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Is surveillance justifiable?

Tanja

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Snowden’s exposure of how the US government violates human liberties worldwide have raised many questions about the legitimacy of such actions. There seem to be little apologies ahead, but a battle for justification.

Dick Cheney, former Vice President of the United States, stated his opinion of how civil liberties and freedom is worth sacrificing for security.

Dick Cheney Full Interview w/ Chris Wallace Fox News Sunday: Edward Snowden a 'Traitor' - 6/16/13 - YouTube

When asked if intercepting and gathering phone call information is intruding on citizen’s private information, Cheney swiftly replied that he does not believe doing so is an intrusion. Cheney explained how information collected of telephone users are merely business records of the telephone companies.

Although he claims that the decision of listing private phone call information as business records is justified by the Supreme Court, it may be an appalling explanation for a person of his caliber; this is considering that he have been an important and decisive figure in the United States Government during the whole of the Bush Jr. administration.

During the interview, Cheney was also asked why such programs are kept secret from the American public, having concerns that the liberties and freedoms of the American public will be put at stake. Cheney replied that he have he “have problems with that concern”. He said revealing sources and methods make surveillance programs “significantly less affective” because it reveals not just to the American people, but the enemies.

Cheney’s reply have posed significant questions which many Americans may be interested in knowing. It begins with whether the treats to national security actually exist? Is it a paper tiger in which they are fighting? Although the attacks of 9/11 shall remain a strong reminder that America is under threat from certain foreigners, it happened more than a decade ago. Since then, the introduction of the Patriot Act and empowerment of government surveillance programs have battered the liberties and freedoms of Americans.

American tax payers are paying for a government which violates their privacy without consent. What is more frightening is that the threat of which the surveillance programs are supposed to repel, are by enlarge created by American foreign policies. Anti-American groups around the world are largely victims of American intervention overseas, especially military interventions. American tax payers find themselves paying for the military which causes anti-American movements around the globe, and later having to pay for the national surveillance which replaces their liberties with security.

Somehow, the US government seems to be on the road of getting away with it. Without much sign of apology and regret, the US government continues the verbal debate with their citizens and the rest of the world about how their surveillance was legitimate.

Source: FNOTW: Is surveillance justifiable?
post with the approval of the author
 
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Opinion: The Hypocrate States of America
by Teemu Uusitalo

The fugitive former NSA contractor Edward Snowden leaked secret documents revealing NSA's massive spying operations within and beyond the American borders. The Americans say laws should be followed and Snowden brought to justice, but is that righteous?

When Edward Snowden still was in Hong Kong, The Washington Post quoted an anonymous White House senior official saying that "If Hong Kong doesn't act soon, it will complicate our bilateral relations and raise questions about Hong Kong’s commitment to the rule of law."

Also the Deputy Secretary of State, William Burns expressed the government's disappointment with the way China and Hong Kong handled Snowden's case, allowing the whistle-blower to take the plain to Moscow even though the US had revoked his passport and issued an arrest warrant on him. Burns added that what China did was not consisted with the new type of relationship the both the US and China seek to build.

These accusations were not empty as Hong Kong has an extradition treaty with the US (signed one year before it was handed over from British to Chinese control in 1996), yet Hong Kong was unwilling to arrest Snowden in response to the extradition request by the US.

Obviously, this very strongly implies that Beijing was pulling the strings and walking over its own laws granting Hong Kong autonomic rights to follow its own legislation.

The US government isn't happy with the way Russia is handling the issue either. Snowden has been stuck in the transit are of Sheremetyevo airport in Moscow since he arrived there from Hong Kong on 23 June.

Russian President Vladimir Putin said that the US have scared off all the other countries so no one wants to take Snowden, and in that way the US actually trapped him on Russian soil.

Putin made a good point, yet the Russian authorities could still go on and arrest Snowden due to the international arrest warrant by the US. Russia has, however, refused to hand over Snowden to the US authorities, but also stated he can only stay in Russia if he stops leaking classified US information.

Anyway, it seems like in the American point of view the US had all the reasons to be disappointed with the responses from China and Russia.

However, at the same time in America...

The discussion being about following the rule of law, let's bring forth some more facts. Guantanamo Bay. Bradley Manning.

Despite the condemnation by the international community, the US have continued operating the internationally illegal detention and torture center of Guantanamo Bay. There they keep terror suspects and other "dangerous individuals", sometimes without any trial.

Bradley Manning, another army whistle-blower arrested in 2010, has been detained and possibly even tortured without a trial for three years now. He is still being charged of serious offences including aiding the enemy, which can bring Manning a life imprisonment if convicted.

No wonder Edward Snowden doesn't want to go back to the US.

Snowden's revelations also gave daylight to the fact that the US is actually the biggest official hacker, hacking into Chinese, Hong Kong, Iranian and other countries' computer systems. To this day the US had repeatedly accused China of hacking into American corporate and government computers.

Even the former US president Jimmy Carter has criticized the current government with harsh words over the unveiled NSA spying scandal, saying that the US laws legalizing the infringing of the privacy of its own citizens have gone way too far.

For the sake of the US, it needs to be said that it is clear that the American government isn't the only government in the world that breaches the law and reaches its surveillance over their own citizens and beyond the country borders, they just were the first to get caught doing it.

And telling others to follow the rules when you're not doing so yourself, that's what makes you a hypocritical. Just like the White House.


Source: FNOTW: Opinion: The Hypocrate States of America
 
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A mentor of mine once said. Freedom is not Free.

Asking is Surveillance justifiable is the same as asking is Tax justifiable.

You want to use government service, you have to pay tax;
If you want more from your government, you need more tax;
But are there anyone who want tax hike?

People asking more from the government, but when the government ask for tax and they say no. No tax hike and the government did not do the extra bit and the people say no again. There is this endless cycle.

Is surveillance justifiable? Ask yourselves this question.


One day you walk down an empty alley, do you feel safer if the alley have CCTV and people watching it? Or do you feel safer to have the street got nothing? And then ask yourselves. Is feeling safe important to you. Then you will have your answer
 
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A mentor of mine once said. Freedom is not Free.

Asking is Surveillance justifiable is the same as asking is Tax justifiable.

You want to use government service, you have to pay tax;
If you want more from your government, you need more tax;
But are there anyone who want tax hike?

People asking more from the government, but when the government ask for tax and they say no. No tax hike and the government did not do the extra bit and the people say no again. There is this endless cycle.

Is surveillance justifiable? Ask yourselves this question.


One day you walk down an empty alley, do you feel safer if the alley have CCTV and people watching it? Or do you feel safer to have the street got nothing? And then ask yourselves. Is feeling safe important to you. Then you will have your answer

Interesting :D but you ask the question to a wrong one :D in Finland where I live it is empty everywhere :) and I am cool with that :D I left my door and gate opened all day (except when I travel)
I am okay with surveillance btw but what the US government and so many other governments have done has crossed the line and it is unjustifiable.
 
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Interesting :D but you ask the question to a wrong one :D in Finland where I live it is empty everywhere :) and I am cool with that :D I left my door and gate opened all day (except when I travel)
I am okay with surveillance btw but what the US government and so many other governments have done has crossed the line and it is unjustifiable.

lol, try live in Detroit and walk down an empty alleyway and you will see why I ask this question.

I had been robbed twice in the same street within an hour....
 
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Interesting :D but you ask the question to a wrong one :D in Finland where I live it is empty everywhere :) and I am cool with that :D I left my door and gate opened all day (except when I travel)
I am okay with surveillance btw but what the US government and so many other governments have done has crossed the line and it is unjustifiable.

may be it should be done within limits based on threat perception, otherwise its unnecessary encrachment on privacy and unnecessary expences.
BTW London will not survive without cameras, I feel safe if I know there are cameras. agree with @jhungary
 
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lol, try live in Detroit and walk down an empty alleyway and you will see why I ask this question.

I had been robbed twice in the same street within an hour....


Yeah that is why I said you ask the wrong one ;) but yeah I can imagine about how dangerous it is because I was in many Asian countries especially China and Hongkong which are considered as never sleep cities.


Carter lashes on NSA


Source: FNOTW: Carter lashes on NSA

Former US President Jimmy Carter says that the "America has no functioning democracy at this moment".
Jimmy Carter described the Edward Snowden’s NSA leak case as “beneficial” for the United States. The words were said after a meeting Atlantic Bridge meeting in which the NSA surveillance program was discussed.

Jimmy Carter – a winner of the Nobel Peace Prize – is renowned for his efforts in creating and maintaining peace, both during and after his presidency.

He believes that the NSA scandal undermines democracy worldwide.

“The invasion of human rights and American privacy has gone too far” Carter said. He also mentioned that such actions would cause the world to have distrust towards America, hurting businesses like Google and Facebook.

Carter said although Snowden violated the law, he have contributed to the brighter future of the United States – resembling an age way of civil disobedience.

"I think that the secrecy that has been surrounding this invasion of privacy has been excessive, so I think that the bringing of it to the public notice has probably been, in the long term, beneficial."
 
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may be it should be done within limits based on threat perception, otherwise its unnecessary encrachment on privacy and unnecessary expences.
BTW London will not survive without cameras, I feel safe if I know there are cameras. agree with @jhungary

Actually it's not like the NSA collect your personal data willy-nilly, people could have done something to trigger the event for NSA monitoring. In US law enforcement term, basically it is allowed to have search conduct before warrant arrive, but you have to be with a probable clause and warrant must be obtain within 24 hours depending on Jurisdiction.

It's not like NSA have nothing better to do than to randomly monitor internet traffic for random citizen. Not many people know this part and most of them got scare away when they hear only "NSA Listen to Internet Traffic"

Yeah that is why I said you ask the wrong one ;) but yeah I can imagine about how dangerous it is because I was in many Asian countries especially China and Hongkong which are considered as never sleep cities.

Carter lashes on NSA


Source: FNOTW: Carter lashes on NSA

Former US President Jimmy Carter says that the "America has no functioning democracy at this moment".
Jimmy Carter described the Edward Snowden’s NSA leak case as “beneficial” for the United States. The words were said after a meeting Atlantic Bridge meeting in which the NSA surveillance program was discussed.

Jimmy Carter – a winner of the Nobel Peace Prize – is renowned for his efforts in creating and maintaining peace, both during and after his presidency.

He believes that the NSA scandal undermines democracy worldwide.

“The invasion of human rights and American privacy has gone too far” Carter said. He also mentioned that such actions would cause the world to have distrust towards America, hurting businesses like Google and Facebook.

Carter said although Snowden violated the law, he have contributed to the brighter future of the United States – resembling an age way of civil disobedience.

"I think that the secrecy that has been surrounding this invasion of privacy has been excessive, so I think that the bringing of it to the public notice has probably been, in the long term, beneficial."

People want their life to be save yet they don't want stuff like PRISM to carry on. People need to start realise Terrorist did not play by out "Democratic" rules. Again you need to pay a price to be safe and that why I said Freedom is not Free
 
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Actually it's not like the NSA collect your personal data willy-nilly, people could have done something to trigger the event for NSA monitoring. In US law enforcement term, basically it is allowed to have search conduct before warrant arrive, but you have to be with a probable clause and warrant must be obtain within 24 hours depending on Jurisdiction.

It's not like NSA have nothing better to do than to randomly monitor internet traffic for random citizen. Not many people know this part and most of them got scare away when they hear only "NSA Listen to Internet Traffic"



People want their life to be save yet they don't want stuff like PRISM to carry on. People need to start realise Terrorist did not play by out "Democratic" rules. Again you need to pay a price to be safe and that why I said Freedom is not Free
I understand why they do it, but we should be careful that non democratic institutions (like army, NSA, FBI, police) does not get upper hand in the society. There should be a system in place with civilian monitoring regularly (say multi party group in parliament) these activities and also judicial remedy for any transgression.
Dont know about USA, but the risk of abuse in country like India is obvious. You dont want to be arrested because you fell foul of the local police. No wonder people are worried.
 
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Snowden will stuck


Unlike many news agencies already announced, the fugitive US intelligence leaker Edward Snowden has not been given any Russian documents yet, says his lawyer Anatoly Kucherena.



Snowden_demonstration-fnotw-2276-original.jpg

Edward Snowden leaked classified US intelligence and is now on the run • Flickr

Russian President Vladimir Putin did turn down requests by Americans to hand over Snowden, yet Russia has still not given any kind of documents to him so that he could even leave the international transit zone at Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport.

Snowden has now been at the Muscovite airport for a month. President Putin has stated that Snowden can stay, as long as he doesn't leak any more US intelligence.

The false-information saying that Snowden was already given the needed documents to leave the airport transit area were based on information coming from the airport officials. It's unclear whether there had been some last-minute political intervention or other kind of a problem cancelling the process.

The White House contacted the Russians for clarification about Snowden's status after the false-alarm, to which the Russian Minister of Foreign Affairs Sergey Lavrov replied denying the rumours.

Source: FNOTW: Snowden still stuck
 
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The tree of revolution has to be fed by the blood of martyrs from time to time , and that's definitely what America is about " - Thomas jefferson
 
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Only if USA and its allies start to do it first


and others get to know about it or someone blows the Whistle on them


if someone else does it first and is caught then it is SS,soviet union or North korean style suppression the human rights yada yada yada
 
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Obama cancels Moscow visit

US President Barack Obama was supposed to meet with President Vladimir Putin in Moscow ahead of the G-20 summit in St. Petersburg, but the White House announced he will travel to Stockholm on 4 September instead.

The Kremlin expressed its disappointment with the decision by the White House to cancel the meeting with the two presidents. Putin's foreign affairs adviser Yuri Ushakov said that it shows the US could not develop ties on an equal basis.

I dont know what Obama is now doing, any guess?
 
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