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ISI cleansed of extremist supporters?

ISI under military is a very dangerous concept.

I can't see how that is possible, or your suggestion feasible, since that would imply that the military itself should be under a 'civilian head'.

Instead of superficial changes such as appointing a 'civilian head', what is needed is for the Army and DG ISI to follow GoP policy at all time, and that has largely been the case since Musharraf's tenure.

In fact I can only recall one instance during BB's tenure when the ISI acted on its own (under Hamid Gul IIRC) - otherwise it has always acted in accordance with the COAS and/or GoP directives.
 
have you got any prove?
you blaimed ISI but don't forget about your Raw they really are the fanatic hindus!
after your comments you must change your Avatar from Peacefullndian into Anti-ISI hindu!
 
And there lies the ails of the southeast region equations. The paranoia of the ISI keeping the talibans in the back pocket for the future of the Afganistan equation, can not and will never reform ISI. Even though that statement of reforming the ISI is made under the preassure of the US, but the change will not come to the organization. Before talking about removing the radical application of the organization, a simple step of putting the organization into civil hand will do much good on reformation then any.

As has become apparent from the deluge of statements out of US officials recently (and Pakistani ), Pakistan maintaining contact with some Taliban factions as a hedge against the US leaving Afghanistan without really resolving the situation there is an 'open secret'. This is GoP policy for the time being.

As Gen. Patraeus himself acknowledged, this would be something the US would do as well.

This is not what is meant by 'reforms' in the ISI.
 
I fully support ISI no matter what happens, they have always done a great job. don't forget their only goal is to protect Pakistan, weaken ISI will means weaken Pakistan...we have faced huge problems after US invaded Afghanistan and when the NATO will get out of this region we will face other new problems, so we must safeguard our interests.
 
The GoP and many of us here have always maintained that the focus on the ISI as a 'state within a state' has been scapegoating and the creation of a bogeyman to tack on simplistic solutions to the Afghan problems, instead of explaining to the Western public the complexities and nuances of the challenge in the region.
There is ample evidence of this 'state within a state' phenomenon of the Pakistani intelligence services. It wouldn't play a key factor in the US foreign policy if this weren't true.
 
I fully support ISI no matter what happens, they have always done a great job. don't forget their only goal is to protect Pakistan, weaken ISI will means weaken Pakistan...we have faced huge problems after US invaded Afghanistan and when the NATO will get out of this region we will face other new problems, so we must safeguard our interests.

I fully support a purge of Taliban leaning efftards from the sole organization that protects Pakistan without any recognition. There are many of them in the military, but the last place Pakistan needs self appointed mullahs making critical decisions is in its intelligence services. I don't think our interests were safeguarded as much as they could have been. Pakistan now has a domestic based Taliban militia numbering in the 40,000s for instance.
 
There is ample evidence of this 'state within a state' phenomenon of the Pakistani intelligence services. It wouldn't play a key factor in the US foreign policy if this weren't true.

I don't believe it plays a significant role beyond rhetoric and headlines for media consumption to influence public opinion with a simplistic bogeyman analysis.

The structure of the ISI makes it beholden to the Army and the COAS, and there is only one verified case of the ISI (as I mentioned, under Hamid Gul) of the ISI bucking policy directions from the GoP and/or Military. I am willing to look at what other evidence you have in support of your contention.

The argument of the PA being a 'State within a State' is a more valid one IMO.
 
I've not read Ghost Wars so shoot me. Nor have I read Shuju Nawaz supposed excellent portrayal of the P.A. Mea culpa in spades as I'm certain both are critical.

Nonetheless, I've seen nothing from other sources, to include Bergen, that indicate America had a thing to do with the creation of A.Q. or the taliban for that matter.

Who plays the role of Robert Gates in your government.
 
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I've not read Ghost Wars so shoot me. Nor have I read Shuju Nawaz supposed excellent portrayal of the P.A. Mea culpa in spades as I'm certain both are critical.

Nonetheless, I've seen nothing from other sources, to include Bergen, that indicate America had a thing to do with the creation of A.Q. or the taliban for that matter.

Where exactly did I argue that America created Al Qaeda and/or the Taliban?

Blowing in the door half-cocked or what?

My points relate to the association of Pakistan with Al Qaeda.
 
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The ISI has powerful enemies and rivals, including some in the CIA. This factor should be considered when trying to rationalize the slandering campaign against them. The ISI is pretty professional, no doubt some of its bitterest critics have admitted it. Allegations of insubordination are little more than clumsy and unsubstantiated attempts at vilification.

EDIT: A piece on the ISI which I feel might be relevant here by the widely respected author ("provides a deeper understanding and some candid, and not altogether flattering assesments of Pakistan and the United States...": Research Director Forth Leavenworth)

Credit and Credibility: Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Press

So attacks in Afghanistan must be the work of Pakistan's dastardly Directorate of Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), yet again, because the New York Times told us the other day that "American intelligence agencies have concluded that members of Pakistan's powerful spy service helped plan the deadly July 7 bombing of India's embassy in Kabul, Afghanistan, according to United States government officials." The New York Times went on to claim that "The conclusion was based on intercepted communications between Pakistani intelligence officers and militants who carried out the attack, the officials said, providing the clearest evidence to date that Pakistani intelligence officers are actively undermining American efforts to combat militants in the region. The American officials also said there was new information showing that members of the Pakistani intelligence service were increasingly providing militants with details about the American campaign against them, in some cases allowing militants to avoid American missile strikes in Pakistan's tribal areas."

There are plenty of cliches ("powerful spy service" and "actively undermining" are splendid examples), but not a shred of hard evidence in this important story. There is not one bit of material that can be verified or even checked for accuracy. No names are named. There are declarations by anonymous "American officials" concerning supposed electronic intercepts of which no details are provided. But the New York Times and other US newspapers chose to blare to the world the unsupported conclusion that Pakistan is guilty of treason against itself.

It might be thought that the New York Times would have learned a lesson after being manipulated by the infamously incompetent and gullible reporter Judith Miller who made such a fool of the paper at the time of the US invasion of Iraq. She swallowed nonsense purveyed to her by un-named "government officials" and other anonymous and indeed malevolent sources, but the newspaper's editors just followed along and published the rubbish. Garbage in; Garbage out. As one of her colleagues said of her in the context of a combined story : "She has turned in a draft of a story of a collective enterprise that is little more than dictation from government sources over several days, filled with unproven assertions and factual inaccuracies."

To believe the sort of drivel that comes from "officials" of any nationality who refuse to be identified takes particular energy and dedication. But even those who are required to speak on the record are liars when it suits official purposes and policies. Take the VOA report in early July that "The Pentagon says no civilians were killed in an air strike Sunday in a remote area of eastern Afghanistan, which local officials say killed 27 people who were walking to a wedding . . . US military officials in Kabul say they believe the air strike hit its intended target, a group of militants. Pentagon Spokesman Bryan Whitman confirmed that view. "I can only tell you I talked to Afghanistan this morning, and they are very clear with that particular strike that they believe they struck the intended target and that there were not innocent civilians involved in that particular strike"."

The claim, the flat statement, that there were no civilian casualties was first made by unidentified "US military officials," then by a spokesman who had "talked to Afghanistan." To whom did he talk? To any Afghans? To anyone in the Afghan government? To an Afghan who had lost a wife or husband or children in the blitzed village of Deh Bala where so many civilians were killed? Of course not : he spoke with "Afghanistan" as represented by a bunch of unnamed US officials in Kabul. He then retailed the same rubbish, that "there were not [sic] innocent civilians involved," which was a lie, because the province governor stated with hard evidence - like bodies of children - that there had indeed been many civilian deaths.

Then the President of Afghanistan, Hamid Karzai, left his fortress in Kabul and flew to the stricken village to speak with the tribes, saying he had "come to share your grief." Now : is it likely that Karzai, beholden to Bush as he is, would have taken the trouble to do that if the US claim of no civilian deaths had been even remotely believable?

One has to give Karzai recognition for venturing into the region where the US bombing took place, because there is no doubt that by doing so his life was in extreme danger (possibly from a US airstrike like the one for which he went to offer condolences). We must give credit where it's due. But there is no credit, or credibility for that matter, due to the liars who try, with increasing success, to mislead the media and thereby the outside world, about the slaughter of civilians through incompetence. And when they kill so many scores of civilians by reason of technical or human ineptitude and then lie about the crimes, how can we believe mysterious unidentified "officials" who allege without evidence that Pakistan's intelligence agency was responsible for the bombing of the Indian embassy in Kabul?

Stories change ; usually when the lie has become too obvious for all the "officials" and other sources to continue spreading it. As happened with the killing of a bank manager and two of his staff by American troops on Baghdad's Airport Road on 25 June, for example. It was stated officially that "The attack left bullet holes in two of the convoy vehicles, and a weapon was found in the car;" but these were lies. Deliberate, unvarnished, straightforward, downright lies. Iraqi outrage was such that there had to be an investigation, and eventually a US spokesman had to say that the official description of the incident was poppycock from beginning to end. (Nobody was punished for telling lies or slaughtering civilians, of course : that would be too much to expect.)

There are dozens of stories like this. Most of the killings of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan are ignored because US military media releases are published unquestioningly by the world's newspapers. The words of US "officials" go straight into print without question and are presented as incontrovertible fact.

The evidence that US "officials" have lied to the depth of their bootstraps is, however, irrefutable. So why believe the unsupported word of nameless US officials that Pakistan plotted the Kabul bombing?

As a result of worldwide parade of a media report based on unverifiable declarations by anonymous "US government officials" there has been a dramatic dive, a terrible crash in relations between Pakistan and India. At the exact time when, for the first time in almost five years, there were exchanges of fire between soldiers of India and Pakistan along the Line of Control in Kashmir, the sadly disputed territory between the two countries, there suddenly appeared a US-sourced report that gravely endangers ongoing but fragile India-Pakistan confidence-building discussions.

Why?

The tale from unidentified US "officials" that Pakistan was involved in an attack on the Indian embassy in Kabul was published in a period when the governments of India and Pakistan are extremely vulnerable to religious and nationalist pressures. In Delhi the shaky coalition is apprehensive about elections next year and trying to be all things to all people; it is under enormous strain. In Islamabad there is a barely-functioning coalition of mutual distrust, and the country is desperately in need of external support that could promote domestic calm. Domestic and bilateral stability in the region, one would think, should be encouraged by foreign powers.

Yet "American intelligence agencies" and "United States government officials" tell newspaper reporters that Pakistan was involved in attacking the Indian embassy in Kabul, thus immeasurably increasing tension between Islamabad and Delhi (and Islamabad and Kabul, of course) and almost destroying their faltering but sincere approaches to rapprochement.

The extremely serious implications of such statements to reporters of a large US newspaper, and consequent international results, must have been understood by whoever made them. So why did they make them? What was the purpose? It certainly wasn't to encourage dialogue between two neighbours who distrust each other.

We will never know the motive, of course, because there is no means of finding out; just as there is no means of verifying the story. So once again some unaccountable US officials have sown even more distrust and created much more resentment in a region in which there is singular lack of trust and a marked inclination to believe the worst of neighbours. Whoever had the bright idea of spreading this malevolent tale must now have the satisfaction that it had the result of stirring up hatred and suspicion. Give credit where it's due. But credibility is quite another matter.
 
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I don't believe it plays a significant role beyond rhetoric and headlines for media consumption to influence public opinion with a simplistic bogeyman analysis.
It most definitely plays a role; in fact, it sets the premise of the entire relationship. It is the foundation of the absolute lack of trust in the Pakistani establishment which then solidifies the already unequal relationship. Other than some efforts in the public realm of diplomacy, most parties (at least in the recent diplomatic gathering on this matter) do not take Pakistan seriously. If anything some of the non-US representatives seem to be more openly critical of the mess vis a vis Pakistani intelligence services than their US counterparts who are well aware that their own predecessors contributed to the genesis of this $hitstorm.


AgNoStIc MuSliM said:
The structure of the ISI makes it beholden to the Army and the COAS, and there is only one verified case of the ISI (as I mentioned, under Hamid Gul) of the ISI bucking policy directions from the GoP and/or Military. I am willing to look at what other evidence you have in support of your contention.

The argument of the PA being a 'State within a State' is a more valid one IMO.
Sorry for not having clarified this earlier. The ISI isn't categorized as a state within a state by itself, but rather as one of the two most potent tools at the disposal of the PA (control over the nuclear arsenal and its supportive program being the other) which is undoubtedly a state within a state. The dual structure of the ISI which has been a talking point recently is a different matter altogether. Again, sorry for not having elaborated upon this point in my earlier post.

I will write a bit more about the evidence part as soon as I get a chance.
 
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It most definitely plays a role; in fact, it sets the premise of the entire relationship. It is the foundation of the absolute lack of trust in the Pakistani establishment which then solidifies the already unequal relationship. Other than some efforts in the public realm of diplomacy, most parties (at least in the recent diplomatic gathering on ******) do not take Pakistan seriously. If anything some of the non-US representatives seem to be more openly critical of the mess vis a vis Pakistani intelligence services than their US counterparts who are well aware that their own predecessors contributed to the genesis of this .

Allow me to rephrase my point. Top level Administration, defence and military officials use this 'ISI is a State within a State' rhetoric to influence opinion, including legislators and 'analysts' (that depend upon whatever information the Administration feeds them).

The foundation of distrust is laid in the form of the US Admin and media trumpeting this rogue intelligence agency acting counter to both US and Pakistani (government) interests. What this allows the US Admin. to do is avoid any serious analysis of the legitimate concerns Pakistan has, how Pakistan's national security concerns drive its policies (including what the ISI does) and therefore present a more 'palatable' picture of everyone (US and Pakistan) being on board, and the 'ISI/PA playing spoilsport. It seeks to suggest that even within Pakistan there is a large body of support for US policies, and only one 'rogue institution' opposes it.

I do not doubt that at the higher level Administration and military officials do see the situation more clearly, in all its complexity (and on rare occasions have hinted to that effect in the last month or so), but that is not how they choose to articulate it and 'sell' it.

Sorry for not having clarified this earlier. The ISI isn't categorized as a state within a state by itself, but rather as one of the two most potent tools at the disposal of the PA (control over the nuclear arsenal and its supportive program being the other) which is undoubtedly a state within a state.
I agree with you here, but that is not how the debate is typically characterized in the West, indeed it is almost always about how the ISI is acting alone.
The dual structure of the ISI which has been a talking point recently is a different matter altogether.
The 'dual structure' of the ISI implies that the ISI is a 'rogue', which leads us back to the original argument.

There is no dichotomy between the contacts that the ISI continues to retain amongst some of the Taliban, and GoP/PA policy of keeping Pakistan's bets hedged WRT the developing US strategy in Afghanistan.
 
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Bro we know that we have done some mistakes in the past, first of all our biggest mistake was being ally of U.S.A against Soviet Union. it was more usefull for us to remain neutral during cold war...maybe i'm wrong but we would have more benefits bcz both the Russians & U.S. will try to take us on their side.
2nd mistake was to leave Afghanistan on it's own after Soviet get out of the region(there was a Taliban regime but we didn't organize them well.)
our 3rd mistake was supporting U.S. in this fake war on terror.
we have being used by U.S. from past 30 years and now it's time to get us free from their influence and kick out all these traitor leaders & corrupt politicians from our lines.
The ironic thing is that U.S. always blame us for all the mess that is in Afghanistan but they forget who created all these Mujahideens? once they were called heroes by Americans, freedom fighters and now days they are called terrorists, who once combact against Soviet now are fighting against U.S.
ISI played a major role during the cold war & done a great job, it's because of ISI U.S. defeated soviet Union in Afghanistan and give independence to many countries like Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan bringing the end to the Soviet era...we trained their generals and key mens who combact against Russians in the Caucasus region.
ISI is not a joke, it's not like somebody claimed that mullah's are controling it or other BS. it's a very professional force which has only one major goal "Protect Pakistan" from any foreign or internal agression.
Our enemies are trying to destroy it and our corrupt politicians are doing great efforts to fulfill our enemy goals. But they will never made it...they must keep in mind that Pakistan is not a joke! we are a responsible Nuclear Power, we are the only Islamic country in the world which can help, lead and guide the hole Muslim world countries. for this our enemies fear us too much & trying to destroy us. but ISI along with our Armed Forces will always protect Pakistan n Allah also protects Pakistan! so our enemy has no chance to win ;)
Pak armed forces & Pakistan Zindabad!!
 
Excellent commentary but there is one point we need to emphasize - the role of CIA in Afghanistan.

CIA, along with RAW, is involved in drug traffiking and is also supporting insurgency in Pakistan.

No one knows about the budget of CIA. Agents are indemnified in most cases and the govt. of United States seems to be without any control.

GoP should openly raise concerns over the role of CIA and bring the evidence out in public.
 
GoP should openly raise concerns over the role of CIA and bring the evidence out in public.


I wish, i would get a nickle for everytime I have read the statement above, I would be a rich man!!!

That is the problem, GoP does not have evidence. Musharaff recently said that India is involved in Afganistan, but saying is one thing and bringing proof to the table is the other. Yeh, also recently I also heard that RAW was involved in the Britain with the Pakistanie students also!!!! There must be some paper trail for that laying around somewhere also.
 
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