ISI vs the CIA - Tensions and Mistrust Rise

[Mutee]

and for ppl who say they are fighting Taliban werna poori qom mur jati sir Taliban ko army kay marnay ki zorret nahi hai wo apni mout khud mur jayin gay !!! Allah ko zalimon ki madut nahi chiyeah apnay deen ki surbulundi Kay layi!!!!!! Taliban are the biggest criminals of human history traitors of Islam they scared everyone of my religion ya Assan mout nahi muraun gay goli say khuda unhi bohat buri mout marray ga ! remembe hazarat ALi qol "kufur ka neezam chul sukta hai zulm ka nahi "

 

[Mutee]

brother aatish everyone knows what Islam is don't we have Koran and sunnah why listen to molvi who intice hatred but what will u do with ppl who reject these ???? I agree with your post generally u make good and valid points

 

[AAtish]

brother aatish everyone knows what Islam is don't we have Koran and sunnah why listen to molvi who intice hatred but what will u do with ppl who reject these ???? I agree with your post generally u make good and valid points

*sigh* If we could just follow Quran and Sunnah.. but most of our people still believe in "baba ji" and "sain baba" and "hazrat so and so".. so let the nation groom a bit.. haosla rukho.. sanwarnay main time lagta hai..

 

[Mutee]

you are right sir from a religious pov but who will stop army sharif and zardari from taking $$$?

 

[AAtish]

you are right sir from a religious pov but who will stop army sharif and zardari from taking $$$?

I have been out of the country for pretty long time.. but what i can read online and what i can hear from news channels and from my family members (when i talk to them).. it seems that Pakistanis have started realizing what is good and what is bad.. i think this would be the first Election (whenever it happens) where there would be more than 25% of people who'd not vote on the basis of "biradry" or "shaheed".. People are getting fed up with all that stupid ideas.. (well you never know.. its Pakistani Public)..

Anyhow, to me.. its a good start.. means that there are people now who think beyond the boundaries of cast and creed.. people who think about the nation and nationalism.. These people.. no matter how less in number they are.. if they are more than 10%.. they could stop army sharif and zardaris from taking $$$s.. why?.. cuz those who understand are literate people.. and those who are literate, also know how to force a change..

I honestly believe that a change is on the horizon.. something POSITIVE is coming..

 

[Mutee]

I will pray that whatever you say may happen and happen soon in Pakistan inshallah

 

[AAtish]

I will pray that whatever you say may happen and happen soon in Pakistan inshallah

Okay.. Mark my words.. write them down.. Bookmark them.. paste them on the wall..

Insha Allah within the next five-ten years, if i am calculating right, Pakistan will be a force to reckon with.. Economically as well as Infra-structurally.. nothing from outside.. nobody is going to come to support us.. its going to be People of Pakistan who are gonna change the history.. Insha Allah

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

I have been out of the country for pretty long time.. but what i can read online and what i can hear from news channels and from my family members (when i talk to them).. it seems that Pakistanis have started realizing what is good and what is bad.. i think this would be the first Election (whenever it happens) where there would be more than 25% of people who'd not vote on the basis of "biradry" or "shaheed".. People are getting fed up with all that stupid ideas.. (well you never know.. its Pakistani Public)..

Anyhow, to me.. its a good start.. means that there are people now who think beyond the boundaries of cast and creed.. people who think about the nation and nationalism.. These people.. no matter how less in number they are.. if they are more than 10%.. they could stop army sharif and zardaris from taking $$$s.. why?.. cuz those who understand are literate people.. and those who are literate, also know how to force a change..

I honestly believe that a change is on the horizon.. something POSITIVE is coming..

change indeed is on the horizon but it wont arrive at the back of the next election... trust me... these elections will keep us in the status quo...

 

[GUNS-N- ROSES]

How the CIA lost in Pakistan

Posted on 22 March 2011.


The day the war in Afghanistan same to stop was the day the earth stood still. The Non-cooperation of Pakistan in the war in Afghanistan was not only felt in Washington but also in Moscow, Delhi and London. The prominence given to Mr. Saeed on Kashmir liberation day shook the arrogance and hubris of the Superpower that wants to exit Afghanistan.

Diplomats in Delhi were in disarray. Those in Europeans capitals wondered where it was headed. All wanted it to end. For about two months the war in Afghanistan was frozen, held hostage to the fate of “Raymond Davis’ and the CIAs efforts to extricate him from the gallows.

Diplomats around the world and and analysts in Langley were concerned that Pakistan’s non-cooperation in the American war in Afghanistan could lead to trouble in the region if CIA haters were given more freedom to move.

America got a bit worried when the smoke signals from Islamabad grew blacker and the skies became more ominous. Concerns grew when ISI chief Pasha sent a message of silence to the CIA. All joint spy operations were suspended. The flow of information from spies to spies was reduced to a trickle. Even the Pakistan Ambassador to Washington (divisively labeled the US Ambassador to Pakistan) Hussain Haqqani was asked to send a message that the era of unstinting and open intelligence sharing with foreign agencies in Pakistan was over. General Kayano also sent the same message that foreign operatives would not longer enjoy unfettered access to the Pakistani countryside.

The Pakistani government has turned a new leaf and had grown a conscience. Either that or it was livid with anger at the indiscretions of the CIA. The Pakistani spy agency had already started a 24/7 “counter-intelligence operation” on all Western diplomats. Mercenaries belonging to outfits like Blackwater/Xe were deeply affected by Pakistani spies who were ordered to follow them around and essentially let them know that they were wanted. Typical anti-spy operations were initiated to harass the CIA operatives who were running amok all over the country. Kids on bikes, and officials on vehicles trailed them on this missions. The round the clock surveillance had been limited to Bharati, Russian and Afghan diplomats. Now it was extended to all European and American diplomats.

In the post 9/11 world the US and Pakistan had agreed to share intelligence. The tree of suspicion grew and grew. The US suspected the Pakistanis of running operations without their knowledge and the Pakistanis knew that the CIA had established its own offices and was not being honest with Islamabad. During the chaos of a new government in Islamabad, right after the fall of Musharraf’s governemnt in 2008, the CIA saw a colossal opportunity and began spreading its tentacles into Pakistan. Xe mercenaries hired local Pakistanis, and began hiding out in safe houses in posh US localities. The boisterous hooliganism of the private contractors led to several scuffles in crowded places in the larger metros of Pakistan. However each time this happened, the contractors were rescued by the the US Embassy. The US operatives were running independent rogue operations which kept on growing. Nothing seemed to be off limits to the contractors.

This modus operandi (MO) was a breach of trust and the Pakistanis were deeply chagrined. First they released the news about ht eoperatives to the newspapers, and the media, then they sent subtle messages to Washington. None of it registered. The US tin ear didn’t quiet get it. They didn’t see it as a direct intervention in Pakistan.

The alarm bells had gone off. The Army had sent the messages to the PPP government. The was sending warnings to the Prime Minister and to the COAS. In 2009, after the PPP government had steadied its legs a bit, Islamabad started to react. It began slowly at first and even then in a very cautious matter. First it held back diplomatic visas to hundreds of Americans who were posing as staff-members of the US Embassy. Then the reaction became more feverish, and a very serous and concerted counter-intelligence operation was started.

Things came to a head when “Raymond Davis” over-reacted to him being followed and murdered his followers in cold blood. The discovery of pictures, the links to the TTP, and the presence of the GPS tracking system opened the eyes of the most skeptical in the Pakistani establishment. The PPP was not unaffected the vents. A groundswell of opposition to the US indiscretions were bubbling up through the rank and file. Once the Davis affair exploded, Islamabad clearly told the Americans that the CIA’s presence in Pakistan would have to be severly curtailed and henceforth it would have to be limited administrative chores only. CIA personnel would have to be restricted to the consulates and embassies. They would be free to write reports on Pakistan. Pakistan informed them that all intelligence operations would be dealt with through the ISI–just like the way it was in the 80s when the ISI was running the Anti-Soviet war in Afghanistan.

The US Administration got scared by Pakistani tactics–especially after it outed the name of the CIA Chief in Pakistan. With the annual Talib Spring beginning in a few weeks, the intense and perhaps decisive battle in Afghanistan is just beginning. America’s huffing and puffing did not quite scare the Pakistanis. The relationship is being redefined. According to the Washington Post “The CIA has launched an internal review of how it trains and deploys security officers overseas after a fatal shooting by one of the agency’s contractors in Pakistan triggered a diplomatic crisis and new recriminations between the two nations’ spy services, U.S. officials said.”

Islamabad was also promised a new deal, a more powerful strategic role in South Asia than Bharat, a diminished role of the CIA and the new lay of the land where the ISI would have full reign of operations in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Those who think that Pakistan is a winner in this diplomatic wrangle may be wondering about the CIAs next moves in South Asia.

George Will in an fascinating article opposing the war in Libray tells an interesting tale:

“On Dec. 29, 1962, in Miami’s Orange Bowl, President John Kennedy, who ordered the Bay of Pigs invasion, addressed a rally of survivors and supporters of that exercise in regime change. Presented with the invasion brigade’s flag, Kennedy vowed, “I can assure you that this flag will be returned to this brigade in a free Havana.” Eleven months later, on Nov. 2, 1963, his administration was complicit in another attempt at violent regime change — the coup against, and murder of, South Vietnam’s President Ngo Dinh Diem. The Saigon regime was indeed changed, so perhaps this episode counts as a success, even if Saigon is now Ho Chi Minh City.”

Intrusive US interference in Iran led to the Islamic revolution.

Washington plans moves years in advance. While Islamabad seems to have kicked the CIA out–the world awaits the other shoe to fall.

The China factor has been ignored by most analysts. The Chinese Premier arrived in Pakistan and promised to invest $20 billion in Pakistan in the next five years. This colossal spending and will fundamentally transform the Pakistani infrastructure. Islamabad has also discovered hundreds of Billions of Dollars of Gold and Uranium in Balochistan. With the Middle East in turmoil, the Tajiks and the Kygyz and the Turks are swarming to Pakistan for a long term relationship. Pakistan as the fifth largest Nuclear power with intercontinental ballistic missiles cannot be overtly attacked. A few hundred CIA agents have caused damage to the psyche of the people, but the CIA cannot fundamentally undermine the country–in this sense they have failed.

hm, interesting article. In my opinion, The davis saga has left a deep scar on ISI-CIA relationship. while for once pakistan was able to assert itself and get an amicable solution to the davis problem, i am sure people sitting in langley and washington wouldnt have been pleased with this.

i think pakistan places too much importance on external factors. it wd do well to concentrate on internal factors because it is internal factors which are more damaging in the end.

 

[1 ummah]

*sigh* If we could just follow Quran and Sunnah.. but most of our people still believe in "baba ji" and "sain baba" and "hazrat so and so".. so let the nation groom a bit.. haosla rukho.. sanwarnay main time lagta hai..

kesay theek hoon gey khud?? jb aik molvi jo khutbay me kuch bol day chup kra diya jata hai,media fahashi phelanay k kaam atta hai,schools level say he secular soch promote ho rai hai,zindagi ka maqsad paisa hai bs,...ghaddaroon ki ghaddari say to jamadar bhi wakif hain pr krnay ko kuch nai krta ko..kiyu???
kiyu k soch nai hai,solution nai ptta,link he missing hai!! us ki wjja jo me nay likha wo sb gov k control me hai..is forum pr b ds saal me 1 insaan ki soch nai bdli ja skti,us k liyae SYSTEM BADALNA ZAROORI HAI!! SB ISLAM K CONTROL ME HO GA TO ISLAM PHAYLAY GA, PHAYLAY GA TO SAMJ AEY GA!!!

 

[AAtish]

kesay theek hoon gey khud?? jb aik molvi jo khutbay me kuch bol day chup kra diya jata hai,media fahashi phelanay k kaam atta hai,schools level say he secular soch promote ho rai hai,zindagi ka maqsad paisa hai bs,...ghaddaroon ki ghaddari say to jamadar bhi wakif hain pr krnay ko kuch nai krta ko..kiyu???
kiyu k soch nai hai,solution nai ptta,link he missing hai!! us ki wjja jo me nay likha wo sb gov k control me hai..is forum pr b ds saal me 1 insaan ki soch nai bdli ja skti,us k liyae SYSTEM BADALNA ZAROORI HAI!! SB ISLAM K CONTROL ME HO GA TO ISLAM PHAYLAY GA, PHAYLAY GA TO SAMJ AEY GA!!!

Bohat simple hai bhai.. People are getting irritated.. as you yourself is getting fed up with it all.. People who are forcing this kind of change and imposing secularism are not more than 1% of total population.. it won't take very long to clear them out when their time comes and when common people will take matters into their own hands.. Well to be honest.. it has already started.. pockets of people have started agitating.. and it will only grow.. Government either will have to abide by the requirement of people or get kicked off.. simple as that..

 

[Guest01]

How the CIA lost in Pakistan

Posted on 22 March 2011.


The day the war in Afghanistan same to stop was the day the earth stood still. The Non-cooperation of Pakistan in the war in Afghanistan was not only felt in Washington but also in Moscow, Delhi and London. The prominence given to Mr. Saeed on Kashmir liberation day shook the arrogance and hubris of the Superpower that wants to exit Afghanistan.

Diplomats in Delhi were in disarray. Those in Europeans capitals wondered where it was headed. All wanted it to end. For about two months the war in Afghanistan was frozen, held hostage to the fate of Raymond Davis and the CIAs efforts to extricate him from the gallows.

Diplomats around the world and and analysts in Langley were concerned that Pakistans non-cooperation in the American war in Afghanistan could lead to trouble in the region if CIA haters were given more freedom to move.

America got a bit worried when the smoke signals from Islamabad grew blacker and the skies became more ominous. Concerns grew when ISI chief Pasha sent a message of silence to the CIA. All joint spy operations were suspended. The flow of information from spies to spies was reduced to a trickle. Even the Pakistan Ambassador to Washington (divisively labeled the US Ambassador to Pakistan) Hussain Haqqani was asked to send a message that the era of unstinting and open intelligence sharing with foreign agencies in Pakistan was over. General Kayano also sent the same message that foreign operatives would not longer enjoy unfettered access to the Pakistani countryside.

The Pakistani government has turned a new leaf and had grown a conscience. Either that or it was livid with anger at the indiscretions of the CIA. The Pakistani spy agency had already started a 24/7 counter-intelligence operation on all Western diplomats. Mercenaries belonging to outfits like Blackwater/Xe were deeply affected by Pakistani spies who were ordered to follow them around and essentially let them know that they were wanted. Typical anti-spy operations were initiated to harass the CIA operatives who were running amok all over the country. Kids on bikes, and officials on vehicles trailed them on this missions. The round the clock surveillance had been limited to Bharati, Russian and Afghan diplomats. Now it was extended to all European and American diplomats.

In the post 9/11 world the US and Pakistan had agreed to share intelligence. The tree of suspicion grew and grew. The US suspected the Pakistanis of running operations without their knowledge and the Pakistanis knew that the CIA had established its own offices and was not being honest with Islamabad. During the chaos of a new government in Islamabad, right after the fall of Musharrafs governemnt in 2008, the CIA saw a colossal opportunity and began spreading its tentacles into Pakistan. Xe mercenaries hired local Pakistanis, and began hiding out in safe houses in posh US localities. The boisterous hooliganism of the private contractors led to several scuffles in crowded places in the larger metros of Pakistan. However each time this happened, the contractors were rescued by the the US Embassy. The US operatives were running independent rogue operations which kept on growing. Nothing seemed to be off limits to the contractors.

This modus operandi (MO) was a breach of trust and the Pakistanis were deeply chagrined. First they released the news about ht eoperatives to the newspapers, and the media, then they sent subtle messages to Washington. None of it registered. The US tin ear didnt quiet get it. They didnt see it as a direct intervention in Pakistan.

The alarm bells had gone off. The Army had sent the messages to the PPP government. The was sending warnings to the Prime Minister and to the COAS. In 2009, after the PPP government had steadied its legs a bit, Islamabad started to react. It began slowly at first and even then in a very cautious matter. First it held back diplomatic visas to hundreds of Americans who were posing as staff-members of the US Embassy. Then the reaction became more feverish, and a very serous and concerted counter-intelligence operation was started.

Things came to a head when Raymond Davis over-reacted to him being followed and murdered his followers in cold blood. The discovery of pictures, the links to the TTP, and the presence of the GPS tracking system opened the eyes of the most skeptical in the Pakistani establishment. The PPP was not unaffected the vents. A groundswell of opposition to the US indiscretions were bubbling up through the rank and file. Once the Davis affair exploded, Islamabad clearly told the Americans that the CIAs presence in Pakistan would have to be severly curtailed and henceforth it would have to be limited administrative chores only. CIA personnel would have to be restricted to the consulates and embassies. They would be free to write reports on Pakistan. Pakistan informed them that all intelligence operations would be dealt with through the ISIjust like the way it was in the 80s when the ISI was running the Anti-Soviet war in Afghanistan.

The US Administration got scared by Pakistani tacticsespecially after it outed the name of the CIA Chief in Pakistan. With the annual Talib Spring beginning in a few weeks, the intense and perhaps decisive battle in Afghanistan is just beginning. Americas huffing and puffing did not quite scare the Pakistanis. The relationship is being redefined. According to the Washington Post The CIA has launched an internal review of how it trains and deploys security officers overseas after a fatal shooting by one of the agencys contractors in Pakistan triggered a diplomatic crisis and new recriminations between the two nations spy services, U.S. officials said.

Islamabad was also promised a new deal, a more powerful strategic role in South Asia than Bharat, a diminished role of the CIA and the new lay of the land where the ISI would have full reign of operations in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Those who think that Pakistan is a winner in this diplomatic wrangle may be wondering about the CIAs next moves in South Asia.

George Will in an fascinating article opposing the war in Libray tells an interesting tale:

On Dec. 29, 1962, in Miamis Orange Bowl, President John Kennedy, who ordered the Bay of Pigs invasion, addressed a rally of survivors and supporters of that exercise in regime change. Presented with the invasion brigades flag, Kennedy vowed, I can assure you that this flag will be returned to this brigade in a free Havana. Eleven months later, on Nov. 2, 1963, his administration was complicit in another attempt at violent regime change  the coup against, and murder of, South Vietnams President Ngo Dinh Diem. The Saigon regime was indeed changed, so perhaps this episode counts as a success, even if Saigon is now Ho Chi Minh City.

Intrusive US interference in Iran led to the Islamic revolution.

Washington plans moves years in advance. While Islamabad seems to have kicked the CIA outthe world awaits the other shoe to fall.

The China factor has been ignored by most analysts. The Chinese Premier arrived in Pakistan and promised to invest $20 billion in Pakistan in the next five years. This colossal spending and will fundamentally transform the Pakistani infrastructure. Islamabad has also discovered hundreds of Billions of Dollars of Gold and Uranium in Balochistan. With the Middle East in turmoil, the Tajiks and the Kygyz and the Turks are swarming to Pakistan for a long term relationship. Pakistan as the fifth largest Nuclear power with intercontinental ballistic missiles cannot be overtly attacked. A few hundred CIA agents have caused damage to the psyche of the people, but the CIA cannot fundamentally undermine the countryin this sense they have failed.

Poor attempt at trying to divert the attention from the fact that Pakistani Army and the ISI hyped the Davis matter to a crsendo and then simply backtracked under US pressure to let him go.
But have to raise hats to the aastonishing twist to the facts that this opinion is trying to bring. Showing the ISI and the Pakistani Army as winners when they had to actually let Davis go and the very next day CIA responded with the most damaging Drone attack and Kiyani and the ISI was just left condemning it. But to bring the Bharat angle was a nice touch. Well tried. Jope that this forum believes the stated opinion wholeheartedly.

 

[Guest01]

Bohat simple hai bhai.. People are getting irritated.. as you yourself is getting fed up with it all.. People who are forcing this kind of change and imposing secularism are not more than 1% of total population.. it won't take very long to clear them out when their time comes and when common people will take matters into their own hands.. Well to be honest.. it has already started.. pockets of people have started agitating.. and it will only grow.. Government either will have to abide by the requirement of people or get kicked off.. simple as that..

This is ctrange and contradictory. Just a few posts back, you stated that when people will not vote basis cast and creed then the dollars will stop being stolen and yet you now state that secularism is not acceptable and these people will die of. This reflects fundamental lack of clarity and cohesion in the two opinions. How is someone following their own belief or babaji allowing dollars to be stolen and what will change if these different belief followers are eliminated as you suggested. What will change with this secularism elimination?

 

[Mutee]

Liberalism is anti Islam and that's what we want to change so he's right

 

[Guest01]

Liberalism is anti Islam and that's what we want to change so he's right

BUt it is liberalism which is devoid of religion cast and creed and that is what our friend stated as a situation that will solve pakistan's problem. So what is the final verdict?