Islamic and Western thought in Turkey - A problem yet not solved

[huzihaidao12]

How to say? I definitely agree with you on most. But I just doubt. This is close to follow one's own inclination, I doubt it, I think the Muslim conservative force is powerful.

These societies will get unstuck and progress only when the influence of the clergy is balanced by the secular voices due to economic and competitive demands.

We can't backseat driver for the future, it may be good, like you said, if there are more common people become Muslim scholars, do you believe it can make a radical change to the Muslim community. This is the future, I can not evaluate it, but we know that, at least it has no place in history, there have only two examples in history, Iran and Turkey, Iran is more close to your point of view, but your point of view is a follow one's own inclination or just depend on the civil power, the seeds can germinate, this is very different. Although we cannot backseat driver for the future, but I have some doubts. Because it had not happened in history.

 

[huzihaidao12]

My bad, too embarrassing, it is an honorific surname given to Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, please forgive my ignorance.

 

[indushek]

Firstly let me make one thing crystal clear. I do not think the West is the model we should strive for. This may be the first post you read by me, but i have on several accounts mentioned that. What i meant with the Enlightenment was the Age og Enlightenment in the West which staretd aroung 18th century Age of Enlightenment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
The point i was trying to make is that the fault of the Ottoman empire was to isolate itself from the developments around the European continent when half of European lands was conquered by themselves. Technology and science came to a total halt in the last period of the Ottoman thanks to incompetent leaders. I don't say we should copy-cat the West. That is why i recommend as the OP suggest to find our own strenght by intermingling Islam and Science/Technology. Ataturk tried to isolate the country from Islam and that has not been optimal for Turkey. Contrary it has halted political and educational development for some. Turkey, as every other country on earth, is unique. We should cope with our own problems and issues in our own way. That is exactly what Ataturk failed to observe.He completely removed all the Islamic institutions and tried to copycat European laws and society. That is what made Turkey unstable for very long time. Because certain people simply could not or did not want to live like a European when their ancestry and roots were of complete different kind.

I simply reject to believe as you that Europe should be our model. Turkey should develop its own unique society by being in peace with Islam instead of rejecting Islam from the system. People want to live as a Muslim and wants to be respected citizen and hold their heads high even if they wear headscarf. It is a big shame on us as Turks that we still see bad treatments of Muslim women just because they choose to wear the headscarf etc. We have simply chosen a wrong path since the founding of the republic. If you read the article by Adivar you will come to understand it much better. Islam and politics, science, technology modernity goes hand in hand if you truly follow what Allah has chosen for us.

The materialistic world view imposed by West into our own lands is simply not what we should strive for. Instead we should be able to live in harmony with our sorroundings and develop our own unique country, because we can build much better than what we have at the moment. We should free ourselves from the chain set by secularism which constantly disrupts the country with nonsense propaganda machine, which even the majority of the citizens dislikes. We are not some sheep who have to be constantly reminded of Ataturk's greatness and the things he brought to the country, why do we not look at an alternative perspective and look at what he did not bring the country? Like religious freedom and respect for our own culture and islam?

I am sorry to say this, but the time i have spent on this forum i have been able to observe one clear pattern on people who associate themselves with secularist thought. I don't want to elaborate one that since i expect that enlightened people will be able to understand what i am talking about.

Thank you for this detailed reply, your thoughts are what i believe in. Similar to Turkey in India too i have seen people who talk of Hindu (Sanatana Dharma if to be told correctly) belief as some outdated concept in the name of modern thought and secular thought. I believe being secular means respecting other religion along with ours, not to push our ideology on others and to constatly indulge in introspection for better living.

The tone of the article by you led me to believe that somehow u thought of Western ideology as better, which u clearly refuted.

 

[Deno]

Secular societies from Nazi Germany to the Gulags of Communist Russia to the war mongering of contemporary US foreign policy have done more to hinder creativity and free thought, not to mention engage in murder, rape and arson of whole civilizations, than any religion ever did.

By the way...even though the political health of the Muslims suffered greatly during the Umayyad and later the Abassid and Andalusian Empires...their intellectual prowess was unmatched.

Really? you are giving Nazis and Soviets as Secular examples?! Seriously Armstrong... just showing the worst possible thing won't get you anywhere... Why don't you look at Norway, Switzerland, Netherland, Germany, UK, Luxemburgi Monaco?

Romans/Greeks/Chinese? Medieval Islam as nothing to do with todays Islam and muslims... Medieval Islamic scholars were more humanist than Islamic scholars now and some of them even supported secularism....

---------- Post added at 12:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 PM ----------

The same can be said for National Security and Nationalism or even Secularism.

Isn't American foreign policy responsible for the deaths of countless millions from an ideological war against Communism in Korea and Vietnam to God knows what they went for in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Didn't Bengalis and Pakistanis butcher each other in '71 in the name of national integrity for the former and justice with a hint of ethno-linguistic nationalism for the latter. Or that some Kurds clash with the Turkish Govt. for an Azad Kurdistan for the former and again National Integrity for the latter.

Aren't the Greeks oppressed by the ever so democratic EU with all of their policies being despotically coming out of Brussels....now that they've taken all those bailouts.

Haven't secular societies the world over gone over board and actually oppressed and visibly castigated religion in their quest to maintain equilibrium and harmony in the society.

Haven't the people in all of the above instances been washed away by impassioned rhetoric and made a fool out of by politicians and ended up giving their tacit and conspicuous endorsement to all of the above.

So in short...isn't religion just another intensifier that can be replaced by any other because there are a myriad of such intensifiers out there. Anything that we identify with strongly, whether its religion, ethnicity, country, a set of ideals..heck even human rights has the potential for gross exploitation and hence abuse.

What is the link between imperialism and secularism?

 

[Developereo]

Islamic countries from Morocco to Indonesia are trying their hand at finding the right mix of Islamic and Western values. In some countries, there is also the influence of Dharmic religions. The quest is to find what seems to work in all these societies and filter out the mistakes. Countries like Turkey are better positioned to experiment because they have an open society and a mature political system, while others are taking their first baby steps out of dictatorship. In a sense, it is an exciting time and there will be failures, but the good news is that, with global media, each country will be able to learn from others' experiences.

I just have to add one thing in favor of secularism. One crucial aspect of modernity is the idea of egalitarianism. Societies of the past have been very hierarchical -- barring, perhaps, the Greek democracies, although I don't know the details. One aspect of a modern state is that all citizens should have equal rights. In that context, it becomes problematic to elevate one religion above others. The only solution is to accept all religions as valid, as far as the state is concerned.

 

[DarkPrince]

Really? you are giving Nazis and Soviets as Secular examples?! Seriously Armstrong... just showing the worst possible thing won't get you anywhere... Why don't you look at Norway, Switzerland, Netherland, Germany, UK, Luxemburgi Monaco?

Romans/Greeks/Chinese? Medieval Islam as nothing to do with todays Islam and muslims... Medieval Islamic scholars were more humanist than Islamic scholars now and some of them even supported secularism....

---------- Post added at 12:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 PM ----------



What is the link between imperialism and secularism?

we r trying 2 protect islam

ur so called secularism will distroy it

 

[Deno]

Firstly let me make one thing crystal clear. I do not think the West is the model we should strive for. This may be the first post you read by me, but i have on several accounts mentioned that. What i meant with the Enlightenment was the Age og Enlightenment in the West which staretd aroung 18th century Age of Enlightenment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
The point i was trying to make is that the fault of the Ottoman empire was to isolate itself from the developments around the European continent when half of European lands was conquered by themselves. Technology and science came to a total halt in the last period of the Ottoman thanks to incompetent leaders. I don't say we should copy-cat the West. That is why i recommend as the OP suggest to find our own strenght by intermingling Islam and Science/Technology. Ataturk tried to isolate the country from Islam and that has not been optimal for Turkey. Contrary it has halted political and educational development for some. Turkey, as every other country on earth, is unique. We should cope with our own problems and issues in our own way. That is exactly what Ataturk failed to observe.He completely removed all the Islamic institutions and tried to copycat European laws and society. That is what made Turkey unstable for very long time. Because certain people simply could not or did not want to live like a European when their ancestry and roots were of complete different kind.

I simply reject to believe as you that Europe should be our model. Turkey should develop its own unique society by being in peace with Islam instead of rejecting Islam from the system. People want to live as a Muslim and wants to be respected citizen and hold their heads high even if they wear headscarf. It is a big shame on us as Turks that we still see bad treatments of Muslim women just because they choose to wear the headscarf etc. We have simply chosen a wrong path since the founding of the republic. If you read the article by Adivar you will come to understand it much better. Islam and politics, science, technology modernity goes hand in hand if you truly follow what Allah has chosen for us.

The materialistic world view imposed by West into our own lands is simply not what we should strive for. Instead we should be able to live in harmony with our sorroundings and develop our own unique country, because we can build much better than what we have at the moment. We should free ourselves from the chain set by secularism which constantly disrupts the country with nonsense propaganda machine, which even the majority of the citizens dislikes. We are not some sheep who have to be constantly reminded of Ataturk's greatness and the things he brought to the country, why do we not look at an alternative perspective and look at what he did not bring the country? Like religious freedom and respect for our own culture and islam?

I am sorry to say this, but the time i have spent on this forum i have been able to observe one clear pattern on people who associate themselves with secularist thought. I don't want to elaborate one that since i expect that enlightened people will be able to understand what i am talking about.

You really didn't live in Turkey for a long time did you? Because if you, you would know that when people want to work in goverment jobs they start to wear scarf (what a coincidence)... And no women is being abused because they wear scars while you can't say the same for women who don't wear scarfs and live in central Anatolia where the conservitives made hell hole for modern human....

 

[indushek]

Islamic countries from Morocco to Indonesia are trying their hand at finding the right mix of Islamic and Western values. In some countries, there is also the influence of Dharmic religions. The quest is to find what seems to work in all these societies and filter out the mistakes. Countries like Turkey are better positioned to experiment because they have an open society and a mature political system, while others are taking their first baby steps out of dictatorship. In a sense, it is an exciting time and there will be failures, but the good news is that, with global media, each country will be able to learn from others' experiences.

I just have to add one thing in favor of secularism. One crucial aspect of modernity is the idea of egalitarianism. Societies of the past have been very hierarchical -- barring, perhaps, the Greek democracies, although I don't know the details. One aspect of a modern state is that all citizens should have equal rights. In that context, it becomes problematic to elevate one religion above others. The only solution is to accept all religions as valid, as far as the state is concerned.

Interfaith talks can help a lot so that any confusions or unnecessary tensions can be mitigated. Also it is important that as a modern state any kind of controversy whatever it may be should be discussed openly. Afterall at the end of the day all are citizens of that country they live in and its safety and security is paramount for their well being and of their future generations.

 

[Developereo]

How to say? I definitely agree with you on most. But I just doubt. This is close to follow one's own inclination, I doubt it, I think the Muslim conservative force is powerful.


We can't backseat driver for the future, it may be good, like you said, if there are more common people become Muslim scholars, do you believe it can make a radical change to the Muslim community. This is the future, I can not evaluate it, but we know that, at least it has no place in history, there have only two examples in history, Iran and Turkey, Iran is more close to your point of view, but your point of view is a follow one's own inclination or just depend on the civil power, the seeds can germinate, this is very different. Although we cannot backseat driver for the future, but I have some doubts. Because it had not happened in history.

During the golden age of Islam, there was no incompatibility between being Muslim and being scientifically knowledgeable. The status quo advocated by some Islamists today is partly due to their own insecurity, and partly in response to people's fear of change. This is exacerbated by the failure of governance in most Muslim countries where people seek solace in known things, i.e. religion.

The crucial factor is stable and effective governance -- that's what differentiated the golden age of Islam from the decay that followed. When governance is provided, then the natural human instinct of materialism and self-propulsion takes over, people break new ground, and religious scholars are forced to adapt.

 

[Deno]

condescending Post...

 

[Developereo]

Interfaith talks can help a lot so that any confusions or unnecessary tensions can be mitigated. Also it is important that as a modern state any kind of controversy whatever it may be should be discussed openly. Afterall at the end of the day all are citizens of that country they live in and its safety and security is paramount for their well being and of their future generations.

Absolutely. Mistrust grows when communication is broken and stereotypes take over. A healthy understanding of the nation's diversity is a must for a socially harmonious state. Again, it does not mean people have to hide religion. Those of us living in the West accept that many aspects of daily life have a strong Judeo-Christian tinge, and that's fine. People in a predominantly Muslim country would accept Islamic symbols in daily life, just as people would understand the importance of Hinduism in India's cultural heritage, or Taoism/Buddhism in China's.

 

[untitled]

Interfaith talks can help a lot so that any confusions or unnecessary tensions can be mitigated. Also it is important that as a modern state any kind of controversy whatever it may be should be discussed openly.....

There always will be elements who will try to break down harmony between different religious groups for their ulterior wicked motives. One act of vandalism and years of goodwill and peace between the communities goes down the tube

 

[huzihaidao12]

I make a temporary and short summary.

There is an adaptive problem, when the Muslim world (society and country) from the agricultural civilization full of vitality into the industrial civilization, the Muslims did not achieve their own development in the competition in the industrial age, which is not suited, the key is where those not suited ? This is a great system problem, I can not answer.

Some members felt that Islam limits the freedom of thought, in other words, it is not suited to some in the way of thinking, some members objected to this view, I'm an atheist, do not know enough about Islam, so there is no personal comments in Islamic thought However, sometimes, some problems are not right or wrong, as some members say, Islam encouraged science and knowledge, this is true, I believe. Just as no one can say Developereo opposed to modern science, but I guess Developereo although you can accept a reform in the Muslim community, but you are against a thoroughly secularized, right? how to say? my personal thoughts, your ideas are right, but on other points of view, because there are different things in your eyes, as a reform it is already enough to Developereo and some other well-educated Muslim, but whether this reform is sufficient for most Muslims, they do not have a good education, even a basic modern education, I personal point of view, if I make a choice, just look if it is enough to meet the need for a Muslim community as a whole, like the French Revolution, a radical reform of a lot of big mistakes, but it is sufficient in driving force, which requires Muslims you own choice and decision. can only say that Turkey's answer is a complete overhaul of the founding period. Iran also has the same answer in the King period.

 

[huzihaidao12]

During the golden age of Islam, there was no incompatibility between being Muslim and being scientifically knowledgeable. The status quo advocated by some Islamists today is partly due to their own insecurity, and partly in response to people's fear of change. This is exacerbated by the failure of governance in most Muslim countries where people seek solace in known things, i.e. religion.

The crucial factor is stable and effective governance -- that's what differentiated the golden age of Islam from the decay that followed. When governance is provided, then the natural human instinct of materialism and self-propulsion takes over, people break new ground, and religious scholars are forced to adapt.

This is still a laissez-faire, I personally will keep the view at this point.

Of course, a stable and effective governance, but I personally think that the problem of Muslims is not adapted to the industrial age, if it has a stable and effective governance, and that you have adapted to the industrial era, Iran and Turkey. The key is how to get a stable effective governance? laissez-faire, I do not think can get, at least it did not happen in history.

 

[huzihaidao12]

It was very similar to China's reform and the Japanese culture is influence by the Chinese civilization, but Japan is a small, "small boat is easy to change direction ", Japan can carry out a rapid and thorough reform, Chinese civilization is a huge social, turned the bow takes a long time. but times will not wait for you, especially in the colonial era, you can not quickly adapt to the industrial age, you will be lagging behind, "If you're behind, you will be beaten", this lesson is deep and painful to the bone marrow to us.