Is Pakistani principally a race or ideology?

[SIPRA]

A good thread, but unfortunately being used by most of the posters, for mere trolling.

 

[Hamza913]

lol cope hard.

There is no "coping", this is historical fact.

i know you punjabi converts

You're a literal n!gger whose lineage only became Hindu because my ancestors conquered yours.

we know who our fathers are

Clearly you don't, since you guys still deny the Aryan invasion.

 

[Vortex]

Agreed but geography matters when it's related to new found identity.

I should have added that the geography do not become part of an identity of a country immediately after its birth.

It will become after centuries, when the country will have an history.

In fact I think it depends of the circumstances of the newly born country.

In the USA case, some white peoples came and slowly, by trick or crooks, by force, they stolen the land of others people who were the natives. Then all the land grabbed become part of their identity.

In the contexte of separation like in Pakistan case, people were already living there for some of them and others came from others eastern territories of what became India of today.

But there is a problem, everyone is very selective in the selection of the period he will take for his analysis.

And then you will say that we were indians before Pakistan was born. We will say we don’t had any links with indians. We were different etc.

But everyone forgot that Americans (US) have links with Europeans countries. But still if France, England and co identify themselves with their geography, I know for sure that they forgot that — despite having taught us at school in France — how their country was born. Their history started hundreds years before Christ. Even France wasn’t born yet. How could you took something that wasn’t you as part of your identity? Quite complicated.

But it took thousands of years in the case of France to make the territory part of the French’s identity.

So the question is from which date will you/we start to talk about the territory as part of your/our identity ?

So yes, it will take us thousands years to make our territory a part of identity because our history is interlinked with what was known as India (old India before independence).

Nobody talks or knows what we were before the birth of old India ? Nobody knows from were we are coming ? I mean from where before India was formed !

So yes and no.

Currently geography do not make identity in our case, but centuries later, history will make our geography part of our identity.

Currently some of us are defining themselves as Punjabi, Sindhi, Balochi, Kasmiri etc. But when situation arise, we all become Pakistanis.

I could be wrong, as I’m not very knowledgeable person on history, philosophy, sociology etc.

 

[Zulfiqar]

Pakistan is an ideology.

I am a pukhtun. I have friends that are ethnic kashmiris,Hunza wals, punjabis, urdu speakers as well as pukhtuns.

We have hardly anything in common apart from religious beliefs and the fact that we believe in idea of Pakistan due to it and that most of our fathers have served in Pakistan's military in one form or another while others have carried on the mantle by serving themselves.

Except for one BC who has gone to marxist/PTM side after going to US. He is there on student visa and has set up several shops in US. A typical N-leagui. I would have ignored his N-league rants but I put him in his place when he started supporting PTM. Sometimes I think I should report him to ICE.

Pakistan could not function if it were a secular state. We would have had too many differences resulting in us separating our pathways. It is only the belief of the majority in Islam that so many different ethnicities are working together.

It would take centuries before all these ethnicities merge together to become a single ethnicity/race.

 

[Kabira]

you should also know that lohanas migrated from Central Asia to Gujarat, they have 2nd highest Central Asian lineages after Brahmins in entire South Asia and they themselves claims that they are from central asia on heir own official site and look down on sindhis and punjabis. as you can see

https://www.mylohana.com/page/lohana-history

technically speaking they have more in common with upper caste Indians from Gujarat, Rajasthan than aboriginal/Dalit/Jat-Gujjar/ converts from Sindh and Multan as genetics proved. they also follow the brahminical custom of sacred thread and look down on others including their own sindhi lohana brothers as Pakistanis, how do i know ? i have family members from that caste as well as friends.

Lohanas are nothing like indigenous gujjus or rajasthanis genetically, you are trolling at this point. Read up their history, their migration to Kutch isn't even that old from Sindh. Which is why they are similar to sindhis then indigenous upper caste gujjus like patels and brahmins/rajputs despite speaking different language now.

Brahmins, etc central asian migration is so old that its pointless to discuss here. Brahmin migration from Pakistan to India is relatively recent compared to that. And lohanas migration is only few hundred years old.

 

[Reddington]

Pakistan is an ideology.
Pakistan was, is and will always remain an Ideological State.

Pakistan is comprised of different ethnic groups like Punjabis, Pashtuns, Sindhis, Balochs, Kashmiris, Saraikis, Hazaras, Baltis, Muhajirs etc.

The binding force among all these different ethnicities/groups is Islam. Without Islam, Pakistan could never have existed.

 

[B.K.N]

Pakistan is comprised of different ethnic groups like Punjabis, Pashtuns, Sindhis, Balochs, Kashmiris, Saraikis, Hazaras, Baltis, Muhajirs etc.

But all of these groups can speak one same language wear same dress there are a lot of pashtuns working and living in Punjab and Sindh there is large population of balochs who speak seraiki/Punjabi/Sindhi living in Punjab and Sindh

 

[Crusher]

But all of these groups can speak one same language wear same dress there are a lot of pashtuns working and living in Punjab and Sindh there is large population of balochs who speak seraiki/Punjabi/Sindhi living in Punjab and Sindh

Many people here intentionally spread ignorance as if there was no "intermingling" between Punjabi, Saraiki, Baloch, Pakhtuns, Kashmiris etc. before 1947 which is absolutely rubbish. The people from Punjab, KPK, Kashmir, Balochistan have been settling in each others territories for many centuries before 1947. There is a reason we have big Kashmiri caste people in central punjab which predates 1947, Baloch origin caste population throughout southern and western punjab which also pre-dates 1947 by centuries, same is the case with Pakhtun/Pashtun caste people in Mianwali, Multan, Attock, Lahore and to lower extent throughout punjab which again predates 1947 by centuries, also many Sindhi and Saraiki speaking groups are found throughout Balochistan and many Balochi speaking groups throughout Sindh, Even Pakhtun areas of KPK also had sizeable punjabi speaking traders that also predates 1947 by a good couple of centuries.

Yet according to some "genius" people here on PDF Punjabis, Pakhtuns, Baloch, Kashmiris "never" had "any relations" with each other before 1947 which in my view is utter non-sense. Punjabis, Saraikis, Baloch, Pakhtuns, Sindhis have "interacted" with one another for centuries before 1947, they were not "complete strangers" for one another before 1947 as many so-called "ideology loving" people try to paint it. For god sake we have been geographically direct neighbors of each other for thousands of years.

 

[B.K.N]

Baloch origin caste population throughout southern and western punjab which is pre-dates 1947 by centuries,

Balochs are migrating towards Punjab since always folk hero of Baloch Chakar khan rind is buried in Okara Punjab
The person who is said to be the biggest land owner of Jhang Ghulam Muhammad Gadi is Baloch gadi is a Baloch tribe
districts of Bhakkar Layyah Rajun Pur DG Khan etc have a sizable Baloch population
Pashtuns are also living here some came few decades ago some few years ago they speak Pashto and Punjabi with accent there maybe some who came prior to 1947

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

i am just stating the truth that founder of your country claimed to be proud Indian and fought for the independence of India until he realized that Nehru is going to outsmart him and he must do something to leave his own legacy, being a Luvana by caste he did what he had to do.

quid was a Gujarati, he himself claims to be one and spoke Gujarati besides English only, he didn't know Hindi or Urdu until his last days and he only gave interviews and wrote letters in either English or Gujarati. before he left for his creation he visited his village and his house just like he did many times after settling down in Mumbai.

Karachi, Mumbai etc were settled by Gujaratis after British created those cities as their new economic centers, it h British who promoted Gujarati immigration to these cities to make cities more successful. i am from same district as Jinnah and my Grandfather have brothers who were born in Karachi as a big chunk of his own family moved there while rest of the family moved in Mumbai, Africa, Burma and UK.

It doesn’t mean much to an ideological state like Pakistan.

At 20 million atleast, 10% of our population are Urdu Speakers from today’s India, mostly from UP, Hyderabad, and Bihar.

They are still just as Pakistani as Punjabis or Pukhtoons.

Pakistan is a natural pathway of civilizations/armies which has absorbed migrants and settlers from as far away as Greece, Mongolia, and Africa.

Furthermore, this has been discussed to death previously that British India is not the modern Republic of India. Pakistan seceded from the British.

you should also know that lohanas migrated from Central Asia to Gujarat, they have 2nd highest Central Asian lineages after Brahmins in entire South Asia and they themselves claims that they are from central asia on heir own official site and look down on sindhis and punjabis. as you can see

https://www.mylohana.com/page/lohana-history

technically speaking they have more in common with upper caste Indians from Gujarat, Rajasthan than aboriginal/Dalit/Jat-Gujjar/ converts from Sindh and Multan as genetics proved. they also follow the brahminical custom of sacred thread and look down on others including their own sindhi lohana brothers as Pakistanis, how do i know ? i have family members from that caste as well as friends.



lol cope hard.

he was a luvana, luvanas are similar to Baniyas and have nothing in common with Rajputs, and real Rajputs clans of Gujarat and Rajasthan consider them baniyas. they are very famous for their baniyagiris in Gujarat. i know you punjabi converts love to claim all kind of ancestries but unlike your people, we know who our fathers are and from what lineage their community belongs.

Please move your discussion elsewhere or I will be forced to bring in mods to stop you from derailing this thread.

I specifically stated in OP that this thread is for Pakistanis to vote in and discuss the foundations of our state.

Peddle your nonsense elsewhere.

 

[Mamluk]

i am from same district as Jinnah and my Grandfather have brothers who were born in Karachi as a big chunk of his own family moved there while rest of the family moved in Mumbai, Africa, Burma and UK.

Being born in same district means nothing. Because of Caste System. The Lohana (Quaid's ancestors) originate in Sindh. They are vastly genetically different from Gujarati Tribals. Speaking Gujarati does not make you same - even Parsis speak Gujarati. It's like speaking English doesn't make you English.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Jamaican, Trinidadian, Barbadian, American talking in English. Does that make them English?

 

[B.K.N]

Jamaican, Trinidadian, Barbadian, American talking in English. Does that make them English?

Just like speaking Urdu/Hindi don't makes us Indian we are still Pakistanis but if entire population can speak one same language then it can make them 1 nation or can help in nation building be it Farsi Urdu English Arabic or any other language

 

[B.K.N]

if we were a Muslim Ummah state as posters claim should we give citizenships to Arabs,Persians,Turks,Bosnians,Indonesians,Central

Pakistan was created in the name of two nation theory and two nation theory nowhere mentions Bosnian or Somali Muslims
two nation theory simply means there are two nations in sub continent one is Hindus and other one is Muslims they can't live together and their way of life their culture their beliefs everything is different from each other etc
now some people would say doors of Pakistan should be kept open for Indian Muslims all the time any Indian Muslim can come here and get Pakistani citizenship
but demand of Pakistan wasn't like that
demand of muslim league was that all Muslim majority areas of India should be made Pakistan and no one said that we just want a piece of land where Muslims from all over the India or from all over the world would come and settle
But this demand wasn't fullfiled completely and only present day Pakistan and Bangladesh were made Pakistan
now if those Muslims living in UP or other areas of India want to live in separate Muslim Homeland then they should struggle for freedom and free homeland for the Muslims of the present day India that's their problem not ours

 

[Crusher]

demand of muslim league was that all Muslim majority areas of India should be made Pakistan and no one said that we just want a piece of land where Muslims from all over the India or from all over the world would come and settle
now if those Muslims living in UP or other areas of India want to live in separate Muslim Homeland then they should struggle for freedom and free homeland for the Muslims of the present day India it's their problem not ours

Exactly, If just 7 million Kashmiri Muslims of Kashmir valley have made the life hell for indian army and indian state and struggling hard by all means for their independence from india. Then what stops 180 million indian muslims to do practical struggle for their own homeland within present day India, but the fact of the matter is that Indian muslims are khassi cowards and they don't have the fighting spirit like Kashmiri muslims, hence you see indian khassi muslims only whining instead of doing anything practical against their persecution by indian radical hindu religious and political extremists groups like RSS and BJP. Kashmiri muslims on the other hand have pride in their religion/ethnicity/culture and hence they are making practical political as well as armed struggle against a mighty indian state and its military for many many decades.