Islam and science: The road to renewal - ECONOMIST

[Azazel]

Thanks got it but it in no way says what Quran said ..Its written " Animals and plants come into being in earth and in liquid because there is water in earth, and air in water, "
It doesn't say or hint in anyway that animals are made up of water I don't know how you translated it that way..Truth is ranging from sun and moon in floating orbits ,embryo,Iron from outside till this humans being made of water you were not able to refute anything based on logic with some proof to support your claims.

They are both part of the same theory called Abiogenesis which basically stated life arises from inorganic matter such as water,mud etc.The both of these verses came from an abiogenic theory called Spontaneous generation.One of the biggest supporters was Aristotle.This theory remained one of the fundamental part of Biology and even Christian Church incorporated in to there Genesis.Augustine of Hippo discussed spontaneous generation in The City of God and The Literal Meaning of Genesis, citing Biblical passages such as "Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life" (Genesis 1:20) as decrees that would enable ongoing creation..But in 17th Loius Pasteur debunked it with his Biogenesis which proved that living things only generate from living things.

When you posted that verse it was immediately clear that it has more to do with Aristotle's spontaneous creation rather than the water content in cells.There is nowhere in that verse it discusses about cells.That's why I posted the Aristotle hoping you will use your logic and get enlightened,but clearly you haven't.We can argue about it all day long, but you can never prove what you wrote in post #82.Its just some thing you want to believe or you've been indoctrinated.

I can debunk every single claim you put here,But in that process I afraid I might end up offending a lot of Good Muslims like @FaujiHistorian.

Its nothing personal had I born at your place and I wouldn't have questioned by birth beliefs I would have been like you only but I would give you sincere advise some day take a warm shower,wear some comfy clothes and put on some soft cologne and go out in open in a moon less night and look at thise millions of stars and just think for a moment who made all this and you be answered from deep with in you ..Just try this it will relieve you of your current misery..

I don't believe in things like Birth beliefs,we don't born in to a belief,we are indoctrinated in to it,Suppose what if you were adopted by somebody who followed a different religion.I believe in rationalism above faith.Rationalism holds that truth should be determined by reason and factual analysis, rather than faith, dogma, tradition or religious teaching.That's why I don't follow religious beliefs.Although some people may say Faith is the underlying rationality,but for me its more of an apologetic philosophy much like Pascal's Wager.I'd rather prefer the other way.I hope put your mind in to understanding what those posters mean.

 

[Albatross]

I thought it is You who is trying to convince us that this is some type of intricate verse talking about science, not the other way around.

The Quran has one liner material of not very complex verses, but then don't try to extrapolate and make it sound like some scientific prediction.

It is in no way any sort of prediction scientific or otherwise many things Quran said had already been proved and many are going to be in coming times .What I mean was it gave some knowledge which was out of world according to those time e.g Sun and moon both are floating in their own orbits..1400 years ago people dint even know about all this or did they especially that even sun along with this whole galaxy is moving as well and is not stationery.I am not here to be personal with anyone there was a guy who engaged me and now hes run away after becoming speechless so I dont wanna engage another one you can just go through previous pages and if you have something called "sense" you will get it other wise you wont ever.

 

[user1]

at least read properly Mr.

Talete (624–547 BC) is credited with the observation that the “principle of nature is water,” and "all life begins with water".... 1000 years before birth of quran.


all life begins with water -------------------------------------enough .

How did that knowledge reach Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), the places were far apart, communications and travel limited and written word in short supply. Even if Greek knowledge did reach to Arabia the best contender as a theory of nature was described by Aristotle: Earth, Fire, Water and Air. That would also be a safer bet.

Why choose only water? Why or how only reach the right answer in Quran?

 

[Redbull]

It is in no way any sort of prediction scientific or otherwise many things Quran said had already been proved and many are going to be in coming times .What I mean was it gave some knowledge which was out of world according to those time e.g Sun and moon both are floating in their own orbits..1400 years ago people dint even know about all this or did they especially that even sun along with this whole galaxy is moving as well and is not stationery.I am not here to be personal with anyone there was a guy who engaged me and now hes run away after becoming speechless so I dont wanna engage another one you can just go through previous pages and if you have something called "sense" you will get it other wise you wont ever.

No, I'm not one to be personal too.

Btw, the verse that you provided was said by Galen centuries before, he is very popular even at the time of the Prophet and his ideas were well known around the World.

Here, I'll put the verses in the Quran side by side with Galen's work so you can see the similiarity. @Armstrong

Koran 23:13
Then (We) placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging.

Galen (centuries before Muhammed in "On Semen Volume 5 part 3")
The first is that in which, as seen in both abortions and dissections, the form of semen prevails.

Koran 23:14
Then we fashioned the drop a clot of blood.

Galen
Now in the case of semen voided in the sixth day he (Aristotle) still calls it semen. But when it has filled with blood . . .

Koran 23:14
. . . then fashioned we the clot a little lump

Galen
filled with blood, and heart, and brain and liver are still unarticulated and unshaped yet by now have certain solidity.

Koran 23:14
. . . then fashioned we the little lump bones, then clothed the bones in flesh.

Galen
After nature has made outlines of all of the organs and substance of the semen has been used up, the time has come for nature to articulate the organs precisely and bring all the parts to completion. Thus it caused flesh to grow on and around the bones.


So not only does the Quran have 4 stages just like Galen, they are also exactly the same.

 

[Azazel]

How did that knowledge reach Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), the places were far apart, communications and travel limited and written word in short supply. Even if Greek knowledge did reach to Arabia the best contender as a theory of nature was described by Aristotle: Earth, Fire, Water and Air. That would also be a safer bet.

Why choose only water? Why or how only reach the right answer in Quran?

I am not sure whether you will like this or not,but Independent scholars(most of them from the west Dr. John Wansbrough, American historian who taught at London University's School of Oriental and African Studies; Professor Joseph Schacht, professor of Arabic and Islam at Columbia University in New York and a leading Western scholar of Islamic law; Dr. Patricia Crone, a scholar, author and historiographer of early Islamic history working at the Institute for Advance Study; R. Stephen Humphreys, professor of history and Islamic studies at the University of California at Santa Barbara; and Professor Andrew Rippin, professor of history and specialist in Islamic studies at the University of Victoria, B.C., Canada) studying the Qur'an and Hadith, have concluded that the Islamic scripture was not revealed to just one man, but was a compilation of later redactions and editions formulated by a group of men, over the course of a few hundred years. The Qur'an which we read today is not that which was in existence in the mid-seventh century, but is a product of the eighth and ninth centuries. It was not conceived in Mecca or Medina, but in Baghdad. It was then and there that Islam took on its identity and became a religion. Consequently, the formative stage of Islam was not within the lifetime of Muhammad, but evolved over a period of 300 years.And at that time Baghdad was the centre of the knowledge at that time in that part of the world and they definitely had access to works of all Hellenic philosophers especially Aristotle.
Of course, these are all independent opinions.

 

[Armstrong]

@Redbull : How did the Prophet (PBUH) know of Galen & his work when Greek works weren't translated into Arabic till well into the Abassid Caliphate ?

Nor is there any indication to suggest that the Prophet (PBUH) was a literate man capable of appreciating Galen's Scientific Discovery nor is this something that would be discussed in common parlance.

 

[Redbull]

@Redbull : How did the Prophet (PBUH) know of Galen & his work when Greek works weren't translated into Arabic till well into the Abassid Caliphate ?

Nor is there any indication to suggest that the Prophet (PBUH) was a literate man capable of appreciating Galen's Scientific Discovery nor is this something that would be discussed in common parlance.

Btw refresh the page, step four came out wrong.

 

[Redbull]

@Redbull : How did the Prophet (PBUH) know of Galen & his work when Greek works weren't translated into Arabic till well into the Abassid Caliphate ?

Nor is there any indication to suggest that the Prophet (PBUH) was a literate man capable of appreciating Galen's Scientific Discovery nor is this something that would be discussed in common parlance.

There are reasons not to believe in the "illiterate so it's impossible that he could've copied" nonsense, even if you can't read, it is still possible to learn aurally. The Arabs were not out of this world, they were in contact with many civilised people, the persians, the syrians, but judging by the evidence:

Samarkand Kufic Quran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The oldest surviving Quran is of the 8th century(which is not even complete) so by that standard, of evidence, it is a later interpolation.

 

[humanfirst]

[MENTION=142895]
Water is essential for all living things. We all know that water is vital to life but the Quran makes a very unusual claim:

[size=+2]We made every living thing from water? Will they not believe? [21:30][/size]

In this verse water is pointed out as the origin of all life. All living things are made of cells. We now know that cells are mostly made up of water . For example, 80% of the cytoplasm (basic cell material) of a standard animal cell is described as water in biology textbooks.

Can every constituent of living organism be derived from water..?If not then the argument that "all living things are made from water" is not scientific..In fact when we read this along with other modes of origin proposed in quran-It can be clearly seen that quran is applying the now defunct elemental theory of origin(All materials are made of elements earth,fire,water,air etc),As quran in another ayah says "man is made of mud","Angels are made of fire etc"..Even the same old Aristotelian mistake of considering fire as a one of the root elements of creation is carried on in quran in attributing "fire" as the creation material of angels..

[size=+1][We] then formed the drop into a clot and formed the clot into a lump and formed the lump into bones and clothed the bones in flesh; and then brought him into being as another creature. Blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators! (Qur'an, 23:14)[/size]

Lump into bones and later the bones getting clothed in flesh..?Now please tell me at which stage the embroyo is completely osseous tissue(bone)before it is clothed by "flesh"?Do you know that bone(along with other connective tissues such as muscle,blood etc) is formed from the germ layer mesoderm along with development of other germ layers ectoderm and endorerm which constitutes other type of tissues/organs in later developmental stages.And contrary to quranic claims,several parts that constitutes "flesh" formes before the ossification(bone formation) starts at 44-48 days of embroyogenesis.

Btw Quran also says sperm is created from between backbone and ribs,which is absolutely unscientific.

Okay moon and sun science is explaining now what would you say about this which dates back to 1400 years ago.
[size=+1]It is He who created night and day, the Sun and the Moon, each floating in its orbit. [21:33][/size]

The Quran would have been wrong according to astronomers just a couple of decades ago. But we now know that the Quranic account of the Sun’s motion is consistent with modern Astronomy.

But I guess you will say we knew it 5000 thousand years ago as well

My dear during quranic times people did believe in the sun,moon and all heavenly bodies revolving in their orbit because "that was what they saw every damn night and day"..The concept of stationary sun came much later after the model of sun centric solar system became scientifically accepted..
People during that times also believed sky as some physical roof,which we now know is a false belief..Whats quran's take on this..?Instead of saying the physical roof appearance of sky is an optical illusion,quran tries to portray it as a heavenly miracle with which the sky is kept in place without any visible pillars supporting(from earth)..!!

 

[user1]

I am not sure whether you will like this or not,but Independent scholars(most of them from the west Dr. John Wansbrough, American historian who taught at London University's School of Oriental and African Studies; Professor Joseph Schacht, professor of Arabic and Islam at Columbia University in New York and a leading Western scholar of Islamic law; Dr. Patricia Crone, a scholar, author and historiographer of early Islamic history working at the Institute for Advance Study; R. Stephen Humphreys, professor of history and Islamic studies at the University of California at Santa Barbara; and Professor Andrew Rippin, professor of history and specialist in Islamic studies at the University of Victoria, B.C., Canada) studying the Qur'an and Hadith, have concluded that the Islamic scripture was not revealed to just one man, but was a compilation of later redactions and editions formulated by a group of men, over the course of a few hundred years. The Qur'an which we read today is not that which was in existence in the mid-seventh century, but is a product of the eighth and ninth centuries. It was not conceived in Mecca or Medina, but in Baghdad. It was then and there that Islam took on its identity and became a religion. Consequently, the formative stage of Islam was not within the lifetime of Muhammad, but evolved over a period of 300 years.And at that time Baghdad was the centre of the knowledge at that time in that part of the world and they definitely had access to works of all Hellenic philosophers especially Aristotle.
Of course, these are all independent opinions.

This is just a fringe of Western researchers writing with religious conviction and vested interests to create doubts about Islam. A far larger number of Western researchers have concluded - by looking at the language and writing style of Quran - that it was written by a single person. The writing style persists throughout. If you google Arabic language, you will learn that it has at least 8 major regional varieties which differ in diction and writing style. Quran is written in the linguistic style of Arabian version, also the Arabic is same as spoken in seventh century Arabia not the 8th, 9th or 10th century Baghdad or Syria.

There are plenty of signs in Quran which tell about it's origins, whether it is the City of Makkah or the battlefield of Badar, or the tribe of Quresh or the Holy Sanctuary or the customs of that age.

It would be just too much of an anomaly that the advanced, civilised cultures of Mesopotamia or Byzantine Syria will forge a creation myth of their credo in the Arabian deserts.

If we look at history, it moves the other way, whenever a new wave of invaders dominates an area with which it is profoundly impressed it just assumes the identity of the advanced culture.
For example:

Alexander of Macedon when conquered Persia, he was so impressed with their civilisation that he tried to adopt their culture and made Persia as his new home.

Temujin when conquered Central Asian states, he was impressed with their civilisation so much that when he chose his title it was in Turkic language: Chengiz Khan

When Turks conquered Constantinopole they considered themselves the inheritors of Rome, consider the name of famous poet Jalal-ud-din Rumi (Roman).

Muslims of Baghdad at it's zenith considered themselves to be the intellectual heirs and continuation of Ionian legacy.

These people you have mentioned are not misconceived; they are mischevious! plain and simple.

 

[humanfirst]

@Redbull : How did the Prophet (PBUH) know of Galen & his work when Greek works weren't translated into Arabic till well into the Abassid Caliphate ?

I would also like to remind you that galons theory is mostly BS in the light of modern researches and findings in emroyology.

 

[Armstrong]

There are reasons not to believe in the "illiterate so it's impossible that he could've copied" nonsense, even if you can't read, it is still possible to learn aurally. The Arabs were not out of this world, they were in contact with many civilised people, the persians, the syrians, but judging by the evidence:

Samarkand Kufic Quran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The oldest surviving Quran is of the 8th century(which is not even complete) so by that standard, of evidence, it is a later interpolation.

You can only ask questions when you know what you're talking ! How can someone without the slightest medical or scientific background ask questions of a nature that weren't even accepted as viable facts till much much later.

Furthermore all of those works were in Ancient Greek which were later translated into Arabic during the Abbasid time not before that. And there is nothing to suggest that the Prophet (PBUH) either knew any language except his own or studied under the tutelage of someone who had the slightest medical or scientific knowledge to share with him these facts.

Additionally Galen's own works were, as I understand, forged & reforged from his own days to well into the Renaissance with much that is attributed to him that he may or may not have authored; what is to suggest that the aforementioned 4 stages are his works or not seeing that, as I understand, no single authoritative collection of his works exists ?

Likewise the Kufic Koran that you mentioned, I understand, would have been amongst those same copies that Usman bin Affan (the 3rd Caliph of Islam) ordered to be burned with the original ones in the Qureshi dialect preserved. So if it fraught with some differences that Usman was justified in his actions as they were intended to be.

In addition to the Koran one cannot forget the Oral Tradition of transmitting the Koran from one generation of Hufaz to the other & there hasn't been, to the best of my knowledge, any discrepancy from one Oral Tradition to another whether it be amongst the Hufaz of Al-Andalus or those of Afghanistan.

Lastly the semen bit is just one of the many alleged miracles of the Koran & if they turn out to be true that it would be fantastic to assume that a person with no history of even the slightest formal education in the sciences would have the presence of mind to ask the right question from the right people when he didn't even venture out of Hejaz or Syria, as far as we know.

 

[user1]

There are reasons not to believe in the "illiterate so it's impossible that he could've copied" nonsense, even if you can't read, it is still possible to learn aurally. The Arabs were not out of this world, they were in contact with many civilised people, the persians, the syrians, but judging by the evidence:

Samarkand Kufic Quran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The oldest surviving Quran is of the 8th century(which is not even complete) so by that standard, of evidence, it is a later interpolation.

This is not the oldest surviving copy. Just search for 'oldest surviving copy of Quran'.


Infact, most of the great religious texts have first been memorised by the disciples of a Prophet and written later; whether Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism or Christianity. Among the Muslims we have tens of thousands of living examples of Muslims who can memorise whole of Quran. The culture in 7th century Arabia would be more dependent on oral tradition than the written texts, not just because of a shortage of writers but also due to a scarcity of material to write on.

this from wikipedia:

The society during the time of the Prophet was predominantly oral and for this reason he would recite verses of the Qur'an to his Companions and instruct them to memorize it. Due to this, people question whether the Qur'an was ever written and collected during the time of the Prophet. While writing was not a common skill during the Prophet’s time, Mecca, being the commercial center, had a number of people who could write. It is believed, according to some scholars that up to 48 scribes, including Zayd ibn Thabit and Ubayy ibn Ka’b had recorded verses of the Qur'an. This provides evidence that the Qur'an most likely existed in written form during the life of the Prophet even if it was not compiled into one text.

 

[Armstrong]

I would also like to remind you that galons theory is mostly BS in the light of modern researches and findings in emroyology.

Dunno I never studied Biology nor could I find similarities between his theories & what was alleged in the Koran unless one strains to see a connection there.

 

[humanfirst]

H Even if Greek knowledge did reach to Arabia the best contender as a theory of nature was described by Aristotle: Earth, Fire, Water and Air. That would also be a safer bet.

Why choose only water? Why or how only reach the right answer in Quran?

Earth is mentioned as the element of creation of man..More ridiculously,fire is mentioned as the element of creation of angels and djinns..And why water for living things..?Probably the faulty observation that life sprungs up from barren land after rain,which is poetically described as a miracle in quran.