Is Pakistan the heir to the Mughals?

[Novus ordu seclorum]

I think Pakistan is and should be considered the heir of the Mughal Empire.

Not at all. Their mentality is opposite. Pakistanis say they have nothing to do with India and desire nothing to do with India [separatists], whereas Mughal built massive Indian Empire uniting Greater India in the tradition of the previous Delhi Sultanate and the ancient Maurya Indian empire which was even bigger. So, Mughal was primarily built by Indian Muslims, as well as Hindus, a significant number of whom became Muslim and some others were close to Muslims.

 

[Maula Jatt]

Talk like a true peasant. … just add to it, and God has chose few to rule over the peasant minded people. Remember, if it wasn’t for Mughal. You would be eat cow dung in some mandir.

Mughals even in their 300 years of rule, have seen ups and down. Good days and bad day, where they lost everything, went to Afghanistan, even to Persia to regroup and regain.
But again you cannot mix gadha (a slave or a peasant) with ghora. Gadha (slave minded peasant ) remained gadha, but ghora fought back and recreated empire from nothing. Now the legacy is so strong, that news media after 300 years, is still compelled to do an Article for those that make claim ( regardless of true or false).

Meanwhile, your ancestors did nothing , contributed nothing. Created nothing, therefore, neither history nor present has anything to offer them. NOTHING.

hard to find a non slum dog Mughal
It's pretty much a meme when some "Mughal" sitting in a slum starts begging for something and is quickly shown the door
Only rulling done is on the paan store of a slum somewhere in UP/Karachi selling cigrates and doing laundebaazi

As I said no one cares one about mughals especially no son of soil will worship another man, except for God or care for it and if someone's acting over smart they'll be given treatment

besides no proud man would do anything other than spit on the graves of those who drank, whored around and were a breed of bastards (going by islamic laws here as all mughals were born out of Hindu mothers)

love the lands, fear God, faught when flag is under attack, gave nishaan e Haider, gave PMs, form a chunk of the army, every army in history is incomplete without em

So Better stick to your expertise of running corner store paan shop and rulling 4x4 shack in a slum somewhere and let the men talk
You're as insignificant as people in slums usually are

 

[SIPRA]

Does Pakistan even have any mughal ancestry claimants to recognize? In India they pop up every now and then

Yes, we have. A person laid claim to Lahore Fort, quite sometime ago.

 

[jamahir]

and were a breed of bastards (going by islamic laws here as all mughals were born out of Hindu mothers)

All I see is your contempt for the idea of Humanism. Sorry to say but you should have stayed in your Punjabi village and not gone to America where, not accounting for the genocide of the Native Americans, that country was built up of migrants of many elements of race, religion and political hues.

 

[SIPRA]

pakistan can have mughal empire no issues here

Thanks, for your generosity.

 

[Maula Jatt]

All I see is your contempt for the idea of Humanism. Sorry to say but you should have stayed in your Punjabi village and not gone to America where, not accounting for the genocide of the Native Americans, that country was built up of migrants of many elements of race, religion and political hues.

What's with you and butting into every Convo...
Go preech somewhere else

 

[jamahir]

What's with you and butting into every Convo...
Go preech somewhere else

So my words were wasted on you. Oh well. And you are the member of a discussion forum.

 

[Genghis khan1]

hard to find a non slum dog Mughal
It's pretty much a meme when some "Mughal" sitting in a slum starts begging for something and is quickly shown the door
Only rulling done is on the paan store of a slum somewhere in UP/Karachi selling cigrates and doing laundebaazi

As I said no one cares one about mughals especially no son of soil will worship another man, except for God or care for it and if someone's acting over smart they'll be given treatment

besides no proud man would do anything other than spit on the graves of those who drank, whored around and were a breed of bastards (going by islamic laws here as all mughals were born out of Hindu mothers)

love the lands, fear God, faught when flag is under attack, gave nishaan e Haider, gave PMs, form a chunk of the army, every army in history is incomplete without em

So Better stick to your expertise of running corner store paan shop and rulling 4x4 shack in a slum somewhere and let the men talk
You're as insignificant as people in slums usually

Ok. Whatever you say, slum expert. Wouldn’t change the fact on ground.

 

[SIPRA]

How much fusion do you allow after which some people stop being considered 'heirs' to a particular empire? 100 years? 300 years?

Firstly no Hindu claims to be heir to the Mughal empire. We claim the heritage to the extent that it is a shared heritage (the influences in architecture, food, music etc). Of course, we cannot also close our eyes and minds to the numerous monuments, which were built with the sweat, blood and tax money of our ancestors. And not just my ancestors, but also the ancestor of every Pakistani on PDF.

I hope you know that the Mughal empire stretched till the Bay of Bengal through a combination of administrative machineries. There are various ethnic groups that inhabit these lands - Hindu jaats, Rajputs, Biharis, Bengalis and Assamese. That is why I asked first - how much fusion do you allow? The Mughals were numerically a small group when they arrived in India. Pakistanis would conveniently restrict it to a level where their fair skinned brethren can be passed off as a Mughal, despite the fact that early Mughals had distinct Mongoloid appearance.

What is referred to as Persianized Mughal court culture existed in large parts in an area that was known as Central Provinces and United Provinces during British rule. Some Muslims from this region (as well as others) migrated to Pakistan after 1947, but a large majority stayed back. Do these Indian muslims have more right to claim the Mughal empire?

Lahore was not the only seat of the Mughal empire. Delhi and Agra were also Mughal capitals at different points. For conquerors, a battle for India was the battle for Delhi, not Lahore. This is not to deny the importance and cultural majesty of Lahore, but one needs to call out revisionist tendencies, whether they are of the Pakistani variety or Indian variety. There is a lot of attempt in India these days to resurrect Hindu figures and events from history (and I have absolutely no problem with that), but in the process we are giving Pakistan an opportunity to act as the sole custodian of our Mughal/Islamic history. Even if BJP is trying to shred those links, the claims of heritage cannot automatically fall on the lap of Pakistanis exclusively.

Frankly all claims to glorious empires are hollow in today's times. The countries that have done well are those that have chosen to focus on the present and future.

We, people of Subcontinent, are strange creatures.

Khaanay ko roti naheen hae, aur koyi Chandragupta Maurya kay saath lataknay ki koshish ker raha hae, tau koyi Mughal Empire kay saath.

"Cheen o Arab hamaara, Hindustan hamaara
Rehnay ko ghar naheen hae, sara jahaan hamaara"

 

[Kambojaric]

Depends on how we are defining "heir". For example all countries speaking a Latin based language like France, Portugal and even Romania could arguably be considered heirs of the Roman Empire in the sense that they draw significant cultural, historical and linguistic baggage from their Roman heritage.

Similarly South American countries like Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador could all claim some level of Incan heritage.

Ultimately very few modern countries outside of Europe could be considered direct heirs of pre-modern empires as very few survived colonialism. Ethiopia, Thailand and Japan are some of the few modern countries that spring to my mind, who made this transition from pre-modern statehood to modern statehood without the intervention of colonialism.

Coming to the case of Pakistan and the Mughal Empire there is obviously a link due to language (Urdu), heritage (Lahore: one of the capitals of the great Mughals), culture and politics (zamindari systems, kushti/pehlwani, mughlai food to name a few).

However barring Lahore, these links are not universal but rather are shared with other nations in the northern half of the Subcontinent. However one direct albeit tenuous link could arguably be Syed Ahmed Khan.

As a scion of Mughal nobility and whose close relatives were ministers and advisors to the last Mughal Emperor's, his role in the development of Muslim national conscious in this region eventually resulted in the Pakistan movement. That is a clear link for whatever that is worth in my opinion.

 

[Shehryar Ashraf]

well someone has to be the heir to the mughals, and it cant be the cow worshippers, so by the process of elimination there is only 1 answer.

 

[Paitoo]

We, people of Subcontinent, are strange creatures.

Khaanay ko roti naheen hae, aur koyi Chandragupta Maurya kay saath lataknay ki koshish ker raha hae, tau koyi Mughal Empire kay saath.

"Cheen o Arab hamaara، Hindustan hamaara
Rehnay ko ghar naheen hae, sara jahaan hamaara"

To quote an Indian politician, this is the result of excessive ajinomoto in the diet. Noodles aur Manchurian - na khaein, na khilaein.

Cheen or Arab ka to pata nahin, Cheeni aur Arbi hamari zaroor hai.

 

[Joe Shearer]

hard to find a non slum dog Mughal
It's pretty much a meme when some "Mughal" sitting in a slum starts begging for something and is quickly shown the door
Only rulling done is on the paan store of a slum somewhere in UP/Karachi selling cigrates and doing laundebaazi

As I said no one cares one about mughals especially no son of soil will worship another man, except for God or care for it and if someone's acting over smart they'll be given treatment

besides no proud man would do anything other than spit on the graves of those who drank, whored around and were a breed of bastards (going by islamic laws here as all mughals were born out of Hindu mothers)

love the lands, fear God, faught when flag is under attack, gave nishaan e Haider, gave PMs, form a chunk of the army, every army in history is incomplete without em

So Better stick to your expertise of running corner store paan shop and rulling 4x4 shack in a slum somewhere and let the men talk
You're as insignificant as people in slums usually are

It was strange to find a strain of bitterness in your post. Considering the number of Pakistanis whom I have met, who take - shall we say, extraordinary - pride in their Jat, Gujjar and Rajput ancestry, the kind of contempt that was displayed about the political marriages that the Mughals contracted was over the top.

Depends on how we are defining "heir". For example all countries speaking a Latin based language like France, Portugal and even Romania could arguably be considered heirs of the Roman Empire in the sense that they draw significant cultural, historical and linguistic baggage from their Roman heritage.

Similarly South American countries like Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador could all claim some level of Incan heritage.

Ultimately very few modern countries outside of Europe could be considered direct heirs of pre-modern empires as very few survived colonialism. Ethiopia, Thailand and Japan are some of the few modern countries that spring to my mind, who made this transition from pre-modern statehood to modern statehood without the intervention of colonialism.

Coming to the case of Pakistan and the Mughal Empire there is obviously a link due to language (Urdu), heritage (Lahore: one of the capitals of the great Mughals), culture and politics (zamindari systems, kushti/pehlwani, mughlai food to name a few).

However barring Lahore, these links are not universal but rather are shared with other nations in the northern half of the Subcontinent. However one direct albeit tenuous link could arguably be Syed Ahmed Khan.

As a scion of Mughal nobility and whose close relatives were ministers and advisors to the last Mughal Emperor's, his role in the development of Muslim national conscious in this region eventually resulted in the Pakistan movement. That is a clear link for whatever that is worth in my opinion.

That is stretching a point, but not beyond endurance.

We, people of Subcontinent, are strange creatures.

Khaanay ko roti naheen hae, aur koyi Chandragupta Maurya kay saath lataknay ki koshish ker raha hae, tau koyi Mughal Empire kay saath.

"Cheen o Arab hamaara، Hindustan hamaara
Rehnay ko ghar naheen hae, sara jahaan hamaara"

Ouch!

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

However one direct albeit tenuous link could arguably be Syed Ahmed Khan ... his role in the development of Muslim national conscious in this region eventually resulted in the Pakistan movement. That is a clear link for whatever that is worth in my opinion.

He would be appalled to be separated from India, as if Muslim is a separate nationality.

 

[Maula Jatt]

It was strange to find a strain of bitterness in your post. Considering the number of Pakistanis whom I have met, who take - shall we say, extraordinary - pride in their Jat, Gujjar and Rajput ancestry, the kind of contempt that was displayed about the political marriages that the Mughals contracted was over the top.


That is stretching a point, but not beyond endurance.


Ouch!

Apologies, heat of the moment but according to laws majority of mughals would be considered illegitimate/bastards
so what I am saying is true even if it sounds bad or politically incorrect

I take it back if I can but I am not exactly wrong