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ISI aiding taliban or maintaining contacts?

The number is the most recurrent one being touted around. Rupee News has even claimed as much as 107 consulates. The most, the most conservative number quoted is also 8 consulates which is also a lot.

You don't even know how many consulates india has in afghanistan but you are sure they are training rebel armies right under the nose of the americans and british?

What benefit americans have in letting indians do it? orhas rupee news recently suggested that hindu zionists have taken over america from the jewish ones?


All excuses to justify your geopolitical ambitions of running the show in central asia.
 
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The number is the most recurrent one being touted around. Rupee News has even claimed as much as 107 consulates. The most, the most conservative number quoted is also 8 consulates which is also a lot.

frankly its a bigger BS than one can make up .........
 
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Going through the blogs so far, there seems to be a deep sense of paranoia of "encirclement" by India in GoP and public in general. Frankly speaking, the counsulates are just meant to oversee the various Indian agencies working in Afghanistan in various developmental projects. It is but understood that ELINT and Intel ops will be carried out there, that is every nations task and all nations, inclusive of Pakistan, are involved in it.

It is highly incredulous to believe that India is supporting elements in NWFP and FATA for the ares adjoining the pakistan border ARE NOT controlled either by India or effectively even by NATO (who would never let an Indian operation be launched from there anyways) let alone by GoA.

Assets that India DOES have indeed are: regular diplomatic staff, RAW operatives about whom ISI must have idea before even they had idea, members of ITBP (for protection of various agencies), members of Wireless Experimental Unit (WEUs, now these are the ones who do ELINT from IA side) and yes few SF personnel operating independant of NATO. (the latter is meant to ensure pressure at points of Indian interest ie terror outfits with India centric agenda)

The latest infiltration bid into J&K from *** and encounter in Kupwara sector serves to highlight the "non-state" aspect of a state agency involved deeply with running terror outfits. The only difference in past 20 years is that few years back, US would turn a blind eye, now since their soldiers are at receiving end, they are crying foul .....

As for ground reality, there is no way PA/GoP can control these outfits without destroying the very fabric of their society as then these elements will trun against them as seen in Swat where GoP and PA has literally surrendered the freedom of ordinary public to avoid a conflict that it has to fight one way or the other.

US aid will not stop, as US supply lines are too dependant on being in good terms with PA. The truth is that US has no option but to continue to tag along with GoP anyways it can. It CANNOT hope to fight and win in Pakistan without- a. Indian support and b. high casualty rates-something public back home wont be ready to accept
 
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also its very frequently been said on these forums as I have seen - the fact remains, unstable Pakistan is NOT in either Indian or US interests. The very fact that unstability allows people with serious problems with understanding their religion to take over from sane and progressive people who are in control today, prevents either of the aforementioned countries from tryin to destabilise pakistan. A strong PA is very much in indian and US interest for strong PA can effectively control the country and most important its nukes and prevent a rule of anarchy in Pakistan.
 
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We're really quite nice. The British ask politely if you'll consider being nice to Afghanistan this election season in your coordination meetings with the taliban. WE plan AID packages to you instead of strike packages upon you.

You've done it. You've actually stayed true to the course and got everybody to accept that it's perfectly fine to support and use proxy armies from your soil without fear of censure, withholding of aid, economic embargo, or even war.

We PAY you to make WAR on us. Can't get any sweeter than that.

There's no nuance to understand. You expect to tear into Afghanistan the moment we put our last boots on a plane. "Contacts"? For what? Another civil war?

We are truly, truly fcuking stupid.:crazy:

You truly rock with your words!!:smitten::enjoy:
 
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"It is highly incredulous to believe that India is supporting elements in NWFP and FATA for the ares adjoining the pakistan border ARE NOT controlled either by India or effectively even by NATO (who would never let an Indian operation be launched from there anyways) let alone by GoA."

Having written the above, you cannot in turn state the following-

"...and yes few SF personnel operating independant of NATO. (the latter is meant to ensure pressure at points of Indian interest ie terror outfits with India centric agenda)"

-without elaborating on these points of Indian interests and those minions of yours within Afghanistan, "...ie terror outfits with India centric agenda".

Doing so, of course would needlessly endanger both Afghans and NATO/ISAF personnel of becoming the unwitting victims of your duplicity. Further, while the eastern borders are not effectively controlled by NATO I assure a journey across that border from either direction will be the most dangerous endeavor you ever make in your life.

Guys in groups with weapons aren't alive long after we see them and we actively seek to put eyeballs on the enemy there daily. We don't make distinction either to armed men at 2kms distance on trails in these valleys and mountains.

We light them up.

You're not running ops of any kind across the eastern border. Too physically dangerous and waaaay too politically costly for the problematic return of such activities. The U.N., GoA, NATO/ISAF and America would collectively be furious. Your government knows that.

India has assiduously AVOIDED any mention of Indian ground forces. They can't make sufficient difference to offset the internal political penalties paid to your own muslims and communists-particularly in comparison to the tremendous yields your civil aid has seen in Afghani goodwill.

There's one embassy and four consulates by the invitation of the Afghan government. They do what embassies and consulates worldwide do in any danger zone...and intelligence collection to include SIGINT is common enough. Most embassy antennae farms on roofs tells all you need. Certainly ours do.

I'd also like some names of your favorite terror groups who'd be performing these dastardly acts. Can you do so that we might better have a clue. Names like Haqqani and Hekmatyar have been bandied for years and are well-known.

Who are your faves, please?:)

Your comments about NATO resupply remain salient and govern any rash reactions on my part about a cessation of aid. OTOH we are endeavoring to unleash ourselves from those bonds and new political actions are afoot that may include India and Iran.

We'll see what evolves over time on that front. Meanwhile, we'll be (and have been) jamming C17 flights into Kandahar at dizzy rates that will only climb this late summer to 825 sorties monthly. Read that twice. 28 C17 sorties daily into Kandahar by August.

We'll be around for awhile yet.
 
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Actually we're the one who are aiding you in killing us :D.

What have you lost? Zilch. Zilch compared to us. We have to aid you, while you don't take care of the Indian Embassies. It will be very stupid of Pakistan to not maintain contacts with the Taliban. Maintaining contacts and aiding them are two different things. This backdoor dealing has helped us in arresting scores of Indian spies infiltrating right out of under your noses into our territory and conducting terror upon our civilians.

It takes two to tango.

The end result we seek is total elimination of terrorism from our soil. The result India seeks is the total shift of terrorism from Afghanistan into Pakistan. You really are stupid, we're not.

u r bang on target, S-2 lost it, if there is ISI involvment, ask india to send their troops to fight insurgencies, probably they are better then u in stopping them, but ur so called intelligence and army could not. or may be ur intelligence is busy with indian consulates to spread voilence in my country.

the easiest thing to shift the blame is to blame others, this is wht u Amercians do. n dont tell me u provide us aid, u provide us aid to keep goverment afloat, and provide India with weapons, to kill us.

help us build our economy if u r sincere, not the liquid cash, which we all know will go no where except in the pockets of certain people. and u probably know better then us

this is what is true US support terriorist activites under india flag with cooperation with india to play safe game, so retaliation ends up on Indian soil from us, n u find another chance along with indians to blame ISI and radicals out of control, plus keep our army engage to kill our own people.

by the defination of terrirosm, which probably u dont know(S2), u r killing our people and blaming yet us at all times to keep us at defensive war game.

:pakistan:
 
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For reasons unbeknownst to me, a bunch of Pakistan related conferences suddenly seem to have popped up on the radar. Perhaps it has something to do with Obama's new plan?

Based on a quick glimpse at the article... it doesn't seem like Mazzetti and Schmitt have uncovered anything new; I mean, all of this information barring the nomenclature "s-wing" has already been voiced, confirmed and debated over by numerous Pakistani and Western experts in the academic, diplomatic and military disciplines. In fact, the details of exactly how select ISI agents handle their Taliban assets were discussed in excruciating detail by a prominent Pakistani academician last year.

Agnostic Muslim said:
When the groups needed to replenish their ranks, it would be operatives from the S Wing who often slipped into radical madrasas across Pakistan to drum up recruits, the officials said. {Okay, this is just silly - ISI officials do not have supernatural powers of persuasion that require only 'S-Wing' individuals to go recruit people - good analysis going bad here}
The way I understand it, since 2002, there has been a strict delineation between the ISI agents who handle the militant assets involved in the conflict raging in Afghanistan (Taliban being a major chunk) and the ones who don't to ensure deniability. As I said earlier, all of these details of the 'organization within an organization' model have been around for at least a year now, albeit the "s-wing" thing is new to me (not that I absorb all the aspects and details of these conversations). Also, supernatural powers have absolutely nothing to do with this, there is already a farm system in place (madrassahs being only one of the recruiting mechanisms) and its only a matter of regulating the supply, based on demand and available resources. The point however is that at least at the low and middle- field agent level, this is essentially a quarantine operation.

NYT said:
They said the contacts were less threatening than the American officials depicted and were part of a strategy to maintain influence in Afghanistan for the day when American forces would withdraw and leave what they fear could be a power vacuum to be filled by India, Pakistan’s archenemy...

Pakistani official explained that Islamabad needed to use groups like the Taliban as “proxy forces to preserve our interests.”
These are the parts I find most disheartening. As a pragmatist, I can accept the fact that adversarial nations will always be battling each other for geostrategic advantage, what I can't condone however is Pakistan's perseverance in this erroneous approach. The past 3 decades have clearly shown that proxy militancy simply does not work, in fact, the blowback is far more cataclysmic than the conflict itself.

Other developing nations have now realized the unacceptable risks involved in these ventures (mostly from their own past follies) and have hence taken to projecting influence through developmental tools like economics and soft power instead of proxy war. China and India in particular have been at the forefront of this shift and are employing this very tactic in Afghanistan as we speak. I would much rather see Pakstan jumping into the fray and competing against India on this front as opposed to the support of militancy. I have very little doubt that power projection through development will be far more constructive than the failed tactic of promoting regression or stagnation (and I don't mean this as some imaginary, feel good, hippy liberal slant). I have to cut it short for now, but I'll be more than happy to add to this later if anyone is interested.
 
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-without elaborating on these points of Indian interests and those minions of yours within Afghanistan, "...ie terror outfits with India centric agenda".

well, the SF component is part of HUMINT and I have mentioned in my different post about US-Indo co-operation at times in this field. There is something called Special Group (part of reorganised SFF. personnel drawn from IA) which is under direct control for all operational purposes of RAW and through them of the PM. There is no secret of Indian SF elements having been involved with ops in Afghanistan since Northern Alliance days. There are plenty of pashto and dari speaking personnel in India. there is a possibility of further induction of SF personnel and in case ever so, Ayani base will play a role for same and as such India is still keen on securing that.

Totally agree eastern border of afghanistan is unsafe. that is why said fomenting trouble in FATA and NWFP is not possbile for India from consulates based in Afghanistan. So question of Indian involvement for troubles in swat and other FATA region is not there.

As for groups, the equation is like this, if the pressure on groups in afghanistan is off, they all move to Kashmir. We had plenty of foreign origin fighters especially from Afghanistan, Sudan and few Egyptians, in Kashmir in 1995-97 period when there were not enough volunteers from valley as people were fed up and outsiders made up the bulk of fighters. The pressure is down over the past few years thanks to US intervention in Afghanistan as the groups found enemy No 1 in front of them so they have given a momentary respite to enemy No 2 and this can be corroborated by statistics of violent incidents which have declined over the years. Leave LeT, that is just one of the groups. The main concern is that decades of instability in afghanistan has trained people there for only one profession - war. On whom, they have to find a new one regularly.


India has assiduously AVOIDED any mention of Indian ground forces. They can't make sufficient difference to offset the internal political penalties paid to your own muslims and communists-particularly in comparison to the tremendous yields your civil aid has seen in Afghani goodwill.

induction of large scale nature has been ruled out for now. but SF is a different aspect and they are involved in both Sri Lanka (on SLA side this time) and Pakistan (kashmir portion) as also Afghanistan. also the point of communits - they dont count and everyone knows they are a nuisance. as for why we still have them, one needs entertainment and they are there for the laughs. Muslims in India in general have shifted away from being held hostage by religion more and more. They will not be able to oppose a policy shift in case of action being taken to fight terror. For it is very clearly understood that those who oppose the same, are standing for terror and that is not going to be accepted anymore. Leave aside the political posturing, only two allied fronts exist NDA and UPA and neither can afford to be seen soft on terror whatever the religion.

Your comments about NATO resupply remain salient and govern any rash reactions on my part about a cessation of aid. OTOH we are endeavoring to unleash ourselves from those bonds and new political actions are afoot that may include India and Iran.

yes I know. especially with working with russia to open up central asian route all the more. i think that shall free up US for further action into pakistan. the news on networks here tell of US telling that enemy no 1 is in pakistan and this coming on heals of US admitting ISI helping Taliban shows US has something afoot.


We'll see what evolves over time on that front. Meanwhile, we'll be (and have been) jamming C17 flights into Kandahar at dizzy rates that will only climb this late summer to 825 sorties monthly. Read that twice. 28 C17 sorties daily into Kandahar by August.

Air maintenance proves expensive in the long run and with intentions of more troops into the area, am sure US will work out a different route. Yes, US and NATO presence is needed in the long run to ensure a relative stable afghanistan.
 
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Dear Hellfire,

The question Asim has put is why does India need so many consulates in Afghanistan?

The level of work carried out by Indian companies in Afghanistan is not such that they need 8, 32 or 107 (what ever is the correct figure) consulates to look after it.

Also you start your post with a certain point of view and then yourself contradict it in the later part. Seems you are a bit confused.
 
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ISI accused of helping Taliban in Afghanistan
Friday, March 27, 2009
US envoy links Afghan success to Pakistan crackdown on extremists
News Desk

WASHINGTON: The Taliban’s widening campaign in southern Afghanistan is made possible in part by direct support from operatives in Pakistan’s military intelligence agency, despite Pakistani government promises to sever ties to militant groups fighting in Afghanistan, according to American government official, the New York Times reported on Thursday.

The support consists of money, military supplies and strategic planning guidance to Taliban commanders who are gearing up to confront the international force in Afghanistan that will soon include some 17,000 American reinforcements.

Support for the Taliban, as well as other militant groups, is coordinated by operatives inside the shadowy S Wing of the Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence, the officials said. There is even evidence that ISI operatives meet regularly with Taliban commanders to discuss whether to intensify or scale back violence before the Afghan elections.

Details of the ISI’s continuing ties to militant groups were described by a half-dozen American, Pakistani and other security officials during recent interviews in Washington and the Pakistani capital, Islamabad, the paper said. All requested anonymity because they were discussing classified and sensitive intelligence information.

The American officials said proof of the ties between the Taliban and Pakistani spies came from electronic surveillance and trusted informants. The Pakistani officials interviewed said that they had firsthand knowledge of the connections, though they denied that the ties were strengthening the insurgency.

American officials have complained for more than a year about the ISIís support to groups like the Taliban. But the new details reveal that the spy agency is aiding a broader array of militant networks with more diverse types of support than was previously known ó even months after Pakistani officials said that the days of the ISIís playing a ìdouble gameî had ended.

American officials have also said that midlevel ISI operatives occasionally cultivate relationships that are not approved by their bosses. In a sign of just how resigned Western officials are to the ties, the British government has sent several dispatches to Islamabad in recent months asking that the ISI use its strategy meetings with the Taliban to persuade its commanders to scale back violence in Afghanistan before the August presidential election there, according to one official.

But the inability, or unwillingness, of the embattled the civilian government, led by President Asif Ali Zardari, to break the ties that bind the ISI to the militants illustrates the complexities of a region of shifting alliances, NYT further reported.

Obama administration officials admit that they are struggling to understand these allegiances as they try to forge a strategy to quell violence in Afghanistan, which has intensified because of a resurgent Taliban. Fighting this insurgency is difficult enough, officials said, without having to worry about an allied spy serviceís supporting the enemy.

But the Pakistanis offered a more nuanced portrait, according to the paper. They said the contacts were less threatening than the American officials depicted and were part of a strategy to maintain influence in Afghanistan for the day when American forces would withdraw and leave what they fear could be a power vacuum to be filled by India, Pakistanís archenemy. A senior Pakistani military officer said, ìIn intelligence, you have to be in contact with your enemy or you are running blind.î

Dennis C Blair, the director of national intelligence, recently told senators that the Pakistanis ìdraw distinctionsî among different militant groups. ìThere are some they believe have to be hit and that we should cooperate on hitting, and there are others they think donít constitute as much of a threat to them and that they think are best left alone,î Blair said.

Top American officials speak bluntly about how the situation has changed little since last summer, when evidence showed that ISI operatives helped plan the bombing of the Indian Embassy in Kabul, an attack that killed 54 people.

ìThey have been very attached to many of these extremist organizations, and itís my belief that in the long run, they have got to completely cut ties with those in order to really move in the right direction,î Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said recently on ìThe Charlie Rose Showî on PBS.

The Taliban has been able to finance a military campaign inside Afghanistan largely through proceeds from the illegal drug trade and wealthy individuals from the Persian Gulf. But American officials said that when fighters needed fuel or ammunition to sustain their attacks against American troops, they would often turn to the ISI.

When the groups needed to replenish their ranks, it would be operatives from the S Wing who often slipped into radical madrasas across Pakistan to drum up recruits, the officials said. The ISI support for militants extends beyond those operating in the tribal areas of northwest Pakistan. American officials said the spy agency had also shared intelligence with the Lashkar-e-Taiba, the Pakistan-based militant group suspected in the deadly attacks in Mumbai, India, and provided protection for it.

Agencies adds: Afghanistan’s intelligence chief accused the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) of helping the Taliban militants in carrying out attacks on his country like the ones that killed 10 policemen on Thursday.

The allegations came ahead of the unveiling of US President Barack Obama’s new strategy to curb rising violence in Afghanistan. Afghan intelligence chief Amrullah Saleh told the Afghan parliament on Wednesday that the ISI provided support to the Taliban leadership council in Quetta.

He said the council sent militants over the border into Afghanistan to attack the Afghan and international forces. Saleh criticised Pakistan for denying that Mulla Omar was based in its territory and said they refused to crack down on the Taliban militants on their border, viewing them as “a kind of weapon” that could be used in both Afghanistan and India.

“The Pakistani government is making excuses by saying these areas are out of their control,” said Saleh. By focusing the blame on militants in Pakistan, Saleh reinforced the recent remarks by Obama, who warned that militants using the Pakistani territory to launch attacks should not be allowed free reign.

ISI accused of helping Taliban in Afghanistan
 
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also its very frequently been said on these forums as I have seen - the fact remains, unstable Pakistan is NOT in either Indian or US interests.

That's not a fact at all. An opinon perhaps. A weakened Pakistan is very much in the interests of India. It makes their job of defending the Eastern border a lot easier, and it allows them the old strategies of ruling through proxies.

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That's not a fact at all. An opinon perhaps. A weakened Pakistan is very much in the interests of India. It makes their job of defending the Eastern border a lot easier, and it allows them the old strategies of ruling through proxies.

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Roadrunner, do you seriously think that a weakened Pak under probable control of the uneducated, fundamentalist hooliguns will be of interest to India? Bro, you need rethink it over!! Those hooliguns would not need a elaborate defence budget to fight India mind you, they will obviously look for a much easier option to try bring India down, if you know what I mean.
 
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