IS PAKISTAN SELECTING THE T-129 ATAK?

[I S I]

Pakistan can progress in every field of life but availability of funds is an issue. Our manpower working abroad will come back to Pakistan. All the overseas experts are not namak harams like Abdus Salam or other qadyanis!

You lost your argument right there.
@waz @WebMaster please take notice of hate speech.

 

[tarrar]

The MI-28 is a capable platform similar to the AH-64...there is no doubt it is a more versatile platform then what Turkey's helo offers...but when a state inducts a new platform, especially the one with limited resources, all the factors are taken into account which make a huge difference in the costs when they are summed up....
The Turkish are willing to offer ToT and a maintenance + overhaul facility to Pakistan.....u cannot expect that from Russians unless u have lots of $$$...


Source: https://defence.pk/threads/is-pakistan-selecting-the-t-129-atak.441782/#ixzz4FsQkMoDr

ToT with the US made engine & other US made components? There is no official confirmation yet on what you have said related to ToT, people are only assuming.

 

[ebrahym]

attack aircraft

my bad i meant attack helicopter ........... i m gonna edit my post above

 

[Super Falcon]

Pakistan now should not hurry in purchase of T129 now, as Russians now have unveiled the new Mi28 NM, which is a better version of previous MI28. Pakistan should run a trial on the new MI28 NM, who knows may be it will perform better than T129 & WZ10. Pakistan should try MI28NM out.

Brother you have sense agreed
MI 28 is heavy-duty gunship we need firepower in air against Indian aggression it will make life easy for PAF too

Pakistan should not buy super cobra
Buy T 129 ATAK in place of cobras approximately 50 for medium role

And buy Russian MI 28 HAVOC power in air approximately 40 and don't invest in z 10 etc

Just go with these 2 beasts it will also make Russia to shift helicopter engine service centres in Pakistan

 

[waz]

The MI-28 is a capable platform similar to the AH-64...there is no doubt it is a more versatile platform then what Turkey's helo offers...but when a state inducts a new platform, especially the one with limited resources, all the factors are taken into account which make a huge difference in the costs when they are summed up....
The Turkish are willing to offer ToT and a maintenance + overhaul facility to Pakistan.....u cannot expect that from Russians unless u have lots of $$$...


Source: https://defence.pk/threads/is-pakistan-selecting-the-t-129-atak.441782/#ixzz4FsQkMoDr

The Russians should be cut out completely(unreliable) . The PA is right go for the Viper, which is the best helicopter out there, and the only thing on par with the Apache, which India is getting in significant numbers. The rest should be the Atak, and wait till the Z-10 matures.

 

[tarrar]

Brother you have sense agreed
MI 28 is heavy-duty gunship we need firepower in air against Indian aggression it will make life easy for PAF too

Pakistan should not buy super cobra
Buy T 129 ATAK in place of cobras approximately 50 for medium role

And buy Russian MI 28 HAVOC power in air approximately 40 and don't invest in z 10 etc

Just go with these 2 beasts it will also make Russia to shift helicopter engine service centres in Pakistan

New MI28NM

 

[Ghazwa e Hind]

You lost your argument right there.
@waz @WebMaster please take notice of hate speech.

Hate speech or feedom of speech? 2/3rd of this forum should have banned if this is hate speech!

 

[jetstar]

it will be a good choice because its an american technology

 

[damm1t]

it will be a good choice because its an american technology

What American tech? Are you out of mind? The engine is just Usa made, avionics, eletcronics, sensors, weapons all Turkish.

 

[jetstar]

oh yes Like Engine is US tech you are correct

What American tech? Are you out of mind? The engine is just Usa made, avionics, eletcronics, sensors, weapons all Turkish.

 

[mueeztheman]

the real irony is that Pakistan has not been able to make an attack helicopter design indigeniously ......... i mean it cant be as complicated as JFT ...........

I agree, Pakistan should try and make a prototype and then secondary indigenous helicopter to gradually replace the primary foreign ones. If it is done well we could sell on to nations like Sri Lanka, Kuwait, Qatar etc.

 

[mrrehan]

The Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) T-129. Photo credit: TAI.

Bilal Khan -
IS PAKISTAN SELECTING THE T-129 ATAK?
With the completion of the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) T-129 ATAK’s trials in Pakistan in June, it appears that the Pakistan Army is pressing ahead with the platform, at least as a leading contender for its dedicated attack helicopter needs.

At this year’s Farnborough Air Show, which concluded last week, a Pakistani delegation reportedly (source in Turkish) met with TAI to discuss how the ATAK could be tailored for the Pakistan Army’s specific needs.

In addition, Pakistani representatives will also observe Roketsan Mizrak-U (aka UMTAS) anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) qualification tests from the T-129 in the coming months.

Comment and Analysis

Although the Pakistan Army has the Bell AH-1Z Viper in the procurement pipeline (with 11 aircraft out of 15 on order), it appears that the Army will procure another dedicated attack helicopter. The impetus for this could be from the Army’s need assume the bulk of its close air support (CAS) needs (see: A strong Army Aviation is vital to Pakistan’s CAS strategy). Besides counterinsurgency (COIN), the CAS element will need to be available in times of conflict with state-level actors (i.e. India).

Given the nature of Pakistan’s relationship with the U.S., broadening dependence on American platforms for a need that will greatly center on external threats will neither be prudent or possible. In turn, the Army designated the CAIG Z-10, TAI T-129, and Mil Mi-28NE as its prospective mainstay options. Pakistan may be in touch with the Russians over the Mi-28NE (which is seeing increasingly widespread adoption in parts of the world), but the Z-10 did participate during this year’s Pakistan Day Parade.

The status of the Z-10 and Mi-28NE are unclear, but seeing the Army engage with TAI on how the T-129 could be adapted for the former’s needs is a significant sign. It is an indication that the aircraft has done sufficiently well in operating under Pakistan’s geographical and environmental conditions, and that Army Aviation apparently views the T-129 as a viable platform.

It is important to have an understanding of what the Pakistan Army would be looking for in terms of a CAS asset. For example, there would be limited value in acquiring a platform that does not have access to a millimeter wave (mmW) radar, which is used to track targets based on their metallic signature. In an age where passive self-protection measures, such as burying laser locks via smoke screens, are very common, mmW has emerged as a strong means for offensive engagement against armoured vehicles. To properly contend with effective passive and increasingly common active – i.e. hard-kill – protective measures, the Pakistan Army will need a mmW radar and mmW-tipped air-to-ground missiles (AGM).

It is unclear if Russia and Western Europe would be willing to offer such technology to Pakistan, but China and Turkey conceivably could. It is plausible that Turkey has assured the Pakistan Army of access to mmW technology once it is developed in Turkey. The core Turkish program in this area is the Meteksan MILDAR, which has been in development for at least the past five years. It is another question of how TAI intends to integrate the MILDAR solution onto the T-129, but that is secondary in comparison to the point of being in possession of the technology itself.

The second major issue is dependency, generally on the West, and specifically on the U.S. Although the T-129 ATAK is a direct descendent of the AugustaWestland (now Leonardo) A-129 Mangusta, TAI has full ownership and rights over the design, and produces it in full in Turkey. The exception to this is the ATAK’s turboshaft, which is the Rolls-Royce and Honeywell LHTEC T800. In effect, TAI would need the approval of the U.S. or potentially the U.K. in order to re-export the T800.

In response to this issue, TAI reportedly told a Turkish defence publication that because Pakistan acquired the AH-1Z, it should have no trouble with acquiring the T800. Sadly, this is far from certain, just as approval for Foreign Military Financing (FMF) – while at one point expected – for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF)’s F-16 Block-52+ purchase did not pan out, despite the fact that Pakistan fought in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) for 10 years, or the reality that the F-16 is Washington’s central foreign policy tool for use in Pakistan’s policymaking circles. That said, one could reasonably argue that TAI would not have even trialed the T-129 in Pakistan had it not received assurances from the U.S.

The third issue is cost. Unlike China or the U.S., Turkey’s ability to offer initial credit or a loan in order to get a deal moving is very limited, it will require cash payments. With Pakistan’s procurement spending for the next eight years projected at $12 billion U.S., its ability to commit cash is limited. TAI could – and likely will given that it has done this before on other programs – do is offer commercial offsets and transfer-of-technology benefits in exchange for buying the T-129. For example, the T-129 could come with complete maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) facilities in Pakistan, including some spare parts manufacturing, which in turn could be linked to the T-129’s overall supply-chain.

The fact that the Turkish Army T-129s will be in production in parallel with export aircraft (e.g. Pakistan) is also advantageous for Pakistan. Pakistan has the time and spare to acquire the T-129 in incremental batches over the period it is being built for the Turkish Army, and as such, is only obligated to provide the cash for the helicopters it immediately needs.

The whole matter is still in its early stages, but it has evidently progressed – i.e. from interest, to trials (in June), to possible package building. While the failed coup may push the schedule up (in terms of months at the minimum), this is the first real momentum seen in Pakistan’s attack helicopter push since the AH-1Z and Mi-35 orders. If the T-129 comes to fruition, especially alongside the MILGEM corvettes, then there is no doubt that Turkey will have cemented itself as Pakistan’s leading defence hardware supplier in recent years (second only to China), which will be significant on its own terms.
Source: QUWA.org

T-129 has quite a few western equipment that could be prone to section in future for Pakistan.

 

[Tank131]

T-129's engine is US/British in origin and that's it. Every other Italian or European tech is produced in Turkey or was replaced by Turkish tech and Turkey had acquired full rights to export to any nation it wished. The Engine could be a problem but that too can have solutions (of the Chinese variety). The major benefit that Turkey offers Pakistan which China cant, it in flexibility of loadouts, be it helicopters or ships. Pakistan will have the ability to fit American, European, russian, chinese, turkish, korean, S.African, or indigenous systems onto Turkish platforms whereas Chinese will likely only allow Chinese or indigenous systems (and in some cases Russian). They may or may not allow turkish or S.African systems too, but American and European systems would likely be out. Additionally, having all your eggs in Chinese basket may be great now, but it could cause problems when it comes to mounting independent policies if your interests ever diverge from China. Having 2 great allies like China and Turkey in your corner is a great benefit for Pakistan in that diversification of systems lends itself to allow Pakistan flexibility to that 15 years from now, you arent seeing a repeat of the F-16 fiasco, just this time with ships or z-10.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

T-129's engine is US/British in origin and that's it. Every other Italian or European tech is produced in Turkey or was replaced by Turkish tech and Turkey had acquired full rights to export to any nation it wished. The Engine could be a problem but that too can have solutions (of the Chinese variety). The major benefit that Turkey offers Pakistan which China cant, it in flexibility of loadouts, be it helicopters or ships. Pakistan will have the ability to fit American, European, russian, chinese, turkish, korean, S.African, or indigenous systems onto Turkish platforms whereas Chinese will likely only allow Chinese or indigenous systems (and in some cases Russian). They may or may not allow turkish or S.African systems too, but American and European systems would likely be out. Additionally, having all your eggs in Chinese basket may be great now, but it could cause problems when it comes to mounting independent policies if your interests ever diverge from China. Having 2 great allies like China and Turkey in your corner is a great benefit for Pakistan in that diversification of systems lends itself to allow Pakistan flexibility to that 15 years from now, you arent seeing a repeat of the F-16 fiasco, just this time with ships or z-10.

Turkey's Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSM) tasked TUSAS Engine Industries (TEI) to develop a turboshaft engine for the T-129, T-625 and Hurkus over the next two years. Turkey can literally 'smile and walk' if the U.S. or U.K., both of whom reliant on Turkish contracts in various areas (e.g. TFX, Black Hawk sale, etc), block the sale of LHTEC engines. Besides, it isn't as if a Pakistani order today would roll out tomorrow, there's generally a 2-3 year-plus period for building, flight testing, integration, training, etc.

 

[mdmm]

Friends. Is there any confirmed news from agreement by Government of Nawaz Sharif or Pakistan army that Pakistan has signed agreement for
1- T-129 ATAK helicopters
2- AH 1Z Viper Attack Helicopter
3- J-31 fighter planes