Israel Hijacks Aid cargo, executes hostages - Pak journo, Talat Hussain taken hostage

[Jigs]

I am sure Israel can trust the lives of million of Israelis to turkey...How would Israel even know its the same boats.

Maybe every single nation should do the same. Lets all raid and kill people on ships if they don't submit instead of escorting them to our shores and checking their boats. There are rules and procedures in place sir. You do not send commandos to raid ships in international waters that fly sovereign flags. Unless your Israel because unguided rockets with no warheads means you can do anything you want since you have all cards in place. That means you get to do your own investigations on your own crimes. Also have nuclear weapons(refuse NPT signing) and sending assassins into other nations with fake passports to murder people. Oh and you don't have to answer to the U.N. since the U.S. just comes in and will just veto it all. Isn't that just awesome.

 

[CAPTAIN AMERICA]

Maybe every single nation should do the same. Lets all raid and kill people on ships if they don't submit instead of escorting them to our shores and checking their boats. There are rules and procedures in place sir. You do not send commandos to raid ships in international waters that fly sovereign flags. Unless your Israel because unguided rockets with no warheads means you can do anything you want since you have all cards in place. That means you get to do your own investigations on your own crimes. Also have nuclear weapons(refuse NPT signing) and sending assassins into other nations with fake passports to murder people. Oh and you don't have to answer to the U.N. since the U.S. just comes in and will just veto it all. Isn't that just awesome.

The entire purpose of these ships were a confrontation with Israel.
While these ships did not have weapons, they will sooner or later if Israel permits the ships to land,,,they are welcome to land in Egypt and transport the supplies to Gazza.

The ten brave Isrealis that boarding this ship had a choice of fighting or dieing when they were attacked.

 

[gambit]

Maybe every single nation should do the same. Lets all raid and kill people on ships if they don't submit instead of escorting them to our shores and checking their boats. There are rules and procedures in place sir.

There is no 'may be' about it. Rules and procedures are ALREADY in place all over the world, called 'territorial waters'. You might want to look up what a visitor, hostile or friendly, is supposed to do.

You do not send commandos to raid ships in international waters that fly sovereign flags.

Of course you can. Being in international waters does not render one automatic immunity from boarding...

Crimes Under Flags of Convenience | YaleGlobal Online Magazine

In June, 2002, French commandos boarded the Cambodian-registered freighter Winner in international waters in the Atlantic amid an exchange of gunfire that injured one of the 12 crew members. The troops seized more than one tonne of Colombian cocaine worth well over $100 million in a cargo that was registered as scrap iron destined for Bilbao in Spain. Officials said that the raid was the result of 15-months of surveillance involving U.S., French, Spanish and Greek authorities.

If there is no reasonable justification, then a boarding is an act of piracy. But if the justification is for search and seizure of contraband, be it illegal drugs or missiles, then a boarding is legal. Running a blockade is considered a hostile act and a boarding is legal.

 

[Meengla]

The blockade itself was cruel, inhuman, and illegal. Can you imagine that Israel has a list of 'allowed' products for population of 1.5 MILLION people? Now Israelis are changing the list to the list of 'blocked' list.
Something was terribly wrong. Terribly wrong. Israelis and their inhuman supporters like to crow that they completely left Gaza but they conveniently forget that they started to strangulate Gazans for voting for Hamas. Kassams were a reaction to this blockade.
But then...who believes the Israeli propaganda anymore except Fox-News-watching Americans and some Indian-bloggers?

 

[gambit]

The blockade itself was cruel, inhuman, and illegal.

You can call the blockade 'cruel' and 'inhuman' if you like, but it was not 'illegal'. Israel withdrew from Gaza back in '05 and there was no blockade then. Care to explain the Hamas rocket attacks?

Can you imagine that Israel has a list of 'allowed' products for population of 1.5 MILLION people? Now Israelis are changing the list to the list of 'blocked' list.
Something was terribly wrong. Terribly wrong. Israelis and their inhuman supporters like to crow that they completely left Gaza but they conveniently forget that they started to strangulate Gazans for voting for Hamas. Kassams were a reaction to this blockade.
But then...who believes the Israeli propaganda anymore except Fox-News-watching Americans and some Indian-bloggers?

No...The blockade was a response to the rockets.

Understanding the Gaza blockade - The Week

How did the blockade begin?
In 2006, Hamas won parliamentary elections in Gaza and, the next year, drove out Fatah in a bloody four-day civil war. Hamas, which refuses to recognize Israel’s right to exist, fired thousands of rockets into Israel, killing and wounding dozens of civilians and unnerving the population. Hamas also infuriated Israelis by refusing to return a kidnapped soldier, Gilad Shalit (see below), whom militants had abducted from an Israeli border post in 2006. In 2007, Israel imposed a full blockade.

So the blockade came two years AFTER Israel's withdrawal from Gaza.

We can and rightly should criticize Israel's list of 'contraband' and pressure Israel to revise/enlarge that list. But as long as Israel's right to a secure border is not assured by a competent authority in Gaza, the blockade is legitimate.

 

[Rumporum]

If Israel wanted to kill all of them we would've done so. Israel can wipe Gaza from the face of the earth in 48 hours but it obviously hasn't done so. While Hamas and some other keep saying that they will wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

What choice do we have but to keep a blockade on as long as Hamas is in power or until Hamas renounces violence and stops terrorism. I am also for lifting of the blockade BUT not at Hamas term I will not talk to anyone who doesn't even think/believe that I have a right to exist, and we will not negotiate or compromise to terrorists period. Additionally there is no humanitarian catastrophe going on in Gaza as
being put forward by Al-Jazeera and others.


If we start to talk to Hamas now we will end up with who are the good taliban and who are the bad taliban scenario that's going on in Pakistan. Its like saying Pakistan should have a political settlement with the the Taliban. That said now with which Taliban that's another point that one needs figuring out.

 

[Rumporum]

The blockade itself was cruel, inhuman, and illegal. Can you imagine that Israel has a list of 'allowed' products for population of 1.5 MILLION people? Now Israelis are changing the list to the list of 'blocked' list.
Something was terribly wrong. Terribly wrong. Israelis and their inhuman supporters like to crow that they completely left Gaza but they conveniently forget that they started to strangulate Gazans for voting for Hamas. Kassams were a reaction to this blockade.
But then...who believes the Israeli propaganda anymore except Fox-News-watching Americans and some Indian-bloggers?

There is no Humanitarian Catastrophe as being put forward. in the media.If we lift the blockade and give Hamas a free hand then in 1 week I can tell you that Ashkelon and Sderot will come under Artillery fire with Iranian made weapons and both these towns will be gone.

Has anyone not heard of suicide bombings that these guys were up to earlier that is during and before they came to power ...the problem is when you put bombs in buses, cafe's, restaurants and public places, a lot of people in Israel have no sympathy for anyone who supports Hamas....in any form or way. West Bank is peaceful has anyone fired any rockets at us from there... NO and we haven't also done anything retaliatory either.

If Hamas really care about their people then why cant they renounce violence, remember it was Hamas that destroyed Fateh (Killed off Fateh) in Gaza.

 

[Meengla]

My understanding is that the blockade came after Hamas won the elections in a free and fair manner. Also, you guys cannot untie Gaza from the W.Bank. The latter is in a better condition now under Fayad but, back in 2005-2007, Israelis made the life of even the W.Bank Palestinians hell by using various means.

Hamas has repeated many times to call for a 'Hudna' or peace at least 20 years if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders. How many counter proposals Israelis have? Please don't give me the crap about the 'generous' offer to Arafat in Camp David 2000. Israel does not even say much about the Arab League offer of 2002? Why? Because Israelis are colonialists above all.

Soo....what we have are words versus actions: Hamas' Charter may not be recognizing Israel even though Hamas is going to be forced by the Arab League should Israel pullback to 1967. BUT...cunning and cruel Israel, without so much saying it, are actually DOING an act of slow genocide by their Settlement policies. Words versus actions. Which is worse?

Israeli cunningness is only possible because of their near-absolute hold over American Congress and media. They lie repeatedly--learned well from Goebels, I am sure--to create facts. But more and more no one is buying their crap. The Gaza Flotilla attack is another debacle for Israel.

This boast about wiping anyone off the face of the Earth is meaningless in the modern world. Both Israelis and the Palestinians are a reality and they must learn to live with each other. Israeli slow-genocide of the Palestinians show Israeli true intentions so far but, if one goes by Erdogan's words ('Jerusalem and Palestinians will never be forgotten by the Muslim world and the Turks', paraphrased) then Israeli game is coming to an end.

Finally, do you guys have any concrete, immediate proposals for peace? I think either pullback to the 1967 border or even your FM Liberman's 'population-land-swap' plan is doable? Or the Settlers have you too much by the balls to effect any change?

 

[CAPTAIN AMERICA]

My understanding is that the blockade came after Hamas won the elections in a free and fair manner. Also, you guys cannot untie Gaza from the W.Bank. The latter is in a better condition now under Fayad but, back in 2005-2007, Israelis made the life of even the W.Bank Palestinians hell by using various means.

Hamas has repeated many times to call for a 'Hudna' or peace at least 20 years if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders. How many counter proposals Israelis have? Please don't give me the crap about the 'generous' offer to Arafat in Camp David 2000. Israel does not even say much about the Arab League offer of 2002? Why? Because Israelis are colonialists above all.

Soo....what we have are words versus actions: Hamas' Charter may not be recognizing Israel even though Hamas is going to be forced by the Arab League should Israel pullback to 1967. BUT...cunning and cruel Israel, without so much saying it, are actually DOING an act of slow genocide by their Settlement policies. Words versus actions. Which is worse?

Israeli cunningness is only possible because of their near-absolute hold over American Congress and media. They lie repeatedly--learned well from Goebels, I am sure--to create facts. But more and more no one is buying their crap. The Gaza Flotilla attack is another debacle for Israel.

This boast about wiping anyone off the face of the Earth is meaningless in the modern world. Both Israelis and the Palestinians are a reality and they must learn to live with each other. Israeli slow-genocide of the Palestinians show Israeli true intentions so far but, if one goes by Erdogan's words ('Jerusalem and Palestinians will never be forgotten by the Muslim world and the Turks', paraphrased) then Israeli game is coming to an end.

Finally, do you guys have any concrete, immediate proposals for peace? I think either pullback to the 1967 border or even your FM Liberman's 'population-land-swap' plan is doable? Or the Settlers have you too much by the balls to effect any change?

Isreal is never going to do any thing that will result in their destruction as far as peace proposals go....Arabs and Palestinians are going to have to agree to no attacks on Israel and Israel is going to have to agree to give up land but not back to the 1967 borders.

 

[afriend]

you called them activists and terrorists in 2 different sentences. So which is it?

And it was israelis who stormed their boat after being air dropped. What the hell do ya expect? They'll sit down and ask them to join for cup of tea?

Then what do you expect israelis to do.. sit there and get their *** kicked? They should have surrendred peacefully if at all it was a peacefull mission..!! I think they wanted to create some martyrs for making israel evil..!!! innocent lives lost for nothing..!!!

 

[gambit]

My understanding is that the blockade came after Hamas won the elections in a free and fair manner.

Whether Hamas was elected in 'fair manner'......or not is not the issue here. Saying this is an attempt to distract attention.

Also, you guys cannot untie Gaza from the W.Bank.

Then using Gaza as a war staging ground legitimized the blockade.

Because Israelis are colonialists above all.

Then why did Israel withdrew from Gaza back in '05? If Israel is a 'colonialist' then conquering, not merely annexation, Gaza as part of Israeli proper make more sense than unilateral withdrawal or even negotiation.

Soo....what we have are words versus actions: Hamas' Charter may not be recognizing Israel even though Hamas is going to be forced by the Arab League should Israel pullback to 1967.

The Arab League does not control Israel. Iran does.

 

[sparklingway]

gambit at least do not try to sympathize with Israel's colonial mindset and brutal expansion.

You cannot deny the following:-

 

[gambit]

gambit at least do not try to sympathize with Israel's colonial mindset and brutal expansion.

No 'sympathy'. Just understanding. You cannot post those pics without the appropriate context, which is that they are territories taken as securities in an ongoing war against the Arab states. The West Bank and Gaza is used to wage a war. The Arab lost. A low intensity guerrilla/terror campaign is installed. Land is lost. Then Israel is blamed for refusing to commit to a two-states solution.

After Israel and Egypt made peace in a 'land-for-peace' swap, a portion of that land became a buffer zone between the two states. So before any similar agreement that would result in a two-states solution, Israel and the Arab states must exercise similar absolute authority over their sides to assure each other of their rights to border security. Anwar Sadat was publicly assassinated in a parade for his overture to Israel. I am old enough to have watched the blurry news video where men leaped off trucks and shoot their weapons into the audience stand. But even Sadat died, Egypt continued to honor its side of that peace treaty. That is the absolute sovereignty that EVERY state is supposed to demonstrate in order to earn respect from other states. Mexico is rightly earning contempt, not just from US, but from the rest of the civilized world for its inability to exercise absolute sovereignty inside its own borders. We do not see the requisite type of sovereignty happening with the Palestinians where Hamas and Fatah gunned each other down in the streets.

 

[Solomon2]

gambit at least do not try to sympathize with Israel's colonial mindset and brutal expansion.

You cannot deny the following:-

You do know, don't you, that the division of the middle east after WWI involved a dual obligation? The Jews couldn't deprive the non-Jews of their civil rights within Palestine, nor could the non-Jews deprive the Jews of their rights outside Palestine. While 20% of Israel remains Arab, save for a handful of Jews in Syria the nearby Arab states have kicked all the Jews out.

So you see your map is only partially accurate. If you want a truer picture, you have to expand your map to include the areas of the middle east where Jews were deprived of property and re-color areas within Israel where Arabs retained theirs after independence - as well as demonstrating Israel's moderation by showing how much it gave back to the Arabs after its conquests in 1956, 1967, and 1973.

***

Yet this brings up a larger question, sparklingway. Why do you not discuss the issue at hand, and attempt to divert attention away from the legality of Israel's actions and the terrorist acts of the militant Turks who attacked the Israeli boarding party? Is it because you are not willing to admit that it is ever possible for a Muslim to be justly attacked and killed by a non-Muslim?

 

[sparklingway]

No 'sympathy'. Just understanding. You cannot post those pics without the appropriate context, which is that they are territories taken as securities in an ongoing war against the Arab states. The West Bank and Gaza is used to wage a war. The Arab lost. A low intensity guerrilla/terror campaign is installed. Land is lost. Then Israel is blamed for refusing to commit to a two-states solution.

Does this mean that Israel will draw back its expansion if Palestinians lay down arms and settle for a piece agreement? Will the Israelis allow Palestinians to occupy and claim as their own the land they have occupied now? Clearly not. Hence this is no "appropriate context" and in no way "territories taken as securities in an ongoing war against the Arab states".

After Israel and Egypt made peace in a 'land-for-peace' swap, a portion of that land became a buffer zone between the two states. So before any similar agreement that would result in a two-states solution, Israel and the Arab states must exercise similar absolute authority over their sides to assure each other of their rights to border security. Anwar Sadat was publicly assassinated in a parade for his overture to Israel. I am old enough to have watched the blurry news video where men leaped off trucks and shoot their weapons into the audience stand. But even Sadat died, Egypt continued to honor its side of that peace treaty. That is the absolute sovereignty that EVERY state is supposed to demonstrate in order to earn respect from other states. Mexico is rightly earning contempt, not just from US, but from the rest of the civilized world for its inability to exercise absolute sovereignty inside its own borders. We do not see the requisite type of sovereignty happening with the Palestinians where Hamas and Fatah gunned each other down in the streets.

This has absolutely no importance whatsoever to Israel's colonial occupations.

I have never, ever met a humanist or a peace activist who does not term this as colonial barbarism. It is plane and simple. I have a great amount of respect for what the people of Israel have achieved in the world of science, in the world of state integrity and military might but I have no respect whatsoever for inhumane colonials who occupy lands and then deem the fighters as terrorists.

I hope you can understand what I mean as well.

You do know, don't you, that the division of the middle east after WWI involved a dual obligation? The Jews couldn't deprive the non-Jews of their civil rights within Palestine, nor could the non-Jews deprive the Jews of their rights outside Palestine. While 20% of Israel remains Arab, save for a handful of Jews in Syria the nearby Arab states have kicked all the Jews out.

This does not mean that Israel has the same right. Intolerant and bigoted Arab states shouldn't mean an intolerant and bigoted Israel.

So you see your map is only partially accurate. If you want a truer picture, you have to expand your map to include the areas of the middle east where Jews were deprived of property and re-color areas within Israel where Arabs retained theirs after independence - as well as demonstrating Israel's moderation by showing how much it gave back to the Arabs after its conquests in 1956, 1967, and 1973.

How big a portion of land will be re-coloured? Not as much as the land that was occupied. Please go ahead and change it to historical accuracy. Debate should be objective, and facts should be objectively and historically true. I did not mean in any way to exaggerate the claims and I do not claim to have extremely deep knowledge of the conflict.

Yet this brings up a larger question, sparklingway. Why do you not discuss the issue at hand, and attempt to divert attention away from the legality of Israel's actions and the terrorist acts of the militant Turks who attacked the Israeli boarding party?

Because I'm not convinced that the boarding party and the entire armed assault was in any way a super friendly act. I'll deem it an act of blatant injustice when I'm proven so and when I'm informed that the 9 people who died were posing life threatening danger. 9 civilians die and no IDF soldiers critically injured.

Do not, I repeat do not twist my above stated words to state as if the state of Israel and the IDF were the victims here. It's been your habit to comment on the objectivity and accuracy of statements rather than accounts.

Is it because you are not willing to admit that it is ever possible for a Muslim to be justly attacked and killed by a non-Muslim?

I'm highly agnostic. I deem killing any person regardless of faith as reprehensible. No person of logic and reason would deem killing 9 civilians as justified.