838.2 60.0 2.25 ?
2002 2,850.65 2,040.0 720.0 60.0 2.65 28.0
2003 3,745.15 3,086.4 596.1 59.6 3.05 ?
2004 2,687.25 2,147.3 477.2 49.7 3.15 9.9
2005 2,612.15 2,202.2 357.0 50.0 2.95 ?
2006 2,534.5 2,257.0 237.0 40.0 ? 0.5
2007 2,500.2 2,340.0 120.0 40.0 ? 0.2
Total 101,190.8 53,643.4 30,897.0 1,518.2 140.3 14,991.9

Wealthy nations help them and there is a reason for it. Why aren't these wealthy nations helping Russia or countries in Eastern Europe?

Because Russia and Eastern Europe don't have a coordinated lobby and media presence campaigning on their behalf.

Wealth in my opinion doesn't come from money it comes from how dedicated, intelligent and logical the people of your country are.

Here are Israel's contributions to the world.

Yes, everybody acknowledges that the Israelis, unlike the Arabs, have used their time and money wisely. Nobody disputes the dedication, intelligence and contributions of Israeli society. But that doesn't give them the right to engage in ethnic cleansing to take over somebody else's land. The two issues are completely unrelated. By that logic, the Americans should be allowed to colonize any part of the world.

There is no debate that the Arab governments have squandered their wealth, but what does that have to do with the Palestinians' suffering?

You are taking what I said out of context, taking care of sick people is not the same as performing, thriving and surviving on the world stage.

Kinda hard to perform, thrive or even survive when you can't get to work because of army checkpoints, or your crops get destroyed by heavily armed settlers.

Either you fundamentally get your act straight, let go of archaic broken ideologies

Are you saying they should just accept the new reality and give up their rights because the aggressor is too powerful?

and government systems that don't work or you can continue to have a nation that fails to blend traditional culture with modernity and have problems for people who are confused between what to accept and what to leave behind. Every nation that has done well has solved its own problems with little to no help from others, its as simple as that.

Charity does not get you out of poverty.

Extremely simplistic analysis. The Palestinians were driven out of their homes to make room for Jews. They have not had a proper country in which to develop their society. It is unfair to compare them to a 'normal' country or even to Israel.

 

[Durran3]

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

U.S. government assistance to Israel began in 1949 with a $100 million Export-Import Bank Loan. For the next two decades, U.S. aid to Israel was modest and was far less than in later years. Although the United States provided moderate amounts of economic aid (mostly loans), Israel’s main early patron was France, which provided Israel with advanced military equipment and technology.
[...]
From 1966 through 1970, average aid per year increased to about $102 million and military loans increased to about 47% of the total. In 1971, the United States provided Israel with military loans of $545 million, up from $30 million in 1970.
[...]
the United States stepped in to fill the role that France had relinquished after French President Charles de Gaulle refused to supply Israel with military hardware to protest its preemptive launch of the Six Day War in June 1967. Israel became the largest recipient of U.S. foreign assistance in 1974. From 1971 to the present, U.S. aid to Israel has averaged over $2.6 billion per year, two-thirds of which has been military assistance.
[...]
Recent U.S. Aid to Israel (millions of dollars)
Year Total MilitaryGrant Economic Grant Immig.Grant ASHA Allother
1949-1996 68,030.9 29,014.9 23,122.4 868.9 121.4 14,903.3
1997 3,132.1 1,800.0 1,200.0 80.0 2.1 50.0
1998 3,080.0 1,800.0 1,200.0 80.0 ? ?
1999 3,010.0 1,860.0 1,080.0 70.0 ? ?
2000 4,131.85 3,120.0 949.1 60.0 2.75 ?
2001 2,876.05 1,975.6 838.2 60.0 2.25 ?
2002 2,850.65 2,040.0 720.0 60.0 2.65 28.0
2003 3,745.15 3,086.4 596.1 59.6 3.05 ?
2004 2,687.25 2,147.3 477.2 49.7 3.15 9.9
2005 2,612.15 2,202.2 357.0 50.0 2.95 ?
2006 2,534.5 2,257.0 237.0 40.0 ? 0.5
2007 2,500.2 2,340.0 120.0 40.0 ? 0.2
Total 101,190.8 53,643.4 30,897.0 1,518.2 140.3 14,991.9

Because Russia and Eastern Europe don't have a coordinated lobby and media presence campaigning on their behalf

Up until 1965 Israel had to pretty much survive on their own via loans, limited money, military equipment and they did well. The point i was trying to make as to why Israel is now rich and powerful is not just because of wealth that it has received from other countries but because they have the intellectual capacity to work with global super powers. You have to go back and understand where the coordinated lobby and media presence came from? Did it it just come out of thin air or did people work hard and had the willpower to influence big world leaders to crawl on their knees. That Influential power doesn't come willy nilly, it involves trust and sever dedication over many years something Muslim countries have failed at time time again. I guarantee you that if the world gives 10 billion dollars a year to Palestine that money would go down the tank because of corruption and what not as has been the case with Pakistan when billions was given in 1992.

With that being said its not like Palestine doesn't receive money and aid from other countries. Yes it doesn't receive as much as Israel but it does receive enough for the country to survive but when you have irresponsible people like Hamas can you blame the world for not giving Palestine enough money?

Now i am not an Israeli sympathizer, I hate the Israeli government to the core but i will give credit where credit is due and thats that Israel is one of the most efficiently run countries in the world in terms of monetary power. Israel gets aid but it also gives back to the world community if you actually look into the things they've been doing and developing over the past few decades aside from military you will see that they have a great business and strong entrepreneurial spirit only second to America.

Now lets look at Egypt, Jordon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Lebanon... these countries don't make sqat in todays information age, its just easy to blame the west for all ills and not look at the fundamental cultural problems of a country. People will point and find ills and flaws every time at those who succeed or have the capacity to succeed.

Yes, everybody acknowledges that the Israelis, unlike the Arabs, have used their time and money wisely. Nobody disputes the dedication, intelligence and contributions of Israeli society. But that doesn't give them the right to engage in ethnic cleansing to take over somebody else's land. The two issues are completely unrelated. By that logic, the Americans should be allowed to colonize any part of the world.

There is no debate that the Arab governments have squandered their wealth, but what does that have to do with the Palestinians' suffering?

I agree there is nothing to argue here because this is just going round and round.

Kinda hard to perform, thrive or even survive when you can't get to work because of army checkpoints, or your crops get destroyed by heavily armed settlers.

It is and its unfortunate and there is nothing you can do about it at this time. Thats a problem that needs to be settled between Israeli's and Palestinians. Geographical changes and uprisings have happened throughout the world over thousands of years. Its very unfortunate that the native american and first nations people had to be killed and cleansed to make way for Canadians, Spanish and the Americans as well. Whether Mohammad bin Qasim's conquest of India was good or bad can't say. Its also very unfortunate that crusaders slaughtered many Jews and Muslims while they charged down towards Jerusalem and occupied those lands for more than a hundred years.

Some uncontrollable circumstances do occur that people are not ready for and they remain permanent. The occupier will always make the occupied feel like a second class citizen, its not a new phenomenon.

Are you saying they should just accept the new reality and give up their rights because the aggressor is too powerful?

Yes I am unfortunately many will look at this as defeat but i look at it as saving yourself rather than rebelling and dying from a useless mortar shell. Please think for a second,

Why would a party with a militant wing so hell bent on the destruction of Israel – when they the Palestinians are already bleeding as it is and its obvious that the only way for Palestinians to live anything close to a normal life would be extensive talks with Israel – continually gain support is beyond me, here i am talking about Hamas, who are solely resonposble for so many deaths in Palestine from the absolutely ridiculous decisions they make. Fatah atleast presents a realitic approach even though they are just slightly better than Hamas when it comes to diplomacy. You honestly think Israel is going to give Hamas and the palestinians the lands they've occupied back by throwing in a bunch of wussy rockets? A Nation of people who went through the Holocaust and still bear the marks of it will give up to a bunch of loolah's throwing rpg rockets at them?


I agree with your point again on violations from israel when it comes to Airspace, water and all the basic needs. Israel has an extraordinary balance of power shift towards itself. Regarding the Palestinian question, it’s not even fair how lopsided the balance is so what do we do than? What should the Palestinians do in this regards clearly the LAST thing you want to do is Provoke Israel again!!

1) Wait for Israel to actually become soft? Wait for them to grow a conscience and start feeling sorry for Palestine? You and I both know that won't happen simply because of the fact that Israel is surrounded by a bunch of stupid countries who are hell bent on destroying them, Jews, they don't belong in the middle east mentality.

2) Palestinians give in? Well that is not happening any time either and why should they give after all they have been living on these lands for centuries right? Israel and Israelis know that a non-violent Palestine is a great benefit for them. Not to mention at various times the two state solution offered has been more than enough. Yes, there are questions about settlements (something the Israeli state is becoming harsher on), and the question of Palestinian refugees, but they are solvable. A return to Pre-1967 borders has massive support in Palestine and in Israel. However, for any progress – and I mean genuine progress – to be made here, Hamas has to go.

Now for the Important Part..

Palestinians have already suffered so much because of inept, war-mongering politicians and continued interference from the likes of Iran and Syria that its literally unacceptable the state they are living in. The Arab nations won't do jack about it they could care less about the Palestinians. You and i both know they love indulging themselves in Hot white blond women, nice big Cars and SUV's.

Today you get a little food and medicine, tomorrow your house gets bombed as a Hamas security hideout, fact is its in the palestinan interest to simply let Hamas go and Never vote for war mongering parties ever. Israel will not negotiate with Hamas, and despite some bullshit, Israel has a right to not negotiate with a party whose militant wing continually chucks rockets into Israeli territory. Now the real question my friend Developereo is do you think Palestinians have had enough of Hamas? And do you think Palestinians would vote for some sane logical person or would vote for people like Hamas or those with Hezbollah mentality? Because if they do who than is really to be blamed here? and do you see the likes of Hamas as being good for the Palestinian cause?

The fact is Palestine does have to accept the new reality even though they may be a little discriminated against in the start but later down the road as the Arab population increases and a few influential arabs make their way up the ladder Israel will be forced to include law makers of Arab decent into their political sphere and might even get a stronghold in Israeli politics to truly than influence and bring up the rights and legislative law favoring ex-Palestinians.

 

[Developereo]

The point i was trying to make as to why Israel is now rich and powerful is not just because of wealth that it has received from other countries but because they have the intellectual capacity to work with global super powers. You have to go back and understand where the coordinated lobby and media presence came from? Did it it just come out of thin air or did people work hard and had the willpower to influence big world leaders to crawl on their knees. That Influential power doesn't come willy nilly, it involves trust and sever dedication over many years something Muslim countries have failed at time time again.

Admittedly I am not an expert in Jewish history but let me point out a few things. Almost all the Western media and diplomatic wranglings on behalf of Israel have been performed by Ashkenazi (European) Jews. There are ethnic tenions within Israel about whether Ashkenzai Jews have contributed more to Israel's success compared to Sephardic or Ethiopean Jews. The Ashkenazis have been living in Europe for 2000 years; they know the Western system inside out; they are Europeans and share the same cultural traits that have taken Western societies where they are today. In other words, Zionists (from Theodor Herzl and Lord Herbet Samuel onwards) are working the Western system from the inside, while Arabs have been fumbling around and knocking on the outside.

There is no question that Jewish culture has evolved to put an emphasis on education, entrepreneurship and self-reliance -- traits which are severely lacking in Muslim culture. To make it worse, our mullahs actively proscribe concepts like education, democracy and critical thinking as Western ploys to "corrupt" Muslims.

i will give credit where credit is due and thats that Israel is one of the most efficiently run countries in the world in terms of monetary power. Israel gets aid but it also gives back to the world community if you actually look into the things they've been doing and developing over the past few decades aside from military you will see that they have a great business and strong entrepreneurial spirit only second to America.

Once again, I see all this as irrelevant. It's worse than irrelevant. You mentioned the Holocaust but this line of thinking comes dangerously close to the Nazi philosophy: Israel is a 'superior' society so it is destined to win against the backwards Palestinians.

Now lets look at Egypt, Jordon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Lebanon... these countries don't make sqat in todays information age, its just easy to blame the west for all ills and not look at the fundamental cultural problems of a country. People will point and find ills and flaws every time at those who succeed or have the capacity to succeed.

I think you are drifting into another topic here. We are talking about the Palestinians, not the Arab countries. The economic and cultural problems of a group of people (Palestinians) do not diminish their human rights. Even the most primitive tribe in Africa or the Amazon deserves to live in peace without being forced from their homes to make room for a more 'efficient' society.

Thats a problem that needs to be settled between Israeli's and Palestinians.

It doesn't.

When you have one side with F-16s and the other throwing rocks on foot (F-11), there is a moral obligation to stand up for what's right. It goes beyond religion or ethnicity.

Yes I am unfortunately many will look at this as defeat but i look at it as saving yourself rather than rebelling and dying from a useless mortar shell. Please think for a second,

I agree with your point to an extent, which is why I advocate a media struggle. Even the most powerful country in the world must eventually succumb to public opinion. As I am sure you know, America wasn't defeated in Vietnam; it was defeated in Main Street, USA.

Israel may be winning the battle on the ground, but it is losing the battle of public opinion around the world. Many people are hesitant to condemn Israel publicly, because they have successfully used the racism and anti-Semitism cards to stifle any criticism.

A Nation of people who went through the Holocaust and still bear the marks of it will give up to a bunch of loolah's throwing rpg rockets at them?

But they will recognize the need for flexibility once they realize they are gradually eroding the international goodwill due to the Holocaust.

1) Wait for Israel to actually become soft? Wait for them to grow a conscience and start feeling sorry for Palestine? You and I both know that won't happen simply because of the fact that Israel is surrounded by a bunch of stupid countries who are hell bent on destroying them, Jews, they don't belong in the middle east mentality.

Israel will not become soft, but they may get a reality check when they become too much of a public relations liability to their Western backers. Already in the US, the demographics are changing. The Hispanic, Asian, Indian and African-Americans do not support Israel to the extent that the guilt-ridden white Americans do.

2) Palestinians give in? Well that is not happening any time either and why should they give after all they have been living on these lands for centuries right? Israel and Israelis know that a non-violent Palestine is a great benefit for them. Not to mention at various times the two state solution offered has been more than enough. Yes, there are questions about settlements (something the Israeli state is becoming harsher on), and the question of Palestinian refugees, but they are solvable. A return to Pre-1967 borders has massive support in Palestine and in Israel. However, for any progress – and I mean genuine progress – to be made here, Hamas has to go.

The two-state solutions offered were media stunts which would not be acceptable to any country. Do you know that (supposedly) the best proposal offered was by Ehud Barak, and it consisted of a Palestinian "state" embedded with several Israeli settlements linked by Israeli roads. Who on earth would accept a country like that?

These were all media stunts to make the American administration and the Israelis look good at the expense of the Palestinians.

Two things Israel will simply not negotiate are the status of Jerusalem, and the Palestinian refugees' right of return.

The fact is Palestine does have to accept the new reality even though they may be a little discriminated against in the start but later down the road as the Arab population increases and a few influential arabs make their way up the ladder Israel will be forced to include law makers of Arab decent into their political sphere and might even get a stronghold in Israeli politics to truly than influence and bring up the rights and legislative law favoring ex-Palestinians.

This simply will not happen, for two reasons.

The current Israeli Arabs are second-class citizens within Israel. Despite all the Israeli propaganda, the fact is that they do menial, low level jobs, and face discrimination throughout Israel.

Secondly, and most importantly, Israel refuses the Palestinians' right of return. That is an utterly non-negotiable position of Israel, precisely for the reasons you give. The Palestinians simply will not be allowed to go back to their homes in present-day Israel. The most they can hope is to live next-door in a Palestinian state, which will become a Mexico-US relationship, supplying cheap labor to fuel the Israeli economy. They will never be allowed to get Israeli citizenship.

 

[Kasrkin]

Kashmir belongs to India. Pakistan is the country illegally occupying part of our land.

DON'T go off topic. That goes for the rest of you as well. If you want to make this dubious assertion then you're welcome to do so in the Kashmir thread, where it will be causally debunked (as usual) but not here. Pakistan has not used Islam to 'justify' anything illegal, be that the creation of Pakistan itself or Pakistan's stand calling for a solution of the Kashmir Dispute through a practicing of the universal right of self-determination, endorsed by the international community but disregarded by India in regards to Kashmir. By that logic Hinduism and religion was the justification of India's unilateral annexation of Junagarh and Hyderaban Deccan. Any more skewed takes on the issue from anyone is welcome in the Kashmir thread.

 

[hembo]

What is your malfunction? You hoped to sow seeds of hate in this month of Ramazan (that's right Ramazan by trying evoke a emotional response by a single idiot and identified the idiot not as a delinquent, an idiot but as a Jew - Now why would you do that unless what you want to do is spread a little ramazan hate?? Why would you do that?
~~~..

You still wondering? Just take a look at the signatures at the bottom of their posts and you will know who are the ones that wants some more hatred in our already flaggering, oh so insignificant human lives!!

At times, I am so ashamed of our, so called educated, hate mongers!!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

That is not entirely true, I have many times clearly highlighted on what I believe the Palestinians need to do and what Israel needs to stop doing. I am also the only person on PDF that has been crying about Darfur for a very long time, more than anyone else here and anyone that has actually read my posts knows this. In fact back in University I coordinated an event and we managed to raise close to 7000 dollars which we all donated to UNICEF while creating awareness about the Genocide as well.

Here i have clearly highlighted what i believe needs to be done from both sides. I suggest you read the whole conversation. I have clearly mentioned Darfur there as well and this post is from 06-03-2009

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...-pakistan-recognize-israel-12.html#post391093

Here is another post about Kashmir, i suggest you read some parts of this thread 06-11-2009

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...mir-against-indian-atrocities.html#post397820

Here is a thread where i raised the issue of Guantanamo

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...se-muslims-now-living-bermuda.html#post400316

Here is another thread where i used brought up Darfur Again and my argument against Wahabism, i suggest you read the full thread if you have time, you don't have to though. 07-06-2009

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/29366-saudis-give-nod-israeli-raid-iran-6.html#post418086

Here is another post 07-30-2009

http://www.defence.pk/forums/genera...-hinduvata-leaders-their-bs-7.html#post438333

http://www.defence.pk/forums/genera...-hinduvata-leaders-their-bs-8.html#post438956

Same old issue of Israel and Palestine again and again where I mentioned Darfur for a 100th time.. 08-17-2009

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...-pakistan-recognize-israel-16.html#post453005

--------------

My argument is not that i don't sympathize with them, my argument is that instead of trying to pick up arms for people around the world maybe we need to look at what our problems are. If you think you can help a few people in Palestine, Darfur or some place than do so, no one is stopping you. I did what i could to help maybe a few people of Darfur by donating some charity that we raised and like you said you have to select and use your limited time.

The problem with this argument is that people sometimes have so much hatred that they are willing to take up arms for something that is not in their interest and that is where I believe the problem lies. If you think you can help by all means go ahead but don't drag the country into a confrontation that seems unnecessary for us simply because of religion.

Durran,

Kudos to you for all the work you have done and the tangible steps you have taken to raise awareness about issues and improve the lives of people.

Now, when I made the comment about you having double standards, I was not suggesting that you actually did have double standards, but that your line of logic in criticizing those who raise the issue of Palestinian occupation would lead me to believe that you, like those you criticized, perhaps had double standards since I did not know of your opposition to similar issues like Darfur.

It would be completely unrealistic to expect that anyone who comments on say Israeli atrocities first furnish a CV or statement indicating that he/she has supported XYZ cause other than the Israeli occupation, to verify that they are not 'hypocrites', don't you agree?

So in the absence of that, there is no reason to denigrate those who raise the issue, or others, so long as you cannot show that they are hypocrites.

Nor am I suggesting that 'people take up arms', or advocate that their nation 'take up arms' to resolve injustice around the world (be it Darfur or Palestine) when there is much to be solved at him for us Pakistanis (poverty, illiteracy, extremism and Kashmir).

But that does not mean that we cannot talk about the atrocities in Palestine and Darfur or that we cannot condemn them - advocating taking up arms and vocalizing concerns about atrocities, and raising awareness about them, are two different things IMO.

 

[dabong1]

Its a sad situation but i see no reason for us to support Palestinians politically or militarily.

Would you have a problem if the Palestinian govt wanted to buy defence equpiment from pakistan and was willing to pay the market rate?

 

[Kasrkin]

That is not going to happen. Simple. Atleast not before the long running dispute is resolved and the Palestinians are given their own sovereign nation. The only way Pakistan can supply arms to them now is if we do it Iranian style support to Hamas and Hezbullah. Which means utilizing a long back market chain that ends with tunnels smuggling weapons into Gaza through the Israeli-Egyptian border. But like I said, no one would mind if we did it the legal way should the Palestinians ever achieve sovereignty.

 

[Durran3]

Would you have a problem if the Palestinian govt wanted to buy defence equpiment from pakistan and was willing to pay the market rate?

First of all Palestine is not yet a legal country for Pakistan to legally sell weapons to. Second of all they don't have the economic power to buy military equipment from any respectable country and third Pakistan has no reason to help Palestine militarily. We are not Arabs and its not in our interest to sell weapons to Palestine and start a confrontation with Israel or its Allies end of story. If you want to help Palestinians go there and build a school or something or let the government provide some economic aid but thats about it.