Israel and Non Arab Muslim countries

[Xestan]

The recognition of Israel is NO choice for us, no matter what happens Israel is not going to be recognized as a legitimate state by Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Our founding father left very clear policies for us.

Addressing a mass meeting in Bombay on November 8, 1945, Quaid e Azam said, “We Musalmans of India, are one with the Arab world on this issue. It is not a question of a National Home for Jews in Palestine. It is a question of Jews reconquering Palestine, which they had lost 2000 years ago, with the help of British bayonets and American money. I have no enmity against Jews. I know they were treated very badly in some parts of civilized Europe. But why should Palestine be dumped with such a large number of Jews? If Jews want to reconquer Palestine, let them face Arabs without British or American help”?

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

I would devide Israeli population into 3 major groups:

1) The small minority of hardcore left, who want to give territories no matter what.
2) The small minority of hardcore right, who dont want to give territories no matter what.
3) The Centrist, who are absolute majority. They dont mind two state solution, but fear that it may lead to terror and rocket attacks. Therefore their opinion is drifting constantly.

In 2000-2001 Israel offered Palestinians a state but they refused and started Intifada which caused over 1000 killed Israelis.

In 2005 Israel unilaterally pulled out from all of Gaza. In 2006 Israelis voted for unilateral pullout from 90% of West Bank.

But as result of Hezbollah rocket attacks and increased rocket attacks from Gaza this plan was canceled.

Currently we have a statemate situation. Neither Israeli, nor Palestinian leaders have courage and will to do any steps towards peace. Americans are busy with their problems and dont push towards peace either. West Bank is calm and developing well. In Gaza there are some sporadic clashes once in several months, but overall its also quite calm and developing too.

So from one side situation now is good, but from another side lack of progress in peace may lead to another explosion in the future. I wish we had more brave leaders who dont afraid to make bold decisions.

So, it wasn't because of this?
Sharon visits Al-Aqsa Mosque
On September 28, the Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon together with a Likud party delegation surrounded by hundreds of Israeli riot police, visited the Al-Aqsa Mosque. Al-Aqsa Mosque is part of the compound and is widely considered the third holiest site in Islam.

 

[RFS_Br]

"In 2000-2001 Israel offered Palestinians a state but they refused and started Intifada which caused over 1000 killed Israelis."

Israelis must be the people most ignorant of their own history.

As BlackEagle said, the Intifada started when Ariel Sharon -- the anti-Palestinian warmonger and enabler of the Sabra and Shatilla massacre -- visited a Palestinian sacred place, no doubt as a provocation. Moreover, as recognized Uri Avnery, an Israeli Jew who fought for the anti-Palestinian terrorist group Irgun Stern, the Intifada only turned violent when Israel tried to quell Palestinian peaceful protests by targeting the protest leaders for assassination (the first Intifada also had a similar origin).

As for the supposed rejection by Arafat of Barak's offer, this is what Israeli historian Avi Shlaim wrote:

"Israel's official history is full of myths (...). The latest national myth is that of the generous offer that Ehud Barak is said to have made to Arafat at Camp David, only to be confronted with a flat rejection and a return to violence. There is a broad national consensus behind this myth, including the left and the peace camp, but popular support is not the same as evidence. There is a broad national consensus behind this myth, including the left and the peace camp, but popular support is not the same as evidence. (...)

"The first-hand account of the American official Robert Malley is not even mentioned [by Benny Morris]. It suggests that Barak mishandled the summit from start to finish. [] According to Benny [Morris], the Palestinian leadership rejected "the Barak-Clinton peace proposals of July-December 2000". In fact, they rejected Barak's proposals of July and accepted in principle Clinton's proposals of December, as did the Israeli leadership. Both sides had their reservations.

"On Jerusalem, the Israeli reservations were more substantial than the Palestinian ones. At Taba the two teams made considerable progress on the basis of the Clinton paremeters and came closer to an overall agreement than at any other time in the history of this conflict. But by this time Clinton and Barak were on their way out and Sharon was on his way in. During the run-up to the elections, Barak hardened his line on Jerusalem. At this critical juncture, as so often in the past, the peace process was held hostage to internal Israeli politics. With Sharon's election, all the progress made at Taba towards a "final status" agreement was rendered null and void."

 

[500]

This is not actually true. Arabs -- even the Druzes, who serve in the Israeli army -- are discriminated against in housing, education, and employment.

Thats nonsense. You can buy house wherever u want. Take a loan in bank and buy. No one helped me to buy my little flat.

The state invests three times more on the average Jewish student than on the average Arab student,

And again nonsense. Schools are funded by municipal tax. Simply Jews pay lots of taxes and Arabs not. Also rich Jewish neihborhoods pay much more municipal taxes than poor, thats why schools in rich are better.

Israel is a secular state only nominally. It supports a range of Jewish -- again, Jewish only -- institutions, and even keeps a large part of its population, the Haredim, in welfare so they can study the Torah without bothering to ever have a serious job in life.

Haredim are poorest part of Israeli society. You only prove my point.

I wonder what would be the Knesset's reaction to a religious Israeli Arab group that asked this same sort of treatment so it can keep studying the Shariah.

Muslim clerics get salary from the state, Arabs with lots of children get same money as Jews from lots of children. For many Haredi and bedouin families thats major source of income.

And speaking of the the Knesset, wasn't it considering a bill whereby its Jewish character would have precedence over its democratic one?

Never heard but in democratic country everyone can consider anything.

Israelis must be the people most ignorant of their own history.

As BlackEagle said, the Intifada started when Ariel Sharon

We know history well:

PA Minister of Communications: Intifada already planned when Arafat returned from Camp David - YouTube

I agree with you and I realize how welcoming Israel is to all the religions. But for a state to exist only because it is jewish seems a bit unfair at least to me. The concept of Zionism itself is a religious one. Anyways, those are just in my point of view.

Israel is not only for Jews. Arabic is official language in Israel.

 

[RazPaK]

I have some very nice and well educate palestinian friends, and after meeting their families it embarrasses me to say that majority of pakistanis on this thread are self centered, ego centric biggots.

 

[pk_baloch]

explain this term.

zionist muslims => the muslim governments that ally with isreal ..............

my few pakistani brothers are too foolish to understand these things

 

[500]

zionist muslims => the muslim governments whose ally with isreal ..............

my few pakistani brothers are too foolish to understand these things

Example of Zionist Muslims:

Arabs for Israel - Muslims for Israel. Muslims in the Israeli Army - SEE MY OTHER VIDEOS - YouTube

 

[pk_baloch]

Example of Zionist Muslims:

Arabs for Israel - Muslims for Israel. Muslims in the Israeli Army - SEE MY OTHER VIDEOS - YouTube

im not watching this video.......i know the reality ......

 

[RFS_Br]

@500

Housing discrimination exists, and this has been reported even by the Israeli media. You don't know this either because you're here to spread propaganda or because you're that ignorant of your own country's social dynamics. Read this story: it's about Black Jews protesting the fact that Jewish landlords won't have them as tenants. If even certain groups of Israeli Jews can be discriminated like this, what hope is there that Israeli Arabs would be tolerated?

This weblink contains a letter by Fida Kiryis, a Palestinian Christian woman residing in Israel, saying that she faces discrimination from the state when, among other things, she goes to the bank to get a loan.

This FT story reccounts that, whilst Jews get permission and subsidies to expand their presence over mixed cities -- clearly an attempt to Judaize the land -- Israeli Arabs are not given the same stimulus; not even state permission to build new houses they get. But when they do that without waiting for permission, permission that is clearly never going to come, the state demolishes their houses. And this is a story about a Jewish town forbidding an Arab resident from building on his own land.

So don't assume that Israeli Arabs enjoy the same economic opportunities that you do as a Jew.

About education, this story has an Israeli minister admitting that much of the Israeli Arabs' poor performance, economic and educational, is due to discrimination, including on the part of the state. If you want to get Arabs to pay higher taxes, then let them be inserted in the job market -- don't leave them jobless because they're Goyim. Don't blame them for being left behind when this is because of your attitude towards them.

"Haredim are poorest part of Israeli society. You only prove my point."

The only social sect that gets paid not to work is the poorest? No ****, Sherlock!

"Never heard but in democratic country everyone can consider anything."

Wrong, and more evidence of Israelis' non-democratic character. True democracies have constitutions. And ideally, every state power is subordinated to them. Neither the Executive's policies nor bills passed by the legislatures can violate them. The US government has struck down many laws regulating discrimination against minorities because they didn't conform to the spirit of the US constitution. That is, a democratic government can't just consider any sort of bill. It has a reference -- a constitution that, among other things, affords a set of essential rights to citizens -- and it can't bypass it.

"Israel is not only for Jews. Arabic is official language in Israel."

But even this you're trying to take away from them. And I'm not even going to talk about Lieberman's proposal to force Israeli Arabs, and them only, to take a loyalty oath, or his plans to make the Palestinian state absorb any areas near the Green Line with a high population of Israeli Arabs. Arabs in Israel are clearly not wanted.

 

[pk_baloch]

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[500]

@500Housing discrimination exists, and this has been reported even by the Israeli media. You don't know this either because you're here to spread propaganda or because you're that ignorant of your own country's social dynamics. Read this story: it's about Black Jews protesting the fact that Jewish landlords won't have them as tenants. If certain groups of Israeli Jews are discriminated like this, what hope is there that Israeli Arabs would be tolerated?

I have a right to chose whom I rent my house.

This weblink contains a letter by Fida Kiryis, a Palestinian Christian woman residing in Israel, saying that she faces discrimination from the state when, among other things, she goes to the bank to get a loan.

No, thats some guy from bethlehem, ie not an Israeli citizen. How can someone be discriminated in loans I really dont know. bank never asks nationality.

This FT story reccounts that, whilst Jews get permission and subsidies to expand their presence over mixed cities -- clearly an attempt to Judaize the land -- Israeli Arabs are not given the same stimulus; for instance, they aren't given permission to build new houses.

Thats again rubbish. Arab percentage in all towns is growing.

But when they do that without waiting for a permission that is clearly never going to come, the state demolishes their houses. And this is a story about a Jewish town forbidding an Arab resident from building on his own land.

U can see the reaction of council that says that his piece is far away from all other houses and connect it to water and electricity is very problematic.

So don't assume that Israeli Arabs enjoy the same economic opportunities that you do as a Jew.

Israeli Arabs have more opportunities since they dont have to serve 3 years in army, wasting their best years.

The US government has struck down many laws regulating discrimination against minorities because they don't conform to the spirit of the US constitution.

But you attack Israel for law that did not even passed but someone just consider.

 

[RazPaK]

At 500 I would like some honest dialogue with you. Be ready for me.

 

[Arabian Legend]

Why has Pakistan not recognised Israel when Egypt and Jordan have? And Saudis via Americans have good relations with Israel.

Saudi arabia doesn't have a relations with israel either directly or indirectly/via america as you claim. She doesn't recognize israel and never will till they fulfill 1967 agreement.having relations with the US running after our interests doesn't mean having relations with israel. saudi arabia is basically lobbying in the US as israel is doing.
if you wanna seek relations with israel we don't hold you back go with it but don't drag saudi arabia in every talk.

 

[RFS_Br]

I have a right to chose whom I rent my house.

Based on their ethnicity? Good way to show how inclusive Israelis are.

No, thats some guy from bethlehem, ie not an Israeli citizen. How can someone be discriminated in loans I really dont know. bank never asks nationality.

Let me quote the letter for you as it appears that you haven't yet mastered the admittedly complex ability of scrolling down an internet page.

The letter:

I am one of those Palestinian Christians that Mr. Oren refers to, who live inside Israel. At no time in my life have I ever felt the "respect and appreciation" by the Jewish state which Mr. Oren so glowingly refers to in his last paragraph. Israel's Christian minority is marginalized in much the same manner as its Muslim one, or at best, quietly tolerated. We suffer the same discrimination when we try to find a job, when we go to hospitals, when we apply for bank loans and when we get on the bus. In my daily dealings with the state, all I have felt is rudeness and overt contempt.

Fida Jiryis

"Thats again rubbish. Arab percentage in all towns is growing."

I think you're talking out of your ***. But the point isn't the percentage of Arabs -- itself nothing but a product of high fertility rates. The point is that they aren't given the same economic opportunities as Jews in Israel. They're confined to ancestral lands and often don't get permission to expand or renovate their communities like Jews do not only in Israel but also on the lands they steal in the West Bank. This isn't just me saying it. I posted links giving examples of Arabs who aren't allowed to expand their presence even within the confines of their own properties.

U can see the reaction of council that says that his piece is far away from all other houses and connect it to water and electricity is very problematic.

This is a problem for him to solve. It's his lands and he should have the right to build houses on whatever corner of his own property he wants to.

Israeli Arabs have more opportunities since they dont have to serve 3 years in army, wasting their best years.

Opportunity isn't just having times on one's hand. Young people need others to offer them opportunities, jobs, scholarships. Does that happen? Not even the honorable Druzes, who do serve in the army, get a pass from the Jewish establishment.

The conversation turned to Druze service, and I asked him why so many Druze take up a military career. He said bitterly that as long as they are in uniform, it’s “grab some food soldier, here, have a discount,” but that as soon as they are discharged, it’s “You want a job? But you’re an Arab!”

 

[500]

Based on their ethnicity? Good way to show how inclusive Israelis are.

Based on my personal preferences.

Let me quote the letter for you as it appears that you haven't yet mastered the admittedly complex ability of scrolling down an internet page.

I read it fast dont have much time. Entire link is garbage propaganda.

For example he claims: "The number of Christians in Jerusalem dropped dramatically since the occupation of the city in 1967"

In reality number of Christians grew from 11,000 in 1967 to 15,000 in 2007.

Number of Muslims grew much more sharply though: from 54,000 to 240,000. Woman's letter is also nonsense. How its possible to be discriminated on bus?? For gods sake, no one asks any documents in bus and plenty of Jewish Israelis look like Arabs. So how?

I think you're talking out of your ***. But the point isn't the percentage of Arabs -- itself nothing but a product of high fertility rates.

Not just. For example Nazeret Ilit was all Jewish town. Today its 10% Arab and growing. In my town Bat Yam were not any Arabs, but recently I see more and more.

The point is that they aren't given the same economic opportunities as Jews in Israel.

This point is nonsense.

At 500 I would like some honest dialogue with you. Be ready for me.

I'll start trainings now, to be ready.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iPFK5T_G3U