Islam, Pakistan and other people's image, our faults and so on!

[Rusty]

I never said Islam was your problem. I said expoliting Islam for myopic gains was the problem. That is the symptom. You have become so defensive about Islam that everytime somebody says anything about Islam, you become so angry and worked up as if somebody cut your genitals off.

I mean why so serious? You take your religion seriously; Good for you; but keep it within the walls of your homes. Why mix it with the functioning of the state?

Continued:

...and then you mixed it with 'Kashmir Shah-Rag and Kahsmir Banega Pakistan' and erected this edifice of an imagined enemy which should never even have been the enemy in the first place.

...the Generals smelled an opportunity and they took it.

Then came the 'Mujahideen' and 'Jihad', Islamic terms that were so exploited out of context by those very Generals that today these have become part of the everyday vocabulary in Pakistan.

...and slowly it all started spinning out of control.

BTW, I'm sorry but I don't believe that education will solve it for you guys. Not in the short-term, at least. Education needs time to bear fruits, mostly decades. I don't think you have that much time. Pakistan is already at the breaking point and some desperate measures are badly needed.

Besides, if education could have solved the problem, you'd never see truckloads of lawyers (educated!) showering rose petals upon a killer and celebrating him.

So it's definitely not education.

If I was angry I would say some choice words about Indians. No no, I am not angry.
I am defensive tho.
And can you blame me?
Every chance you get, you people insult Islam or Muslims.
You people make it no secret about your extreme hatred of Muslims.

And no, who are you to tell us how to run our affairs.
We will mix things as we see fit.
Just like you people see fit to send people to jail for eating beef, we see fit to mix our morality with the state.

So kindly keep your (unwanted) opinions to yourself.
If we want to hear the opinions of people who hate us, we will ask you

 

[CaptainJackSparrow]

yes, i agree its not a national issue but the extremist leaders r still capable of provoking people. makbul fida hussain, taslima nasreen, salman rushdie are the burning example. in a secular society u dont expect those to happen.

Who told you India was secular?

India is trying to become secular. We are improving day-by-day.

Just like we are trying to become a better democracy, day-by-day.Call it Kaizen.

The important thing is that things are improving, not worsening.

 

[scorpionx]

can u enlighten me more about ur comment on secularism in india? so far i thought i am in a secular country and i was proud of that.

 

[CaptainJackSparrow]

can u enlighten me more about ur comment on secularism in india? so far i thought i am in a secular country and i was proud of that.

I also used to think the same way.

Until one fine day I realised that there are 2X amount of good things (with respect to secularism) that we, as in our country as a whole, do and -X amount of bad things that we do. So net amount of good things we do is X.

Now let's say the Gold standard for true secularism is 10X.

That's what I meant. We're not secular. We have proclaimed that we shall try to build a perfectly secular state (of magnitude 10X) and currently we are at X. So we're working towards the goal.

 

[scorpionx]

Thanks for sharing ur views. hope v touch the "10X" mark soon.

 

[CaptainJackSparrow]

Thanks for sharing ur views. hope v touch the "10X" mark soon.

Soon? Unlikely. May be after 5 decades. Still it will be a great achievement if we could bridge a divide of 6-7 centuries in 1 century.

 

[Zarvan]

First of all , as a Pakistani and as a human these are certain things I want to share with people.

As a person I acknowledge all goods&bads of my country ,my own self and so on!

I understand that yes every one thinks we Pakistanis are extremists and even if certain people try to persuade it seems as if its all a tyranny and unreal! Right?
But people it's not compulsory that were there is bad there is no good. Every person has a habit
to blame others and even if I say you know my country people are like this and this but it's wrong first it's everyone's duty to correct himself when you've done you help other through your behaviour.

Honestly neither have I ever thought bad of India , it's a great country and when we are together
the whole world could be in our control or at least we can be in great use of each other but all our
Leaders are synonymous with treachery by USA or any other external power but we did have an
excellent leader " Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto" he made us a nuclear power, and he good relationships with India signing the world bank and so on. But Zia ul haq was synonymous with treachery by
USA which lead in Zulfiqar's execution.
When British came to sub-continent what did they started
making hindus and muslims fight. There is no religion until humanity is there.


Pakistan has great talents but they are not unbringed, only some are.
Two of our country's children took 24 subs and scored 22 A's and 23 A's but how huge was this
taken!

Education

We have a strategy in number of our schools whether they provide good education or not but to
forcefully guide children to upbring there talents while in Europe a children who is a genius is
the only one they take ahead.

But an only way to a good life here and then onwards after life is to be modest , in medium and
not blaming others.
Sari Insaan ki baat hoti hai yeh nahi ke banda shuru ho jai mere pass ye nahi hai or woh nahi hai.

We Pakistanis are no extremists and no taliban. Media is negatively bias towards us.

Islam allows dance singing, music everything except for ill treating, killing , being bias, or
being unkind.
Now however if people try making are image bad then we are not wrong though might be are
political leaders do certain actions and things which brings bad but either they are synonymous
with treachery in league of the American or any body else.

England was earlier also a non-ethical and non - flourished country one with less education but at that time certain of Muslims were flourishing but soon the British realised here wrongs and they followed the Muslims but some non-ethical people who though didn't like Islam joined as then it
was easier to conquer lands. Which is why some extremists and non-ethical things have ended up into Islam.
Quran is not only for Muslims , but you can find science, maths and everything else.
We are even not allowed to say that you know this religion is wrong or to make bad things out.
Quran is a complete code of life not only based on religion but life too.

First as a Muslim I give a dam about the image and specially I don't expect west and forces of kufr to be happy with Muslims because that is clearly stated in Quran and in Islam many things are tolerated and many things are not tolerated so what Muslims need to do is establish Islamic system and stop thinking of what the forces of Kufr thinks

 

[EnidZaini]

Excuse me you are wrong, Islam stresses idols of brotherhood and humanity not extremism. Mind your language those of you who
think all external forces or non Muslims are wrong. They have the right to say things. Religion is within you. If GOD had us praying
and talking all time of religion than why did he make people , can you spend your life staying a mosque all day. Did our Prophet(PBUH) spread Islam through praying or behaviour. If you can stress idols of religious criticism , then there is no need of being a muslim. What does our religon say kisi kay Jhuta khuda ko bhi jhuta na kaho warna wo tumhare sache khuda ko jhuta kahe ga"

We are born muslms by birth and other too. If you are a good human you will go to heaven.


Though education is important but on the other hand being a good human is as important, So please we are all friends. Hinduism got it's idols of caste system eradicated by Bhagti movement and Islam spread wide across because of it's justice.

We will flourish, if our leaders donot hide their faults through stressing Islam.Islam is within and I do keep it within.
One who brings his religion everywhere is a very boring and non-balanced person. Please we are the two nation
theory(India and Pakistan).

 

[EnidZaini]

No logics people?

 

[vsdoc]

Such well intentioned threads are best left to Pakistanis to ruminate on internally.

Anything an Indian contributes, no matter how well intentioned or sincere, will come across as condescending or pontificating.

It also drives the Pakistanis away, and sometimes its better to be quiet and just listen.

 

[Hulk]

First of all , as a Pakistani and as a human these are certain things I want to share with people.

As a person I acknowledge all goods&bads of my country ,my own self and so on!

I understand that yes every one thinks we Pakistanis are extremists and even if certain people try to persuade it seems as if its all a tyranny and unreal! Right?
But people it's not compulsory that were there is bad there is no good. Every person has a habit
to blame others and even if I say you know my country people are like this and this but it's wrong first it's everyone's duty to correct himself when you've done you help other through your behaviour.

Honestly neither have I ever thought bad of India , it's a great country and when we are together
the whole world could be in our control or at least we can be in great use of each other but all our
Leaders are synonymous with treachery by USA or any other external power but we did have an
excellent leader " Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto" he made us a nuclear power, and he good relationships with India signing the world bank and so on. But Zia ul haq was synonymous with treachery by
USA which lead in Zulfiqar's execution.
When British came to sub-continent what did they started
making hindus and muslims fight. There is no religion until humanity is there.


Pakistan has great talents but they are not unbringed, only some are.
Two of our country's children took 24 subs and scored 22 A's and 23 A's but how huge was this
taken!

Education

We have a strategy in number of our schools whether they provide good education or not but to
forcefully guide children to upbring there talents while in Europe a children who is a genius is
the only one they take ahead.

But an only way to a good life here and then onwards after life is to be modest , in medium and
not blaming others.
Sari Insaan ki baat hoti hai yeh nahi ke banda shuru ho jai mere pass ye nahi hai or woh nahi hai.

We Pakistanis are no extremists and no taliban. Media is negatively bias towards us.

Islam allows dance singing, music everything except for ill treating, killing , being bias, or
being unkind.
Now however if people try making are image bad then we are not wrong though might be are
political leaders do certain actions and things which brings bad but either they are synonymous
with treachery in league of the American or any body else.

England was earlier also a non-ethical and non - flourished country one with less education but at that time certain of Muslims were flourishing but soon the British realised here wrongs and they followed the Muslims but some non-ethical people who though didn't like Islam joined as then it
was easier to conquer lands. Which is why some extremists and non-ethical things have ended up into Islam.
Quran is not only for Muslims , but you can find science, maths and everything else.
We are even not allowed to say that you know this religion is wrong or to make bad things out.
Quran is a complete code of life not only based on religion but life too.

The bottom-line is both sides have exaggerated the evil on other side and the story has been told so many times that people start taking their perception as reality, which is not true. I got to interact with Pakistani's on this forum and instead of using the regular stereotypes I changed my thinking based on what I learnt here, in order to gain from diversified forum, one has to keep an open mind.

So it will be better if we refrain from using generalization and stereotypes

 

[Srinivas]

Problem started when you guys started mixing Islam with Nationhood. Even Arabs don't do that.

The cocktail of religious emotion and nationalism defined by the fear of an enemy which should have never even been the enemy in the first place, was what started it all. This granted the military an unjustified legitimacy which it should never have in a democracy.

The US, India, the UK, France, Japan, Germany: nowhere does the military enjoy such unjustified legitimacy as it does in Pakistan.

...and then once the Generals had tasted power, there was no looking back. They were never to hand over the reins back to the 'bloody civilians'.

Only long-term solution for Pakistan is to send the Army back to the barracks and hand over the country back to the civilians. By 'handing over', I mean handing it over in every sense of the phrase.

No buddy the guys in military are the same guys who think they are the decendents of mugals of afganistan. From birth on wards pakistan was under these military bureaucracy. These west punjabi military genrals restricted the democratic leaders from the begining onwards.

 

[EnidZaini]

Oh thanks to all of you for at least understanding. That we are not the stereo types all ways picturized on Television.
Thanks a lot

 

[Solomon2]

We Pakistanis are no extremists and no taliban. Media is negatively bias towards us.Islam allows dance singing, music everything except for ill treating, killing , being bias, or being unkind.Now however if people try making are image bad then we are not wrong though might be are political leaders do certain actions and things which brings bad -

EnidZaini, Pakistan is plagued with terrorists who are extremists in every sense you mention. Have you considered what you can do - not others, but yourself - to help remedy matters?

Our fault is basically being intolerant to other religions and not giving our own people full rights. Right to education, right to healthcare, right to speak indigenous languages.

As long as a person's religion is an issue of State these problems will continue for people will then be encouraged to accuse others of being "bad Muslims" as a route to political, economic, and social power.

You would have to permit and continue to embrace Pakistanis who chose to change their religion from Sunni to Ahmadi to Shia to Jew to Christian. And it isn't enough for such laws to be on the books if they are ignored; you'd have to be willing to prosecute, convict, imprison, and maybe even execute those who transgress such laws, such as leaders of a mob who kill Pakistanis accused of blasphemy.

Our problem has always been short sighted leaders who used any means to keep themselves in power.

Which is why the 1971 war happened - Z.A.B. wanted power and provoking civil war was the way to get his own country with himself at the top. "Education, employment, and rule of law" were no help in avoiding tens of thousands of needless deaths. What would have helped would have been democratic enforcement of humanistic ethics.

I'm not certain other Pakistani politicians are so different but thankfully none since have demonstrated Z.A.B.'s combination of ruthlessness and intelligence.

problem is with militant Islam, apologies for the lack of the term I mean the one that sees sword as a way to resolve an argument or a problem -

All accepted denominations of Islam agree that death in battle for Islam is a sure ticket to Paradise, yes? That's not at all the "same principle brought the Children of God back to their "birth right" with Tora in one hand and Uzi in the other."

why the most deprived, poor and neglected areas have the highest crime rate? mostly miscarriage of justice, social injustice, exploitation and so forth.

Right first time. Swat was better ruled under responsible princes than an irresponsible Pakistan.

you cant argue and debate with the people who have been lied to and betrayed many times. they see duplicity and criminal silence by the champions of democracy and proponents of human rights time and time again.

Exactly how the Roman Republic ended.