israeli holocaust of gaza (Discretion Advised)

[Kasrkin]

This is war. It's not HOLOCAUST and it's not GENOCIDE.

Well it’s probably a war crime according to UN and other human right organizations, and it is most certainly disproportionate.

Most of Islam seems happy to fight the Israelis to the last Palestinian. Most palestinians never miss a chance to miss a chance.

Agreed.

 

[Jihad]

holocaust, genocide, etc...

Pretty loose with the ol' rhetoric for a bunch of rocket slingers who've no clue where any of their 6,000 plus rockets will land. Nor care. Funny that HAMAS had no ability to range Beersheba before the truce.

Grads afterwards and more range.

Now let's see about that holocaust/genocide thingy. 1000 dead and half are HAMAS in a combat zone as densely populated as Gaza over more than two weeks. Sure as hell isn't the Russians in Grozny, I know that.

This is war. It's not HOLOCAUST and it's not GENOCIDE. Maybe Gazans will be more careful who they vote for next time. Can't say they weren't well-informed about what HAMAS is all about. Slingin' rockets indiscriminately is HAMAS raison d'etre. Tough raising money if you're not trying to live up to the ol' charter.

You reap what you sow. What leadership by HAMAS! These people are pawns for the Syrians and Iranians and all the lame, bloodthirsty, vicarious thrills and titillation of arabs and muslims everywhere but Gaza.

Most of Islam seems happy to fight the Israelis to the last Palestinian. Most palestinians never miss a chance to miss a chance.

Spare us your pro-Israeli bullsh!t.
The Palestinians did get the approval of the whole world including the U.S. + Israel to democratically vote for a party, your beautiful country who pushes for democracy everywhere in the world has been pushing for the Palestinians to pick their government.
You're saying they voted for their own misery? So did they ask for being exterminated are you saying?
The way I see it: U.S.+ Israel support Palestinians in their choice for democracy > Palestinians vote > Hamas elected > U.S. + Israel not so fond of Hamas > Democracy wiped away by the Americans + Isreal > Palestinians getting murdered once again > U.S. is nowhere to be found as "protector of the innocent" and as " a dedicated nation vowing for minorites to be independent and be "free", afterall, that's what the U.S.'s goals were or are?

Let's see how you'll feel if one of your loved ones gets killed in this genocide by Israel, you'll be talking a little different then.
1000+ Palestinians dead so far and, 40% of them includes innocent women and children, of the wounded, atleast 3,820 of them were women and children, these figures have most likely increased while i'm typing right now.
You as an American, have never experienced something of the magnitude regarding the Palestinian massacre.

I'd like to see how your reaction would be if a nation sent fighter jets over the skies at where you live somewhere in the states, tanks rolled in and state of the art helicopters are pounding the place together with the high tech fighter jets.
I'd like to see your nation getting just a SLIGHT taste of what the Palestinians have to go through everyday, maybe then will you realize how wrong you are when you say that the Palestinians have brought this upon themselves.
But no, the U.S. has never experienced an attack on their own soil apart from 2 planes crashing into the twin towers, even then you could see how terrified the American people were and how fragile actually, as if U.S. as a whole was struck by those planes.
But those planes are NOWHERE even NEAR the situation in Gaza.
You're living comfortably, your country hasn't experienced anything like this before, never been harmed, and I cannot believe how easily you can talk about others getting slayed and at the same time blaming the victims for it.

Let's see what happens when the U.S. is totally under siege, entire areas in the U.S. being bombed to smithereens, you experiencing that as an American, you're totally isolated, barely having basic needs such as water or food, the whole world simply watches and does nothing while the fightning doesn't seem to end.
Will you blame yourself? I don't think so, you'd be crying like a little girl because you've just seen a little boy die by a mortar or an enemy tank shell.
You have absolutely no right to dismiss the fact that it's a genocide, this is no war at all, it's just target practice for those Zionists.
But then again, your nation has waged so much war after it got declared and recognised as a superpower, you people are used to it because your homeland is most likely never touched or reached by the enemy itself, as long as America is safe right?

What a hypocrit.

 

[S-2]

"... it is most certainly disproportionate."

Give me your definition of "disproportionate", please?

 

[Kasrkin]

Give me your definition of "disproportionate", please?

My 'definition' of disproportionate would be 500+ civilian deaths as opposed to maybe 8. Israel DOES not have the moral high ground, but Palestinians do since my calculations indicate that the ratio of military-civilian kills inflicted is actually more decent on their part. And that’s not even considering the unbalanced proportion of innocent death, injury, horror, suffering caused by the respective factions.

 

[cefarix]

"... it is most certainly disproportionate."

Give me your definition of "disproportionate", please?

Palestinians dead: 1000+
Israelis dead: 10+

Palestinian international aid: at most, a few million dollars, through various Muslim charities, some of whom have recently been forced to shutdown. Gaza has been a virtual prison.
Israeli international aid: $3 billion yearly from the US alone. And that's just for the military.

Palestinian military might: Katyusha rockets, AK-47s, Mujahideen fighters
Israeli military might: F-16s, 2000 pound bombs, phosphorous bombs, missiles, Merkava tanks, etc

Need I go on?

 

[Jihad]

"... it is most certainly disproportionate."

Give me your definition of "disproportionate", please?

Haven't you seen just 1 picture?
This page, see the boy crying with his mother dying in his arms both covered in blood?
WHAT IS DISPROPORTIONATE FOR YOU?!

 

[S-2]

What is the minimum force required to remove a threat?

Is force employed with distinction to targets?

As only 500 of 15,000 fighters have been killed, one wonders if Israel has employed too few forces to solve the matter after two weeks of combat. If less than half of the approx 1000 dead are civilians, I'd suggest that one HAMAS fighter per civilian dead in this dense population speaks to distinction.

Effort is therefore made to target and force may actually be LESS than necessary to eradicate the threat.

Conversely, we know that no such concerns occupy HAMAS. Bummer for the Palestinians. HAMAS charter makes clear what they're about and it's not up to Israel to wait for HAMAS to perfect their targeting accuracy to catastrophic consequence when intent to reap mayhem is at the forefront of their agenda.

As it turns, it's likely that HAMAS is disproportionate by it's purposeful targeting of civilians. Thank God they're so inept. That ineptness, however, can't be forever counted upon by Israel.

Might help if HAMAS restricted their active combat against uniformed soldiers of Israel. Of course, that would mean a stand-up fight. They don't and never have bothered to do so. It's likely they may have to now.

Oh well. Those are my thoughts.

 

[Jihad]

What is the minimum force required to remove a threat?

Is force employed with distinction to targets?

As only 500 of 15,000 fighters have been killed, one wonders if Israel has employed too few forces to solve the matter after two weeks of combat. If less than half of the approx 1000 dead are civilians, I'd suggest that one HAMAS fighter per civilian dead in this dense population speaks to distinction.

Effort is therefore made to target and force may actually be LESS than necessary to eradicate the threat.

Conversely, we know that no such concerns occupy HAMAS. Bummer for the Palestinians. HAMAS charter makes clear what they're about and it's not up to Israel to wait for HAMAS to perfect their targeting accuracy to catastrophic consequence when intent to reap mayhem is at the forefront of their agenda.

As it turns, it's likely that HAMAS is disproportionate by it's purposeful targeting of civilians. Thank God they're so inept. That ineptness, however, can't be forever counted upon by Israel.

Might help if HAMAS restricted their active combat against uniformed soldiers of Israel. Of course, that would mean a stand-up fight. They don't and never have bothered to do so. It's likely they may have to now.

Oh well. Those are my thoughts.

What exactly do you mean with a stand-up fight?
You mean state of the art weaponry and equipment vs an AK-47?
The Israelis putting up a stand up fight? You mean Merkava tanks pointing their cannons at Palestinian teenagers who are only armed with rocks?
It's obvious you're more concerned with the zero deaths on Israeli side where the rockets hit no civilians at all, then with the thousand Palestinian deaths and thousands more wounded.
A real "bummer" for the palestinians as you call it, but at the same time you "Thank God" that Hamas rockets are inept so that Israeli life is spared.
You say Hamas is being disproportional by targeting their rockets at Israeli civilians? Then what about white phosporous being used by Israel on Palestinian civilians? What about the women and children dieing everyday? Ah yes, Israel is only after Hamas, and any Palestinian civilian casualties are "regrettable" and a "bummer" according to you.
Your comments seriously disgust me, do me a favor if you wish and keep your thoughts for urself.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The Israeli assault is inhumanely disproportionate. How many rockets were fired into Israel with how many casualties in the month before the assault?

Israel went into this knowing full well there woudl be significant collateral damage, and it did so despite there being minimal rocket fire from Gaza and even less casualties from that rocket fire.

As S-2 indicated in his post, "Maybe Gazans will be more careful who they vote for next time" - that is precisely what the Israelis are attempting to accomplish - isolating and alienating Hamas from the Gazan population, and they are doing it by killing gazans, men, women and children, ensuring that Aid organizations such as the UN find it extremely hard to provide relief to the Gazans, thereby increasing the misery for Gazan's, and perhaps even forcing some of the organizations to shut down.

It is disproportionate and out and out State terrorism.

As for the argument that Hamas should not have fired the rockets it did, I think the better argument is that Israel shoudl have accepted in principle that it would withdraw to the 1967 border in exchange for a durable peace and dismantle all settlements and agree to share Jerusalem.

Instead Israel acts like the occupation is a Game show - if the Palestinians do not accept one particular peace offer at one point in time. Israel takes a 'briefcase' away, and the next offer is lower, and if that offer is not accepted, more settlements are built, another 'briefcase' is taken away, and the next offer is even lower.

Hamas exists because of Israeli occupation and insincerity and greed. Their violence is a direct result of Israeli greed and violence. In a few years, barring an equitable resolution to Palestinian statehood, we will be back in the same situation, if not with Hamas then with some other extremist organization, because the root cause here, Israeli occupation and greed for more and more land, does not look like it will be addressed.

 

[Flintlock]

Palestinians dead: 1000+
Israelis dead: 10+

Palestinian international aid: at most, a few million dollars, through various Muslim charities, some of whom have recently been forced to shutdown. Gaza has been a virtual prison.
Israeli international aid: $3 billion yearly from the US alone. And that's just for the military.

Palestinian military might: Katyusha rockets, AK-47s, Mujahideen fighters
Israeli military might: F-16s, 2000 pound bombs, phosphorous bombs, missiles, Merkava tanks, etc

Need I go on?

If you ask me, it simply means that Israelis have been far more competent and successful that Gazans in protecting their own people.

But as someone said, "Terrorism is the weapon of the weak".

 

[Jihad]

If you ask me, it simply means that Israelis have been far more competent and successful that Gazans in protecting their own people.

But as someone said, "Terrorism is the weapon of the weak".

Your post makes no sense or whatsoever.
How do you protect your nation by destroying another and leaving it in misery? (Palestina, which isn't even a nation due to Israels occupation) What is self-defence called nowadays? According to Israelis, self defence is killing thousands of Palestinians and isolating Gaza once again.
What do people understand under the term of "self-defence"!?

 

[Pashtun]

"... it is most certainly disproportionate."

Give me your definition of "disproportionate", please?

And you give me your definition of 'war', please? (referencing your previous post, where you said it's a war).

Because the war is usually between two "soverign" nations, not a tyrant nation, that is openly zionist, which is occupying a 46x9 mile area from past few decades under brutal oppression.

And If you haven't noticed already, it's the Tanks, F16s, Apache Helicopters, world's 2nd most advance and 4th largest Army in the world against Flesh and Bones and Stones.

The Israel did not get into stop rocket attacks. Israel got into to destroy Palestinian infrastructure, their leadership, their schools, universities, ministries, grids, pumps, so it can be reduced to a miserable ghetto, and giving a chance to palestinians to move out of it for better life, hence leaving the lands for Israel.

So How exactly does it seem to you as a war? Specially when there's such impeccable imbalance between the two parties. It's like an Ant and an Elephant, while Elephant sitting on top of Ant's house, for as long Ant remember.

This is pure massacre of weak and defenseless people, occupied by an openly zionist state. Whatever palestinians are doing, are not "offensive actions" they are "defensive reactions" to israeli aparthied actions. Do not confuse defensive reactions with offensive actions.

Reminds me of Ariel Sharon's plan about Palestinians - "Jordan is palestine".

Do you know why he said that?

 

[Pashtun]

If you ask me, it simply means that Israelis have been far more competent and successful that Gazans in protecting their own people.

But as someone said, "Terrorism is the weapon of the weak".

Competent? wth? Do you remember what happened in Lebanon in 2006? a handful of organized Militia ruined the pride of world's biggest bully and its allies?

You are forgetting one thing, Isarel is supported by mighty western nations, who just shipped a shipload of arsenal to Israel the other day, so Israel can poung, defenseless and weak people of Gaza.

Yes, it is certainly terrorism on the accord of Israel. You are forgetting that its Israel that i brutally occupying Palestine from past 60 years. It is israel that is committing War Crimes (all international agencies confirmed that), and it is Israel that is using heavy force against stone hurling children.

You must know that half of Gaza's population is children and 75% of the total are women and children. Do you think Israel doesn't know that?

Howcome someone defending his/her family, people, lands became terrorists? Doesn't they have a God given right to defend themselves? Or do you support tyranny, injustice, operation (and I wont ask occupation, since you already support occupation in Kashmir).

What I fail to understand is, being a human, how do you call the defensive reactions of oppressed and occupied people as "terrorism"?

Do you have a moral obligation, or do you know what that thing is?

 

[S-2]

"Israel went into this knowing full well there woudl be significant collateral damage, and it did so despite there being minimal rocket fire from Gaza and even less casualties from that rocket fire."

Well here's that "minimal" rocket fire-

IDF Spokeperson On Rocket Attacks

Let me summarize-

"Rocket Statistics

Today, over 950,000 Israelis live within range of rocket and mortar attacks.

There have been approximately 7,200 rockets (Grads, Qassams) and mortars launched at Israel since 2005.

During 2008, there have been 1755 mortars shells, 1720 Qassams rockets, and 75 Grad missiles launched at Israel.

Since Hamas’ election there has been a steady increase of these rocket attacks against Israel’s citizens:

Between Israel’s evacuation of Gaza and the election of Hamas (Aug. 15, 2005 – Jan. 25, 2006), there was an average of over 15 rocket and mortar attacks a month.

Between Hamas’ election and Hamas’ forceful takeover of the Strip (Jan. 25, 2006 – June 14, 2007), there was an average of over 102 attacks per month—an over 650% increase.

Between Hamas’ takeover and the start of the Tahadiya (State of Calm), (June 14, 2007 – June 16, 2008), there was an average of over 361 attacks per month—an increase of an additional 350%.

On Nov. 4 – 5, Israel launched Operation “Double Challenge”, targeting a tunnel Hamas was building as part of a plan to kidnap Israeli soldiers.
From the end of Operation “Double Challenge” until the end of the Tahadiya, (Nov. 4 - Dec. 19, 2008) a period of only a month and a half, there were 170 mortars, 255 Qassams, and 5 Grads fired upon Israel’s civilian population centers.

Since the end of the Tahadiya (Dec. 19, 2009) until the beginning of Operation “Cast Lead,” (Dec. 27, 2008) a period of little more than a week, there were approximately 300 mortars and rockets fired onto Israel.
Since the begining of Operation ”Cast Lead”, there have been an additional 500 launches, 284 of which have been verified as rockets (both Qassams and Grads), and 113 as mortars."

That's 3500 this year and 7200 since 2005.

Collateral is a function of the enemy's tactics as much as population densities or willful neglect. Especially here. Collateral damage is calculated from Damascus' H.Q. of HAMAS with great expectations. Perhaps that explains HAMAS maintaining it's Gaza H.Q. under the city's largest hospital. Doesn't remove Israel's obligations to it's citizens one bit and isn't illegal if reasonable effort is expended in pursuit of targets. Collateral implies the legitimacy of the target, after all, and only speaks to the incidental by-product of those attacks.

"It is disproportionate and out and out State terrorism."

That's fat coffee-house rhetoric. It's war upon a gov't that's rejected the Group of Four requirements to legitimacy, possesses a clear intent to destroy Israel, and has manifested it repeatedly by rocket and other attacks. Same as FATA- you can't have it both ways and it's as simple as that.

HAMAS could always surrender it's men and weapons to end the misery. That would be a noble thing. Easy enough to recruit back.

HAMAS will agree to a ceasefire should Israel pull all it's forces out of Gaza, cease all operations, and open all gates. HAMAS will not refrain from firing rockets. Doing so would be victory for the IDF, according to Abu Marzouk here-

Abu Marzouk

Sweet guy. Comfortable offices too from the photo. Beats Gaza anyday.

"As for the argument that Hamas should not have fired the rockets it did, I think the better argument is that Israel shoudl have accepted in principle that it would withdraw to the 1967 border in exchange for a durable peace and dismantle all settlements and agree to share Jerusalem."

Red herring but I'll indulge- Durable with whom, again? HAMAS which won't consider recognizing Israel's right to exist. Let matters continue. Far better for Israel if that's what you've to offer.

"Israeli occupation and greed for more and more land, does not look like it will be addressed."

Which explains why we've a palestinian state today after the west bank and Gaza were captured and occupied in 1967. One that can't play by the rules, mind you, and whose ruling party has a disconcerting political philosophy which precludes the recognition of it's neighbor's to even EXIST.

 

[Pashtun]

Ahh, the use of Israeli sources, justifying their massacre of defenseless people.

And I am the king of england.