Is Pakistan's Army As Islamist as We Think?

[muse]

The time to be concerned is when the Army DOES NOT have to hide from its populace.

I take your point and when that time comes it will be deserved - but just watch the army will screw that up as well, in the sense that they will play it as they always have, provide a measure of stability, lose credibility and back to the barracks - whereas perhaps it is now time to think of a restructuring of not just more effective delivery of governance and representation but an almost revolutionary reorganization of the state and therefore society.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I take your point and when that time comes it will be deserved - but just watch the army will screw that up as well, in the sense that they will play it as they always have, provide a measure of stability, lose credibility and back to the barracks - whereas perhaps it is now time to think of a restructuring of not just more effective delivery of governance and representation but an almost revolutionary reorganization of the state and therefore society.

It is, it is, a revolutionary reorganisation of the state and consequently of society is most desirable. All over south Asia, though here one will restrict oneself to addressing problems relating to Pakistan alone.

However, the numbers are against you. The number of liberals is far, far outnumbered by moderate and tending-to-conservative (not right-wing radical, fanatic, extremist or terrorist) God-fearing tax-paying but unprepared for major social adventure kind of people. The only hope is to seize the increasing disenchantment of the organised political parties towards the security state, and to seek small but permanent gains. As these small gains increase in number, they will start interacting with each other, and the combinations are what will lead to social changes.

Be warned that an open left-wing radical attack on the rest of society may lead to abject failure; success may lead to revolution. We can do without revolution. Or the opposite consequences.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

As fundamental as the NATO christian army , in god we trust , ha ...

 

[Windjammer]

Now isn't this an irony, a Pakistani being critical of his armed forces and an Indian trying his best to maintain a balancing act.

Focused on a pointing finger, one tends to become oblivious of the spectrum in the distant Galaxy.

So much for hiding from the populace, for from it the guilty are somewhat proving to be the saving grace...... again. !!

http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-forces/94-pakistan-army-news-discussions-7.html

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

There is no fundamentalism there is only 1 mentalism and that is defend Pakistan and maintain the purpose why Pakistan was formed ....

As for rest of world we do not care its not our business but when you decide to step foot in Pakistan ... all the fundamentalism will be thrown out of window and you will be turned into a tin can that is squashed under military boots

 

[muse]

You know it just may be that we will have to "redefine" Liberal in Pakistan, back to it's original English sense - and the reorganization I spoke of was more in line with the kind of Mexican PRI - with a CCP ethic and organization-- Scared yet?


Anyway, the peice below purports to be a balanced view, readers can decide, as you read it, think about how fair it is to comparing Pakistan with the lies of iraq and Somalia and such, is that what we started out want to be? :

The army: a balanced look
Ghalib Hafiz
Friday, September 16, 2011




The army is the single most powerful institution in Pakistan. Gen Kiyani is ranked the 29th most powerful person in the world by Forbes, ahead of any politician or civilian in the country. Often, with great power follows great hatred. Towards the tail end of Musharraf’s rule, the army was, beyond doubt, the single most despised institution in the country. Some still harbour strong resentment against it.

But some hold this institution in the highest esteem. This love and respect hit one of its annual peaks this Sept 6. Back in the days of PTV’s monopoly, this day was celebrated with much fanfare. Today’s private airwaves are no longer state propaganda machines, but they still pay rich tributes to the army.

But today’s army is operating in changing times. The security considerations vis-a-vis India have become rather cliched and irrelevant. India is now too big to pose an existential threat, with more important priorities of its own, such as lifting millions of its citizens out of poverty. Also, with nuclear weapons now part of the equation, the old hopes or fears of territorial changes need to change.

The army is a highly complex beast. On the one hand, it has been a stabilising and binding force for the nation; on the other, it is accused of the same integrity issues as the other power-players. It is also accused of failing to build institutions, meddling in politics or, worse, seeding destructive forces, such as terrorism. On the one hand, it is a huge resource drain. On the other hand, its positive institutional characteristics have yielded dividends for the nation.

Fundamentally, the army is the quintessential national middle-class institution of the country. I like to contrast the Pakistani army with the Afghan, Iraqi or Somali national armies. Each of these countries once had large powerful armies. When the armies fell apart, so did the states themselves. Fortunately or unfortunately, the Pakistani army is the glue which holds this nation together.

It holds years of tradition, with strong well-established structures and processes, and, most important of all, strong values anchored in a shared sense of purpose, larger than the institution itself. It has played a strong role in nation-building, albeit until now largely around the threat on the eastern border. It has taken its role of defence against this threat seriously and professionally. It has reformed itself over time, becoming inclusive and egalitarian, or “values-driven.”

This is in sharp contrast to the other set of power-players in the country, namely the democratic politicians. Still evolving and growing, up until now they have largely been feudal or tribal lords without integrity. The army has stepped in multiple times to keep them in check.

I would strongly argue that the army has had a stabilising, even positive, impact, at least in the economic arena. In fact, data shows that economic performance has been strong under every military government, with average GDP growth being 44 percent higher than it has been under civilian governments. This cannot be attributed to short-term economic policies which stimulate temporary, even reversible, growth, or, worse, to number fudging. Political governments have consistently posted poorer performance under the same standards and rules.

But beyond economics, the army is accused of perpetuating many of the same ills as the political power elite. Not only have they never used their windows in power as opportunities to carry out sweeping reforms, such as making the big push for universal high-quality education, they have also been accused of greed and corruption. Whenever a civilian government is toppled, hundreds of senior bureaucrats are replaced by colonels, brigadiers or generals. This clearly does not help in sustainable institutional development, and it is impossible to hold them to account for gross corruption or misconduct, let alone their actual performance.

The army has also made several short-sighted tactical power-plays in the political space, often seeding or deepening ethnic political rifts, or promoting intolerance and the use of violence. So much concentrated power can be such a destabilising or destructive force. Whether or not the intentions are bad, long-term outcomes can be disastrous.

The army consumes a fifth of the national budget. Education is allocated a fraction of what is allocated to the army. Healthcare gets even less. When military expenses overshoot, as they often do, education and healthcare suffer further.

How is this money used? Walk into a military complex or a garrison town in Pakistan, and you’ll find the lower half of trees painted white, topped off with a red stripe. Six hundred thousand men sitting around need to be provided with paint brushes to keep them occupied and sane. The taxpayer funds this.

On the other hand though, these garrison towns are impressive. Ninety percent of the top-end residential developments in Pakistan are army-built and -managed. Most developments under civilian public institutions are falling apart, with Islamabad being the only notable exception. Parts of Karachi have been turned into high-density eyesores, in violation of building codes and safety standards. Let’s not mention the risk of an earthquake in this seismic zone.

Many of the army welfare organisations are adding value to the Pakistani economy. These are dynamic enterprises in sectors such as banking, cement manufacturing and cereal processing. It imparts discipline and general management skills which are the foundation for any good enterprise. Some of them may not be sustainable, dipping into the defence budget, or sustained with indirect subsidies. But most of them are paying dividends out to the nation.

The army is a powerful but polarising institution. It is time to reshape it based on consistent and balanced perspectives. But it deserves respect and support for being a functional and disciplined institution binding the country together. It has made mistakes in the past. Let’s reduce the burden it places on our national resources, but at the same time provide it with support as it refocuses from the external threat on the eastern border to the threat within. It still has a critical role to play in building this nation.

The writer is a management consultant based in Nairobi. Email: ghalibhaf@gmail.com

 

[very]

There is no threat to the Army neither inside nor outside as long as they are faithful to Pakistan , Islam and the Muslim Ummah. If they strictly follows the rules of justice with Muslims and non-Muslims, truly follows the rules of Allah Ta-alah/Holy Quran and Sunnah of Rasool-Allah PBUH.

 

[muse]

There is no threat to the Army neither inside nor outside as long as they are faithful to Pakistan , Islam and the Muslim Ummah. If they strictly follows the rules of justice with Muslims and non-Muslims, truly follows the rules of Allah Ta-alah/Holy Quran and Sunnah of Rasool-Allah PBUH.

Comedy relief

 

[Joe Shearer]

Now isn't this an irony, a Pakistani being critical of his armed forces and an Indian trying his best to maintain a balancing act.

Focused on a pointing finger, one tends to become oblivious of the spectrum in the distant Galaxy.

So much for hiding from the populace, for from it the guilty are somewhat proving to be the saving grace...... again. !!

http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-forces/94-pakistan-army-news-discussions-7.html

I am more than a little baffled by your comment.

Would you prefer an Indian criticism of the Pakistan Army? An Afghan criticism? Perhaps Iranian? Surely it is better for Pakistan to evaluate its capabilities and outlook critically and bring in changes before changes are forced upon it?

Nothing can damage your own capabilities more than to wrap your armed forces in a wrapping of stardust and ignore all the corrections that are necessary. That is false patriotism, self-deception of the highest order.

What could you be thinking about?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Now isn't this an irony, a Pakistani being critical of his armed forces and an Indian trying his best to maintain a balancing act.

Focused on a pointing finger, one tends to become oblivious of the spectrum in the distant Galaxy.

So much for hiding from the populace, for from it the guilty are somewhat proving to be the saving grace...... again. !!

http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-forces/94-pakistan-army-news-discussions-7.html

I am more than a little baffled by your comment.

Would you prefer an Indian criticism of the Pakistan Army? An Afghan criticism? Perhaps Iranian? Surely it is better for Pakistan to evaluate its capabilities and outlook critically and bring in changes before changes are forced upon it?

Nothing can damage your own capabilities more than to wrap your armed forces in a wrapping of stardust and ignore all the corrections that are necessary. That is false patriotism, self-deception of the highest order.

What could you be thinking about?

 

[Manas]

@Joe Shearer

clearly as usual you are meandering east west south north without exacting making your point !!

I mean whats your point ...that the army of Islamic republic of Pakistan isn't pure Islamist ,but vanilla Islamist kind.

Lets hear president Ayub khan what he thinks :

 

[Manas]

duplicate .....

 

[Windjammer]

I am more than a little baffled by your comment.

Would you prefer an Indian criticism of the Pakistan Army? An Afghan criticism? Perhaps Iranian? Surely it is better for Pakistan to evaluate its capabilities and outlook critically and bring in changes before changes are forced upon it?

Nothing can damage your own capabilities more than to wrap your armed forces in a wrapping of stardust and ignore all the corrections that are necessary. That is false patriotism, self-deception of the highest order.

What could you be thinking about?

The highlighted wouldn't be anything new thus expected, as for the rest, the saying goes.... call your mother (read country) ugly and who is to disagree with you. Healthy debate/criticism can be both understanding and beneficial..... it shouldn't become an excuse for just finger pointing.
As I said elsewhere, ten years on, the 9/11 is squarely blamed on OBL & Co., Americans didn't point fingers at CIA, the British didn't question their intelligence for the 7/7, nor did the Indians were critical of their Maritime Security for Mumbai blasts.
It's the Pakistani armed forces facing and bearing the brunt of WOT. The clay footed politicians are as good as an ash tray on a motor bike.

 

[blain2]

Sir,if it is not How Would You explain This:
1)Abbottabad-Osama found within a few Kilometers from PA training center.Though US never accused Pakistan directly but it always hinted at it.
2)PNS Mehran-It is widely believed that elements within Pakistan Navy were involved in passing information to Al-Qaeda.
A SSG(N) commando was arrested later.Shahzad was killed for trying to expose the links.
3)US commanders have declared openly that ISI nurtures & supports the Haqqani network.
4)Ilyas Kashmiri-An ex SSG soldier is/was(?) a senior Al-Qaeda leader.

And There are many many more.

1) Being found a few kilometers from the PMA means nothing. The PMA trains future officers and is in a world all its own. Who lives in and around the military academy in the suburbs of Abbotabad is not something that those in the academy lose sleep over. This is also no different than the case in other areas surrounding cantonments. By this I am not denying that some who hosted OBL had connections, but linking him to the Army is a stretch.

2) A court-martialed sailor was responsible. He obviously had gripes and extremist leanings.

3) US side says a lot of things. Not that some are not true, but these linkages etc. have been talked about in the past as well and some of the gems included the supposed contacts between AQ and Saddam Hussain. The trick is that you throw everything and hope some of it sticks. Pakistan's non-inclination to go after the Haqqani group is that its too much to take on. That its only the Haqqani group carrying out attacks in Afghanistan is a stretch as well given that most of the Taliban captured in Afghanistan are locals and hail from the areas where the action is taking place. Pakistan should do what she can to stop the flow of people into Afghanistan, however its not something that can be done overnight without expanding the insurgency and increasing its intensity.

4) This Ilyas Kashmiri chap had nothing to do with the Army, let alone the SSG. This is another hearsay that has been propagated to make the Army look bad. Most retiring from service have had enough action and tend to go back to their farms, lands and rural areas. The ones being indoctrinated are usually the ones who have no military service and are inspired to take it up for causes that they may deem important to themselves.

If a lot of ex-Pakistani servicemen were joining the extremists, there would be significant proof of this found either during the captures or amongst the remains of the dead in Afghanistan and in Pakistan. But this is seldom the case.

 

[blain2]

@Joe Shearer

clearly as usual you are meandering east west south north without exacting making your point !!

I mean whats your point ...that the army of Islamic republic of Pakistan isn't pure Islamist ,but vanilla Islamist kind.

Lets hear president Ayub khan what he thinks :

Do you think that the Egyptian, Syrian, Jordanian, Saudi, Iraqi, Irani and many other armies in predominantly Muslims countries are any different when it comes to leveraging Islamic doctrine to motivate their troops?