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Islamophobia [Dedicated Thread]

gurjot said:
pain said:
whole islam is highlighted because of terrorists
whole islam is highlighted just because of few people

No because we are still conservative. We still love to live the old way that consider backward or not modern enough by west--ie secular living. Let Muslim nation open up to west and allow all un-islamic activities in the name of modernism then Islam will not be targeted as whole.
 
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No because we are still conservative. We still love to live the old way that consider backward or not modern enough by west--ie secular living. Let Muslim nation open up to west and allow all un-islamic activities in the name of modernism then Islam will not be targeted as whole.

Read this....it will give your razor thin narrow mind a sense of perspective..

'South Park' fan Jon Stewart to Revolution Muslim: Go [bleep] yourselves!
Jon Stewart has "South Park" creators Matt Stone and Trey Parker's backs.

On his show Thursday (Apr. 22), the talk show host discussed the "veiled death threats" received by his comic pals for their cartoon depiction of the prophet Muhammed in a bear suit.

He is most amazed that the Revolution Muslim group who posted the threats on their website, are headquartered in New York City and get to enjoy the delights of the theatre district, praise Osama bin Laden and operate in the shadow of the former World Trade Center twin towers. All because of how much we Americans "value freedom of expression.".

He then presents compilations of how much fun his show has had making fun of every religion from Jews, Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses, Lutherans, metal fans, witches, Rastafarians, Scientologists, chubby chasers, the Amish, to the 11th century gnostics cult, the Cathars, wiped out in the French Albigensian crusade.

He ends the segment with a rousing gospel rendition of his favorite friendly phrase to those who disagree with him: "Go [Bleep] Yourselves Now."

Hallelujah!

so re quoting his parting statement...for all I care about people with a fundamentalist caveman ideology and mindset!
 
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Not sure if Islamophobic care about the entire Muslim world, I think they only care about the Muslims who immigrate into their countries.
 
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When i refer to "we" i mean those common muslims on the streets with Respect for other cultures and religions , people like myself.




My Friend it exists in every society , where ever you would go it will follow .
I understand what situations you are talking about but my whole point is regarding the Discrimination and illtreatment Muslims (Common) are facing on the streets on the Jobs etc and it Must End.

All EU Muslims are Europeans and they should be respected for who they are.



I dont Think any Muslims in EU would go against those EU values as long as they were Europeans themselves.
NONE of the cultures is to be sacrificed for Muslims and i never demanded it did it ?

I want a common understanding between EU Muslims and their other countrymates that they can enjoy Integrity and harmony and leave their lives well withour discriminating against each others.



French do wear Christian symbols moreover sikhs are allowed to wear a Turban in Franch Govt buldings etc.
As far the security risk is concerned it can be dealt with in a positive manner and with the will of EU Muslims - enforcement wont do any good.




It Indicates how Free practice of religion is done in Swiss society.



Most of the Muslim countries including Pakistan allow free worship and to Build new Churches and temples in whatever way they want.
If you are indicating towards Saudi arabia then i am sorry that is our "Holiest Land" and no other faith would be allowed in that Region specially Pagans.

I am sure you understand why did i say that , christians wont allow us Building a Mosque in Vetican City would they ?

King Abdullah was in talks with Pope to build a Curch in the North of the country but nothing has been done as yet.



These are the excuses normally given and what i believe is that there should be a solution which caters for both Security risks and Religious Freedom.


For minaret ban and women clothing, refer my response above.
Regarding men with beards, certain ethnicities are suspected on the grounds of past mistakes. Even European men and many of them sport full beards. Why this stereotype doesn't go along with them? And most European authorities here are instructed to be as polite even when checking a potential suspect until he is proven guilty. I don't see that happening so in your Asia, where even tourists are checked as though we are certainly carrying bombs around with us.[/QUOTE]

I dont know what you are reffering to but it wont happen in Pakistan (At least not during my stay) and if we do check them that is Truly for their own safety.

I was reffering to the Image that a person with a beard would have in EU and they get discriminated because of their looks no morethan that.

I have saw that myself.




It has happened to me and many of my friends who have been denied jobs or were not selected because they had a Muslim name .

I refer to a BBC report on Sweden which has the most neglected Islamic society & they are denied Jobs and services just because they have an Islamic name.





We are all suffering from terrorism and the damage done to Pakistan is far more worse than anyone else.

Islamophobia as term must not be generalized and if is being generalized on all EU's i would be against it !

Infact my whole idea is about the Image the Muslims have in the aftermath of 9/11 and they are facing mistreatment and discrimination just because of their Faith and it must be stopped.

They should be allowed to Practice their religion freely and in their own way , this is what makes a society better.

There should be a summit between Muslim leaders and Eu that they can decide and what ways can be found to take everything in consideration and find some solutions that would be acceptable to the society and to its Muslims too.

Regards:
Thanks for the positive response. Much appreciate it. I am merely talking about the law as laid out in written. There are many cases where Sikh children cannot wear their iron bracelets explicitly to show religious symbols in public offices.

As I said regarding Switzerland, everyone here is free to practise their religion BUT in compliance with Swiss national culture which is what the land's values are. The restrictions are more or less self-imposed as a mark of respect by immigrants and citizens of foreign faiths (including myself) incase should it conflict with national values and culture.

While what you say if well meant, it is not exactly done with same intentions here in Europe. Community leaders take the advantage of our laws and misuse their minority status. This results in the law's very foundation being shaken which causes a slight bias in favour of that particular community (read here for example as muslim community). This causes discomfort to the local people who find a cultural invasion in their country all of a sudden and therefore causing violence which again makes these leaders hide behind the term "Islamophobia", worsening the situation and repeating the vicious cycle.


We have no issues with what you practise in your homes and even outside. However, publicly defying what is not common in the daily life will obviously create some ripples in the domestic population isn't it? For example, 3 years ago there was a case in Dubai which became popular in Europe. An American woman was caught walking along her house lane (which sides the famous beach and coastlines) in a two-piece bikini while the evening prayers were going on in some distant mosque. The woman has been used to this kind of attire in her homeland and therefore felt that she's not breaching anyone's privacy or hurting any sentiments. However, the police arrested her fined her, jailed her for two days and deported her.

Now tell me, isn't this discrimination compared to the anti-veil law in France, Belgium, Netherlands or the minaret ban in my country? The woman however scantily dressed, didn't enter a mosque or an Arab family's home and yet she underwent all the unpleasant processes. The veil laws specifically had been implemented and stressed after 9/11, since the extremely concealing attire of Muslim women can compromise identity, which is important if there is a potential threat. Hence it isn't very welcome in West. Also it doesn't go with European and American culture just as the woman's attire didn't go along well in Dubai.

Look what happened in Moscow metro system. In the above case, neither United Arab Emirates nor any of its surrounding countries suffer from even a small insurgency let alone blatant international terrorism. So what is your opinion about this? Please do reply.



About individual attacks, I whole-heartedly support you that racist attacks should be stopped.
 
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I, for one, am not defending "Islamophobia". Instead, my points are:

(1) The term is used too often to try to stifle legitimate criticism or to try to win a debate by maligning the people and arguments on the "other side".
The thing is there is no one judge to give off the certificate of legitimate criticism. Its usually going to be the alleged Islamaphobe, his loudspeaker and an audience and a Muslim calling him out on it.

Look Muslims cry foul a whole lot. You can't take away the Islamophobe card just like you can't take away the race card. How much of that "criticism" actually affects Osama Bin Laden? Usually its the regular people who have to pay the price for your phobia of Bin Laden.

(2) The only reason we are having incidents of "Islamophobia" is because Islamic terrorism has frightened non-believers (and believers as well, for that matter). When you frighten groups of humans, they behave by categorizing and minimizing the threat.
Sure but it comes to a point where you we have to stand up and say if thats the case and you have to start behaving in ways that may one day lead up to sending average Muslims to internment camps - then you need therapy dude and YOU need to fix YOURSELF. If acts of terrorism from one person makes you inflict violence upon another then there you need to be locked up in a loony bin before your calls for Muslims to seek some introspection. Nobody is denying the Muslims need to work upon themselves, but first we need to take away the hostile environment that is being forced upon us.

Finally, I would bet that many, many Muslims in places where Islamic groups are attacking "moderate" Muslim beliefs and practices, that the attacked Muslims also "profile" the attackers. That is, that they practice "Fundophobia" on their fellow Muslims.
Not by state law, not through violence. Some glares, some stares, some aggressive debates maybe. But I'm yet to see a glaring violation of civil liberties from a professing champion of liberties like the Patriot Act, or referendum in Switzerland, or the Ban one tenet of Islam per year moves by France...
 
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Guys, i agree the world has been rough, on this subject. But I feel the Muslims also need to introspect, as to why this phobia has been created.
I could post several arguments, but it is a sensitive topic, so I will just leave it there.
 
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Guys, i agree the world has been rough, on this subject. But I feel the Muslims also need to introspect, as to why this phobia has been created.
I could post several arguments, but it is a sensitive topic, so I will just leave it there.
We're being killed and abused due to it. Trust me the entire Muslim world thinking and debating on it. Problem is, are the others? They are winners, the victors, usually the strong don't have to worry about these things hence the focus has been to get these folks to introspect as well.
 
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Not by state law, not through violence. Some glares, some stares, some aggressive debates maybe. But I'm yet to see a glaring violation of civil liberties from a professing champion of liberties like the Patriot Act, or referendum in Switzerland, or the Ban one tenet of Islam per year moves by France...

You make good points. Fear of Muslims (Islamophobia) needs to be counteracted for everyone's good. Any fear reaction, when it has reached the point of a legitimate label as a "phobia" is bad for the phobic person as well as their "targets".

About your last point above, what do you think of Turkey's legal limitation of some Islamic practices in public places?
 
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One can theoretically equate the phenomena of Islamophobia to Anti-semitism practiced by the Third Reich- an irrational fear of a people practicing a particular religion.

However, post WW-II, once the scope and enormity of Third-Reich's anti-semitic ideologies and practices came to light, the whole of Germany and the German people discarded their legacy and to this day vehemently oppose the Third Reich's practices.

In contrast, do all Islamic countries vehemently oppose the ideologies of these fanatics? For that matter, how many Muslims oppose such acts of violence? Many Muslims do oppose such fundamentalists, however their arguments almost always end with a "but...then..."

And that IMHO forms the basis of Islamophobia.
 
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Asim, take the example of the cartoons issue (Denmark). The whole issue was blown out of proportion. Very violent protests, by Muslims living in Europe. I mean, was that really necessary!! Is it really that important what a bunch of crazy cartoonists feel. When the issue was discussed on PDf, so many members were like death to cartoonists, these europeans need to be taught a lesson etc!!
It gives an impression that to an outsider that the entire community is programmed to be intolerant, which is not the case. Just an example.
 
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About your last point above, what do you think of Turkey's legal limitation of some Islamic practices in public places?

I like Turkey, but their bizzaro form of secularism defeats all sense. The moderates of Pakistan and Turkey have a lot in common in lifestyle and views - but whats wrong is wrong. They are confused about what "secularism" means.

I like the US too, and I maintain that all the curtailment of civil liberties is Osama Bin Laden's biggest victory against Americans. He got you guys to screw yourselves over and mess up a good thing - goes double for half of Europe.
 
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Asim, take the example of the cartoons issue (Denmark). The whole issue was blown out of proportion. Very violent protests, by Muslims living in Europe. I mean, was that really necessary!! Is it really that important what a bunch of crazy cartoonists feel. When the issue was discussed on PDf, so many members were like death to cartoonists, these europeans need to be taught a lesson etc!!
It gives an impression that to an outsider that the entire community is programmed to be intolerant, which is not the case. Just an example.
Look we are basically all shouting "Understand me first, then I'll understand you". Our problems are obviously larger, thats why we Muslims are an illiterate, ignorant, backward bunch by large. But that doesn't mean we ignore the steamrollers that are compounding the problem by their Islamophobia against us.

For the moderate Muslim he has to battle the radical Mullahs and the Radical Islamophobes together. They are both hand in hand out to get the moderates since the Radical Mullah's views on Islam and the radical Islamophobes views on Islam are one and the same, i.e. extremist. Each justifies their actions by citing the extremism interpreted out of Islam by them. It's only the moderate Muslim that disagrees - with both.
 
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Well even after knowing the fact that a person who wants to nuke all muslims, you think he will speak objectively about muslims or Islam, then this is your choice. People with brains and with atleast a sense of humanity will of course see the truth.

The thread was does Islamophobia exists? What do you think, yes or no? Sites like the ones you quoted are proof that it does. And if you can't see that, that is your choice, albeit an unfortunate one



Did you spend atleast half the time on faithfreedom.com which refutes all the articles and much more?

Have you ever heard or read Anwar sheikh. If you have, try refuting him first as far as I know no scholar has till date dared to debate him till he was alive.

Once you do that then I will stop giving links to websites, interestingly the articles in the above mentioned websites are also true and I have yet to see some scholars refuting the TRUTH.

I have gone through faithfreedom.com few days/months back dont remember exactly when and I did go through the articles/rants/blah..... against ff.org

I dont belive it if you do well and fine stick to it and i will stick to the sites I mentioned.

Individual choice you see. Freedom to choose and think :D

Lastly I would request the moderator to close this thread since this is going nowhere. This is a defense related forum and discussing/debating religion is just not right.

I would lastly quote Ramkrishna paramhamsa.

Forgot the words the meaning is as follows.

Just like all the raindrops merge with the river/sea by taking different paths same is about religion. No matter which path we take utimate goal is God consciouness.
So all paths are right and people can choose whichever path suits them.

Thankyou
 
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Help me understand one thing here - are we talking about the Muslims who migrate to Europe and USA or are we talking about Muslims in general?

If we are talking about just the Muslims who migrate to Europe and USA, then one interim solution should be to boycott the countries that have no respect for Islam.
Just don't go there.

In general though it does not matter much. Muslims in their respective countries are free to practice their Religion in any way they want.
 
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