Is Pakistani principally a race or ideology?

[Indus Pakistan]

Neither. It is just a tract of political geography. Nothing more. Nothing less. Like USA, India, UK, Canada, Australia, Saudia Arabia, UAE, Qatar, New Zealand, Brazil, Afghanistan, the list goes on etc etc.

By political geography I mean a piece of earth with borders drawn on it, defended and secured by soldiers within which the writ of the Pakistani state applies. Specifically it is a federation or union of four entities that pre-existed Pakistan. Namely Punjab, Khyber Pakhtunkwa, Sindh, Balochistan. As we know all have their own capitals and governments. These are the 'bricks' that made Pakistan in 1947 and the constitution reflects that. In simple terms Pakistan is just a collective name for these provinces. This is underlined by the fact that the originator of the name 'PAKSTAN' derived it from the acronym of the five provinces which he envisaged to federate together.

It certainly is not a ideology as some are claiming. To begin with what is that exactly? Even if it can be defined the question arises would a Aztec Amerindian in Bolivia or a Zulu in South Africa or a Eskimo in Canada or a Yakutsk in Russia become "Pakistani's" if this said ideology was adopted by them? That notion is absurd. It's can't be Muslim either as we have 1.6 billion Muslims on earth spread in over 50 nation states of which Pakistan is only one.

In conclusion Pakistan is a federation of provinces located on the Indus region with defined borders. It is no more a race or ideology then USA, Saudia Arabia or Canada etc. I hear you shout "Pakistan Matlab". Well those were the historical impulses that helped to create it. But every country has impulse behind it's creation. Non was made in heaven or was product of natural forces like mountains or seas. All are man made.

What those impulses were often do not matter over time. When your 70 years old you don't go around asking "why I exist". The answer might be mundane as 71 years ago your dad and mum got married and one night your dad had a twinkle in his eye. Non of that matters. What matters is 70 years later you exist. It could be argued that USA came about because of taxes over tea. Yes, America, that great superpower has a 'matlab' and that is cup of tea or more specifically taxes on tea by British.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Tea_Party


What is Saudia Arabia's ideology or 'matlab'? Well we don't have to look far. It's in the name 'Saud'. A warlord with big ambitions who carved out a kingdom for himself and then even named it after himself "Saudia". Ultimate example of egotism.


What is Australia's ideology? Yes. Convicts. Murderers, rapists, petty criminals, misfits bore a nation. Add a few sheep as well to the effort in laying down the 'Ozzies" as a nation.

@OsmanAli98

 

[Nilgiri]

A thread on Pakistani identity meant for Pakistanis to discuss the foundations of their state and its future has no place for this kind of discussion.

Please begin your own thread and discuss it there.

Then don't bring up Indians and "Bengalis" in the first place.

 

[Yankee-stani]

Neither. It is just a tract of political geography. Nothing more. Nothing less. Like USA, India, UK, Canada, Australia, Saudia Arabia, UAE, Qatar, New Zealand, Brazil, Afghanistan, the list goes on etc etc.

By political geography I mean a piece of earth with borders drawn on it, defended and secured by soldiers within which the writ of the Pakistani state applies. Specifically it is a federation or union of four entities that pre-existed Pakistan. Namely Punjab, Khyber Pakhtunkwa, Sindh, Balochistan. As we know all have their own capitals and governments. These are the 'bricks' that made Pakistan in 1947 and the constitution reflects that. In simple terms Pakistan is just a collective name for these provinces. This is underlined by the fact that the originator of the name 'PAKSTAN' derived it from the acronym of the five provinces which he envisaged to federate together.

It certainly is not a ideology as some are claiming. To begin with what is that exactly? Even if it can be defined the question arises would a Aztec Amerindian in Bolivia or a Zulu in South Africa or a Eskimo in Canada or a Yakutsk in Russia become "Pakistani's" if this said ideology was adopted by them? That notion is absurd. It's can't be Muslim either as we have 1.6 billion Muslims on earth spread in over 50 nation states of which Pakistan is only one.

In conclusion Pakistan is a federation of provinces located on the Indus region with defined borders. It is no more a race or ideology then USA, Saudia Arabia or Canada etc. I hear you shout "Pakistan Matlab". Well those were the historical impulses that helped to create it. But every country has impulse behind it's creation. Non was made in heaven or was product of natural forces like mountains or seas. All are man made.

What those impulses were often do not matter over time. When your 70 years old you don't go around asking "why I exist". The answer might be mundane as 71 years ago your dad and mum got married and one night your dad had a twinkle in his eye. Non of that matters. What matters is 70 years later you exist. It could be argued that USA came about because of taxes over tea. Yes, America, that great superpower has a 'matlab' and that is cup of tea or more specifically taxes on tea by British.

View attachment 568508

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Tea_Party


What is Saudia Arabia's ideology or 'matlab'? Well we don't have to look far. It's in the name 'Saud'. A warlord with big ambitions who carved out a kingdom for himself and then even named it after himself "Saudia". Ultimate example of egotism.


What is Australia's ideology? Yes. Convicts. Murderers, rapists, petty criminals, misfits bore a nation. Add a few sheep as well to the effort in laying down the 'Ozzies" as a nation.

@OsmanAli98

You make good points if you look at borders of every land its man made but demographics are destiny in any society what makes Turkey today its nation of Turks,or China heck they call it Zhonghua which means center country anyways the problem with Pakistan is simple we the lands and civilization's based here were not empire like them they were just de centralised states or tribute states of what ever empire ruled until the British came introduced infrastructure,civil service etc kinda first to unite South Asia as one political unit I gave example of Israel of how they grant citizenship to Jews from all around the world if we were a Muslim Ummah state as posters claim should we give citizenships to Arabs,Persians,Turks,Bosnians,Indonesians,Central Asians,Bengalis,Afghans,Indonesians,Tatars or etc yeah we dont we are Muslim Majority nation but unique to our history and the 5 main groups to our federation heck we complain about Afghans in our own country I bet you if we had a million Somalis come to our country you would see a riot lets face it we are nation state time to act like one

 

[Indus Pakistan]

if we were a Muslim Ummah state as posters claim should we give citizrnships to Arabs,Persians,Turks,Bosnians,Indonesians,Central Asians,Bengalis,Afghans,Indonesians,Tatars or etc

Bingo. If Pakistan was 'Islamic republic' or even could make half a claim to "Pakistan ka matlab kia, La Illaha Illallah" it would allow any Muslim from the ummah to land in Pakistan and have right to Pakistani citizenship. However that notion is turned on it's head. This is as clear as can be in that a Christian, Sikh living in Daska, Pakistan have pakistani citizenship but a Muslim from Afghanistan or Muslim from Rohingya or Muslim from Syria would not be given citizenship. Meaning we have billion Muslims who have no right to Pakistani citizenship but we have millions of Christians, Sikhs, Parsi, Hindu who are Pakistani citizens.

problem with Pakistan is simple we the lands and civilization's based here were not empire

This does NOT make Pakistan unique. 90% of countries are like us. What empires did Indonesia, UAE, Libya, Malaysia, Singapore, USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada support?

the problem

The problem has been we made a problem. By asking the 'matlab' we ended up where we are today. We got 101 matlabs all vying and fighting each other. Did countries like Singapore, Indonesia, Australia, USA go after 'matlabs'?

 

[Yankee-stani]

This does NOT make Pakistan unique. 90% of countries are like us. What empires did Indonesia, UAE, Libya, Malaysia, Singapore, USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada support?[/QUOTE]

Of course its not a unique case I never implied that the reason why I pointed Turkey and China is to make Pakistanis here understand the difference we have with them because I often see PDF members a..s k..is Erdogan so what the problem is after Ayub Khan we failed to form.a cohesive identity add in our wonderful Arab bros who bought in wahhabism with Petro dollars you get a toxic cocktail IK may not live to see a prosperous Self Confident Pakistan at least lead a new crop of leaders who can

 

[Indus Pakistan]

The problem has been we made a problem. By asking the 'matlab' we ended up where we are today. We got 101 matlabs all vying and fighting each other. Did countries like Singapore, Indonesia, Australia, USA go after 'matlabs'?

Well, they did not go for 'matlabs' but let 'matlabs' just drop into their laps. USA went for 'freedom, Australia 'Kangaroo', New Zealand 'Kwi' and Singapore, well I don't know. But funny thing is Singapore is one of the most succesful countries in Asia made up of 99% migrants from China, India etc.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

If Pakistan was 'Islamic republic' or even could make half a claim to "Pakistan ka matlab kia, La Illaha Illallah" it would allow any Muslim from the ummah to land in Pakistan and have right to Pakistani citizenship.

Not necessarily. This does not have to be the case.

We are an ideological nation-state founded on the ideal that we are descendants of great Islamic empires and distinct from our Eastern neighbor, which does not share our history or civilization.

We are still a closed group based on a geographical region, however our state (Pakistan) is an Islamic republic and has loftier goals than just blood and land.

It is our mission to safeguard and protect the Muslim (and non-Muslim) citizens of our state from the massacred and prevent the genocide being exacted upon Muslim minorities to our East.

The Islamic world had been shrinking when Pakistan was made and was in danger, Pakistan assured the survival of those within our borders and protected our Eastern flank.

If Pakistan expands, it cannot expand Eastward yet (except in IOK,) but only Westward and Northward towards Wakhan, Iran and Afghanistan.

 

[KediKesenFare3]

Pakistaniat is an idea. And unlike many human ideas, the thought of Pakistaniat evoveld into an ideology that has manifested itself in our reality as the state of Pakistan. Ideas becoming reality is actually a very unique process. But like every ideology Pakistan needs to be further developed and updated from time to time to prevent it from collapsing and failing like communism. In case of Pakistan, this means that the fundamental change is inevitable.

I believe that this change is actually the process of becoming a nation state with one indistinguishable race (= nation).

Pakistan is a notion - one of the greatest of its kind - that needs to become a conviction.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Pakistaniat is an idea. And unlike many human ideas, the thought of Pakistaniat evoveld into an ideology that has manifested itself in our reality as the state of Pakistan. Ideas becoming reality is actually a very unique process. But like every ideology Pakistan needs to be further developed and updated from time to time to prevent it from collapsing and failing like communism. In case of Pakistan, this means that the fundamental change is inevitable.

I believe that this change is actually the process of becoming a nation state with one indistinguishable race (= nation).

Pakistan is a notion - one of the greatest of its kind - that needs to become a conviction.

We also have room and open hearts to incorporate more peoples within our framework.

Wakhis of Wakhan, who are relatives of our people of the Northern Areas and GB, makes absolute sense and I believe this will happen very soon.

We have Hazaras in Quetta, so what would stop the Hazaras of Afghanistan?

After some reform and maybe several years of Taliban rule, Tajiks and Parsiwans may be ready to join the federation.

Pukhtoons of Afghanistan also is just a matter of time.

As far as Baloch, we have more in Iran and Oman.

There is a lot of room for expansion and development of our national concept.

Durrani Empire, 1772

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Pakistaniat is an idea. And unlike many human ideas, the thought of Pakistaniat evoveld into an ideology that has manifested itself in our reality as the state of Pakistan. Ideas becoming reality is actually a very unique process. But like every ideology Pakistan needs to be further developed and updated from time to time to prevent it from collapsing and failing like communism. In case of Pakistan, this means that the fundamental change is inevitable.

I believe that this change is actually the process of becoming a nation state with one indistinguishable race (= nation).

Pakistan is a notion - one of the greatest of its kind - that needs to become a conviction.

You do know that exactly 13 months before birth of Pakistan, Jinnah actually agreed to the Cabinet Mission Plan in July 1946. So much for the grand idea or ideology. This tells us that as long as Muslims had constitutional parity within a united India everything was cool. Whither Pakistan?

@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan Sorry but your post has so many contradictions and holes that I will leave it for another time to address.

 

[Yankee-stani]

Well, they did not go for 'matlabs' but let 'matlabs' just drop into their laps. USA went for 'freedom, Australia 'Kangaroo', New Zealand 'Kwi' and Singapore, well I don't know. But funny thing is Singapore is one of the most succesful countries in Asia made up of 99% migrants from China, India etc.

Ditto but I am confident as time goes on more self confidence in our identity will come its inevitable

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan Sorry but your post has so many contradictions and holes that I will leave it for another time to address.

We are coming from two different frames of thought.

Hope you are doing well. I was waiting to see your response on this thread.

Take care.

 

[Yankee-stani]

You do know that exactly 13 months before birth of Pakistan, Jinnah actually agreed to the Cabinet Mission Plan in July 1946. So much for the grand idea or ideology. This tells us that as long as Muslims had constitutional parity within a united India everything was cool. Whither Pakistan?

@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan Sorry but your post has so many contradictions and holes that I will leave it for another time to address.

I like of both you I agree with some of your guys points here and there but I really think Pakistanis need to look inward for once

We are coming from two different frames of thought.

Hope you are doing well. I was waiting to see your response on this thread.

Take care.

I know many Pakistanis want a expandsionist policy and to be more influential but no one takes us seriously they only pity us we claim we want to help the Iranians and Saudis end this ridiculous sectarian proxy war they rebuff us or laugh at us we dont have anything to back up besides cheap labor for Gulf States and Armed Forces time to fix ourselves learn more about ourselves and focus on building a prosperous Pakistan

 

[Crusher]

Different vocabulary different pronounciation different folk dances customs religion there are a lot of differences
like bhangra is common only in Indian Punjab and some north Eastern parts of Pakistani Punjab but we have a different folk dance called dharees similar to jhummar different singing style poetry etc

The most common indigenous dance in Gujranwala is called "Ludi", since Gujranwala is mostly a religiously conservative city we generally frown up singing and dancing but the only time I see people doing some dance, it is usually during weddings and it is always some kind of Luddi dance in circle with some claps, but people in Gujranwala are bad in dance because of lack of practice. I don't know what is the situation with Sialkot. "Bhangra" in Gujranwala is synonymous with the english word "folk dance", even Luddi can also be called Bhangra. We definitely don't have that indian Sikh style "Bhangra" that we see in indian Movies, that is alien to us. Our Bhangra is our local Luddi dance or some other random dhamal type dance.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

I like of both you I agree with some of your guys points here and there but I really think Pakistanis need to look inward for once

Whether we like it our not, geopolitics and speed of change in the world will force Pakistan to mature quickly and seize its right to be a global power.

It is only a matter of time before the US withdrawal from Afghanistan and the implosion of India, Pakistan should prepare to reap maximum benefits from both.

We have to prepare our people to take the reigns of leadership in our region, and the world.

The most common indigenous dance in Gujranwala is called "Ludi", since Gujranwala is mostly a religiously conservative city we generally frown up singing and dancing but the only time I see people doing some dance, it is usually during weddings and it is always some kind of Luddi dance in circle with some claps, but people in Gujranwala are bad in dance because of lack of practice. I don't know what is the situation with Sialkot. "Bhangra" in Gujranwala is synonymous with the english word "folk dance", even Luddi can also be called Bhangra. We definitely don't have that Sikh style "Bhangra" that we see in indian Movies, that is alien for us. Our Bhangra is our local Luddi dance or some other random dhamal type dance.

Same for Faisalabad and Lahore (and the rest of Central Punjab.)

Luddi is the traditional Punjabi dance. Bhangra here is also different from Sikhs.

We are much more mild and traditional in our dances.