Islam and Democracy

[fhassan]

Like the Jew Solomon, the author does not to bother with empirical evidence and plays on prejudices of their daft reader base.

The first paragraph alone is a lie; the Jew would have to throw his ancestral golden age into the trash in order to stand by it.

 

[Gazzi]

I will very shortly be adding an indepth post with regards to Jewish ethics, their treatment of women and inequality and the foundations of Judaism,

The thread creator thinks this is a bashing forum for Islam then he is sadly mistaken. Beliefs of other religions will be bought forward and discussed openly just like we Muslims do here also, I also intend to bring Hinduism and Christianity into the equation eventually and see how they fit in with comments made here and the modern age.

 

[fhassan]

^^
Stick to Judaism - Christians have not said anything, best to leave them out - if you trust me.

 

[ajpirzada]

A jew does not look good Talking about Islam as we dont give a Sh!t about Judaism or what do they do in their areas of jurisdiction .
This is what we expect not any one to tell us how to live !!!!!!!!!

only a request. plz dont target anyone's religion.
he is allowed to have his views and fully free to discuss them. i dont see him flamin anything only by posing an article which talks about islam and democracy

 

[niaz]

Regret to admit that most of what is written in the articles is correct. Turkey however is not a good example. The regime may be secular but it is not truly democratic as it has defined limits within which laws can be made. For example, until recently it was a criminal offence for Kurds to write and publish any thing in Kurdish. Therefore rights of the minorities are severely curtailed. In a true democracy, parliament is sovereign. Not in Turkey, Army (a non elected body) can intervene if and when it feels the principals of secularism are being violated.

I strongly feel that Islam is not against democracy; only that democratic tradition was squeezed off as soon as Khilaafat became hereditary. While I do agree with most of what the article states, I believe that the fault lies with the misguided followers of Islam not the Islam itself. Religious perceptions change over time. Most glaring example is that the most pacifist religion in the world (Christianity) changed into the most cruel and inhuman religion when it sanctioned the infamous Inquisition.

Pakistanis may have voted in the election but political parties lack democracy within themselves. There is no democratic tradition in the PPP, PML (N) and MQM. Only parties that hold elections for their leadership are JI and PML (Q). Even for JI the candidates are vetted and short listed. JUI, ANP and PPP have become hereditary dynasties, a slap in the face of democracy. The hypocritical champion of democracy Mr. Nawaz Sharif nominated his wife Kulsum Nawaz to lead the party when he was in prison! What a farce.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

^^ I would totally agree. People basically become misguided by political propagandas or other negative influences and then the difference between right and wrong begins to blur.

 

[AHMED85]

do you know what is Islam as you say you are sociologist
to my remind sociology deal with neutral.

and about democracy what do you think what kind of lack you find in Pakistan democracy.
you just take an article and talking about Islam
To my advise to read Islam carefully my be you can find right way of life if you have right hood.

 

[Kompromat]

only a request. plz dont target anyone's religion.
he is allowed to have his views and fully free to discuss them. i dont see him flamin anything only by posing an article which talks about islam and democracy

Sir i wholly understand what you are saying but i am not targeting Judaism neither meant to do so!

All i tried to do is to give an argument about infiltrating in one's religion , all i said is if we do not tell JEWS how to live in their places then who gives them the right to tell( dictate) us what to follow or what is good or bad for Islam and Muslims?

Regards:

 

[Kompromat]

This is not about me. This thread is about Islam, democracy, and Pakistan. Mernissi is a Muslim sociologist and clearly wants to promote this discussion among other Muslims.

Note that I have not posted a personal opinion about Islam or about what the author wrote in this thread.

But you seem to be quite interested in what he is saying ! , i do not totally disagree or agree with the article , because this article may be right for Morocco but not for many Islamic Nations.

But we would like to know what motivated you to post this article i mean why are you so worried about Muslims??

 

[Solomon2]

Like the Jew Solomon, the author does not to bother with empirical evidence -

No, the fault is entirely mine, for I didn't include the author's empirical evidence in my excerpts. Do you want more? You can read the book - it's available in U.K. libraries.

 

[DavyJones]

well lets see - Turkey's a democracy so is Bangladesh (in most parts). Indonesia is a flourishing democracy. I think there is a problem with certain regions of the world rather than Islam itself.

 

[EjazR]

There are a large number of muslim majority countries that are democratic or are atleast moving in that direction. Like I have said beofre being democratic is not an on/off switch but a work in progress. Is US that has a voter tunout of less than 50% more democratic than say Australia that has voter turnout close to 95+%?

Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Malaysia e.t.c. are all muslim majority countries that have been moving towards democratic governance. The Central Asian countries although not democratic atleast claim to follow the presidential system and consider themselves as secular democratic countries.

The problem is that for period starting 1930s onwards, secular and democratic governance has been seen as anti-religion, particularly as Turkey was one of the first country to go down that path. Then you had the Shah of Iran that out of other stupid things, forcefully passed orders for women offcials an students to wear skirts and remove hijab and would actually use excessive force to crack down on any protest to ask for freedom of religion. The Soviet government in Central Asia and Afghanistan also enforced the same anti-religion mindset. Saddam Hussein who actually came through a democratic election and established a secular state in Iraq went the same way cracking down on religious and ethnic groups. You have the siilar situation in Tunis and Algeria where Jews actually have more rights to follow their religious and cultural freedoms than muslims themselves.

What countries like these and Turkey should realise that being democratic does not mean anti-religion or following the French model, but its about being religion-neutral. US is a pretty good example in this regard.


Those groups who advocate the establishment of an "Islamic state" and some vague concept of caliphate like JI, Hizb-ut-Tahrir are going against Quranic principles and traditional Islam by using Islam for political purposes. These movements also gained force because of mismanagement and lack of proper democratic governance and frequent military coups.

A short appraisal on Islam and Democracy by an Islamic scholar is here:
The Concept Of Democracy in Islam

 

[niaz]

Those groups who advocate the establishment of an "Islamic state" and some vague concept of caliphate like JI, Hizb-ut-Tahrir are going against Quranic principles and traditional Islam by using Islam for political purposes. These movements also gained force because of mismanagement and lack of proper democratic governance and frequent military coups.

A short appraisal on Islam and Democracy by an Islamic scholar is here:

The Concept Of Democracy in Islam

The article you refer describes exactly what I believe true Islam to be. However, a religion is more commonly known not by what it should be but what its followers practice. Regret to say that despite the Quranic verse “La ikra ha fid deen” meaning that there is no coercion in Islam. We see that in practice the case is entirely different.

There is no denying the fact the majority Sunni (accept the hereditary Khilafat) as well Shia (believe in hereditary Imamate) Islam as practiced today, does not follow democratic tradition.

There have been prominent Mulsim leaders of the subcontinent such as the famous Ali brothers who were willing to give their life for what was a very degenerate dynastic kingdom in Turkey just because Turkish Sultans styled themselves as Khalifas after they captured Hijaz. You must be aware that opposing a Khalifa or Amir ul Momeneen is considered a ‘Wajib ul qatl’ act.

Islam as preached and practiced by the followers of Abul Wahab and Imam ibne Timiyiah is more in vogue ever since Saudi Arabia became rich with oil money. We have seen women being caned in Afghanistan just because a small part of their hand was showing. I have witnessed zealous pasdaraan in Iran insisting by force that young girls as little as 6 year old should cover their heads. Not one Islamic scholar of note has voiced concern over this coercion. JI bigots reached the limit when they cried “ Sufi Mohammed auo hum tumharey saath hain’ with Sufi Mohammed openly declaring that even talking part in elections is un Islamic. There are many honorable members of this forum who also believe in the Taliban style Islam and would jump to their deference at the slightest provocation.

Problem lies in the fact the religion has always been a dogma; each sect firmly putting forward their opinion and not willing to accept those of others. The Islam that I believe in, is not against democracy but the Islam that majority of people in world practice and believe is a different matter altogether. It reminds me of a rubayee of Omar Khayyam.

Quamain mutafakkar und dar rahe deen
Quamain mutahayyar und dar shakko yaqeen
Mee tarsam keh bang ayad z kameen
Ka eey bekhabraan rah na een ast wa na een.

Translation.

Some are thoughtful on their way
Some are doubtful, so they pray.
I hear the hidden voice that may
Shout, "Both paths lead astray

 

[Valiant_Soul]

The Islam that I believe in, is not against democracy but the Islam that majority of people in world practice and believe is a different matter altogether.

Appreciate the inputs by you guys. BTW you should join EjazR in his efforts to dismantle this otherwise popular belief that Islam is a matter of compulsion through political affairs.

 

[gambit]

There are a large number of muslim majority countries that are democratic or are atleast moving in that direction. Like I have said beofre being democratic is not an on/off switch but a work in progress. Is US that has a voter tunout of less than 50% more democratic than say Australia that has voter turnout close to 95+%?

No more and no less. Compulsory voting is undemocratic. People should be as free NOT to vote as they are free to vote. Of course, the ones who do not vote have no good cause to complain if the electeds are not to their liking. For US that have less than %50 voter turnout, it can be argued two ways: Either we are overall satisfied with the current system that even not voting would do no harm. Or that a large segment of the American electorate is truly so cynical that they became apathetic about their own country. But no matter which way, everyone still retains their rights to vote and the freedom to vote when the opportunity is available.