Israel targets ANOTHER Gaza school: Tank strike kills 15 Palestinians and injures 90 others in UN cl

[Falcon29]

That's an important question, once you've termed Hamas as a terrorist organisation then you need to assume that they will defy the laws dictating conduct in warfare, after that you need to gauge whether you can do the same. If you know they are holed up in a school with kids inside and you know they don't care how many of them end up dead, is it still right to hit that school?

There are no fighters in the school. Nobody, not even Israel has made that claim yet. This moron is pulling excuses out of his ***.

Stop responding to him and giving credibility to his statement.

 

[Dillinger]

There are no fighters in the school. Nobody, not even Israel has made that claim yet. This moron is pulling excuses out of his ***.

Stop responding to him and giving credibility to his statement.

Its not just for this horrendous incident, but a question pertaining to any such scenario, bombing a school with kids in it can't be right, unless someone's put a WMD about to go off in it or something, Israel can and should vow not to go after schools at least when there are children inside no matter who else they think is taking shelter within.

 

[Hyperion]

Going by your judgment, Israeli Army has the right to start acting like Hamas and use such disproportionate force with impunity?

One is a branded terrorist organization and the other used to be a well trained Army.............. where on earth do trained Armies go on a rampage to teach the insurgents a lesson by blowing up schools with children in them? Do you think for a moment that the Israeli Army didn't know that there were children in there?

Sorry mate. I don't buy it. I don't think anyone with an iota of decency would.

I ask a simple question:
Why should Israel be held to a different standard than Hamas WHEN Hamas, as brutal as it is is still considered kosher by 99.99% of Muslims.

And despite the fact that Hamas likes to get Palestinians killed and using it for PR by using Palestinian hospitals and crowded areas for attacking Israel and hoping exactly this - that they will be spared of reprisals because they are using civilians as a shield.

Would you like them to get away with this? Or teach them that hiding behind civilians is only likely to get the civilians and killed as well along with them.

 

[Dillinger]

@Contrarian

Yaara, the WHOLE point of legally distinguishing (in international law, under the UN's regulations etc.) between state actors who operate under the command of a nation which has a place in the comity of nations and terrorist IS that one is held to a higher standard than the other. Part of the reason an organisation is labeled as a terrorist organisation is that they refuse to be held to said standards, that they are willing to target indiscriminately to achieve their goals.

 

[Hyperion]

Dude, you advocating The Palestinian Cause, would inadvertently do more damage to it, than any benefit.

There are no fighters in the school. Nobody, not even Israel has made that claim yet. This moron is pulling excuses out of his ***.

Stop responding to him and giving credibility to his statement.

 

[Contrarian]

Its not just for this horrendous incident, but a question pertaining to any such scenario, bombing a school with kids in it can't be right, unless someone's put a WMD about to go off in it or something, Israel can and should vow not to go after schools at least when there are children inside no matter who else they think is taking shelter within.

The second they make such an announcement, all schools of Palestine will become the local headquarters of Hamas while running the school side by side. All rocket launches will be from schools with kids inside. All tunnels will be from inside schools. What then?

Going by your judgment, Israeli Army has the right to start acting like Hamas and use such disproportionate force with impunity?

One is a branded terrorist organization and the other used to be a well trained Army.............. where on earth do trained Armies go on a rampage to teach the insurgents a lesson by blowing up schools with children in them? Do you think for a moment that the Israeli Army didn't know that there were children in there?

Sorry mate. I don't buy it. I don't think anyone with an iota of decency would.

Hyperion, lets leave the moral lecturing out of this - 'iota of decency' and all. They contribute nothing of substance to a doctrinal question. Best to limit these phrases to facebook.

What exactly is a trained Army supposed to do when a terrorist organization constantly uses civilian institutions and buildings to launch its wars? Were you heading IDF, would you send your soldiers many kilometers inside hostile area (Palestine) where anyone with a knife to a gun is going to try and kill you, to take out these people individually?

Or in the name of 'moral decency' would you let Hamas keep firing rockets at Israeli people ?

 

[SarthakGanguly]

^^^Tough moral choices. Imagine I am in charge of a Israeli artillery battery. I have the coordinates to scan for potential launch sites. I know there are schools/hospitals in the area. I also have heat signatures for 'bad guys'. What do I do? Now that's a toughie.

One order to fire - 10 seconds of pounding and its over. 20 buildings demolished/damaged. 50 killed. It's that simple and complicated respectively.

And oh yes, failure to silence the Hamas batteries is of course punishable. So abstaining from the attack is out of the question.

@Hazzy997 - No. I am not a 'moron'.

 

[Falcon29]

^^^Tough moral choices. Imagine I am in charge of a Israeli artillery battery. I have the coordinates to scan for potential launch sites. I know there are schools/hospitals in the area. I also have heat signatures for 'bad guys'. What do I do? Now that's a toughie.

One order to fire - 10 seconds of pounding and its over. 20 buildings demolished/damaged. 50 killed. It's that simple and complicated respectively.

And oh yes, failure to silence the Hamas batteries is of course punishable. So abstaining from the attack is out of the question.

You're a moron. This was in area where Israeli ground forces were trying to advance and began indiscriminately shelling the city.

 

[Contrarian]

@Contrarian

Yaara, the WHOLE point of legally distinguishing (in international law, under the UN's regulations etc.) between state actors who operate under the command of a nation which has a place in the comity of nations and terrorist IS that one is held to a higher standard than the other. Part of the reason an organisation is labeled as a terrorist organisation is that they refuse to be held to said standards, that they are willing to target indiscriminately to achieve their goals.

I agree with the premise that State actors have to be held to a higher standard.
But the premise does not change the reality of the situation of rockets being fired from populated areas of Palestine.

The whole concept behind the collective punishment strategy of Israel is that the people of Palestine eventually tire out and ask Hamas to go and fight Israel from a non populated area. That they tell Hamas to fight not from their schools and hospitals.

Letting Hamas fire from areas where they are or their children are is tantamount to supporting Hamas is it not?

 

[Hiptullha]

What exactly is a trained Army supposed to do when a terrorist organization constantly uses civilian institutions and buildings to launch its wars? Were you heading IDF, would you send your soldiers many kilometers inside hostile area (Palestine) where anyone with a knife to a gun is going to try and kill you, to take out these people individually?

Or in the name of 'moral decency' would you let Hamas keep firing rockets at Israeli people ?

This attack wasn't against rockets, mate.
It was because Hamas allegedly murdered 3 teens (they didn't).

 

[Contrarian]

This attack wasn't against rockets, mate.
It was because Hamas allegedly murdered 3 teens (they didn't).

There were 2 aspects:
1. Hamas murdered the 3 children (not verifiable as of now)
2. Hamas launched hundreds of rockets on Israel after the death of the 3 children. Israel desisted from attacking Gaza before the rockets.

It was post the rocket launches that Israel launched their offensive.

 

[Dillinger]

I agree with the premise that State actors have to be held to a higher standard.
But the premise does not change the reality of the situation of rockets being fired from populated areas of Palestine.

The whole concept behind the collective punishment strategy of Israel is that the people of Palestine eventually tire out and ask Hamas to go and fight Israel from a non populated area. That they tell Hamas to fight not from their schools and hospitals.

I know man, that is why the IDF needs to be selective, yes, some targets need to be abandoned, and IDF has done that sometimes in the past, aborted a strike that is.

This will be something that Israel might never agree to, but they need to bite the bullet, be willing to accept higher attrition and take such targets with boots on the ground, there will still be collateral damage and civilian casualties (no boots does not equate to artillery, if it did then there would be no difference). There is a reason why our CI forces never resort to any heavy arms fire or indirect fire (artillery, precision munitions) when dealing with terrorists in built up areas (right at the LOC or in the mountains is a different issue, in fact we were stupid when we called in strikes late into Kargil, that was a perfect setup for heavy indirect fire), we know we will suffer greater casualties but we only use our boots for FIBUA.

 

[Hiptullha]

There were 2 aspects:
1. Hamas murdered the 3 children (not verifiable as of now)
2. Hamas launched hundreds of rockets on Israel after the death of the 3 children. Israel desisted from attacking Gaza before the rockets.

It was post the rocket launches that Israel launched their offensive.

Ok.
Your second point.
What if Hamas is responding to the illegal settling by firing rockets? You do know how Arabs are treated by the settlers? There is great racism and prejudice and the authorities usually favour the Israeli settlers.

 

[Contrarian]

I know man, that is why the IDF needs to be selective, yes, some targets need to be abandoned, and IDF has done that sometimes in the past, aborted a strike that is.

This will be something that Israel might never agree to, but they need to bite the bullet, be willing to accept higher attrition and take such targets with boots on the ground, there will still be collateral damage and civilian casualties (no boots does not equate to artillery, if it did then there would be no difference). There is a reason why our CI forces never resort to any heavy arms fire or indirect fire (artillery, precision munitions) when dealing with terrorists in built up areas (right at the LOC or in the mountains is a different issue, in fact we were stupid when we called in strikes late into Kargil, that was a perfect setup for heavy indirect fire), we know we will suffer greater casualties but we only use our boots for FIBUA.

I agree they need to be more selective, but that would completely destroy what they are trying to achieve by collective punishment. If they become more selective then Hamas would simply start putting more kids in the area whenever they fire a rocket to dissuade Israel from reprisal.

On the other hand, killing all and sundry in the area from which the attack happened will eventually(per logic) force ordinary Palestinians to force Hamas to move out from populated areas.

Its a trade off for Israel - greater casualties of civilians now will lead to much less civilian casualties in the future. But lower civilian casualties now will lead to constant civilian casualties in the future.

Our and Israeli situation can not be compared at all for a variety of reasons.

On the other hand I dont get why Palestinians donot focus on building their state and develop the area they have. Stop fighting, make your people and area bigger and better than Singapore or Korea. These ideas just dont appeal to them.

Ok.
Your second point.
What if Hamas is responding to the illegal settling by firing rockets? You do know how Arabs are treated by the settlers? There is great racism and prejudice and the authorities usually favour the Israeli settlers.

Gaza was given to the Gazans to make of it they will last time. They dont come under the Israeli authorities.

 

[Hyperion]

I'm not an advocate of Hamas, in fact I despise them and every such terrorist organization. I, however, am not ok with children being collateral damage in any war. The 'decent' thing would be not to bomb school with children in it. Lets say that I agree with you and we agree that Hamas operatives were taking cover in that school, as per your definition of 'deep' inside enemy territory, where all the Palestinians despise the Israeli Army and apparently are after them with assorted culinary knives.......... the decent thing would be either to risk it all, like most other armies do, or to wait it out......... the terrorists are already boxed-in, they will eventually have to move -- wouldn't they?

Come on. We all know what's going on. It's nothing but arrogance on part of the person who gave the order to bomb the school.

The second they make such an announcement, all schools of Palestine will become the local headquarters of Hamas while running the school side by side. All rocket launches will be from schools with kids inside. All tunnels will be from inside schools. What then?

Hyperion, lets leave the moral lecturing out of this - 'iota of decency' and all. They contribute nothing of substance to a doctrinal question. Best to limit these phrases to facebook.

What exactly is a trained Army supposed to do when a terrorist organization constantly uses civilian institutions and buildings to launch its wars? Were you heading IDF, would you send your soldiers many kilometers inside hostile area (Palestine) where anyone with a knife to a gun is going to try and kill you, to take out these people individually?

Or in the name of 'moral decency' would you let Hamas keep firing rockets at Israeli people ?