Is Pakistan Better Off Industrially (and More Diverse in Industrial Production) Compared to Bangladesh?

[HRK]

 

[bluesky]

Fork and spoon cutleries...

Thanks for sending many pictures/ videos where our brothers in Pakistan produce metal-based goods by the use of small machines. Entire west Pakistan has/ had the culture of producing guns, bullets, cricket bats and ball, hukka, and many decorative water pots, carpets, and the likes,

All these require quite a sense of workmanship. Reading the history of Japan, you can see the Japanese had similar abilities as our Pakistanis have. Perhaps, you know no other country could beat Japan in producing strong swords for the Samurai warriors.

I am unable to describe the process. But, a Samurai sword has two layers of steel that is combined through a long process of tempering that makes it very strong and sharp. Many such similar indigenous mechanical/ metallurgical technologies were incorporated into the technologies for modern industries after 1886. The situation now is however different.

Similarly, Pakistani people can also incorporate their traditional mechanical know-how when the country starts building its own machines.

By the way, when you buy a new car, it is wiser to temper the engine by not overdriving, but running a, say 10km distance slow speed. Come back at a slow speed and let it cool. If you do it for a few days, your engine and other parts will get tempered. And it will give you fewer problems in the next few years of use.

 

[HRK]

 

[Bilal9]

Thanks for sending many pictures/ videos where our brothers in Pakistan produce metal-based goods by the use of small machines. Entire west Pakistan has/ had the culture of producing guns, bullets, cricket bats and ball, hukka, and many decorative water pots, carpets, and the likes,

All these require quite a sense of workmanship. Reading the history of Japan, you can see the Japanese had similar abilities as our Pakistanis have. Perhaps, you know no other country could beat Japan in producing strong swords for the Samurai warriors.

I am unable to describe the process. But, a Samurai sword has two layers of steel that is combined through a long process of tempering that makes it very strong and sharp. Many such similar indigenous mechanical/ metallurgical technologies were incorporated into the technologies for modern industries after 1886. The situation now is however different.

Similarly, Pakistani people can also incorporate their traditional mechanical know-how when the country starts building its own machines.

By the way, when you buy a new car, it is wiser to temper the engine by not overdriving, but running a, say 10km distance slow speed. Come back at a slow speed and let it cool. If you do it for a few days, your engine and other parts will get tempered. And it will give you fewer problems in the next few years of use.

That last para was gold.

Yes I did know about this. Modern car manuals also ask to drive at very slow speeds for the first hundred miles or so.

 

[bluesky]

If this installation is replicated a thousand times, you don't need automatic blow-molding machines or robotics. We in the subcontinent need to be practical and appreciative of "appropriate technology" and how it can generate income for the poor folks.

I am really surprised at the entrepreneurship of the Pakistanis. This is the first time that I saw how oil cans are produced though I don't know what are those asphalt-looking materials.

I can see a little old-time Japan in Pakistan. I think, all the developed countries of today started producing goods in a not very sophisticated way but they continuously upgraded their machines and the ways of production.

Pakistan has reached the very threshold of industrialization where mechanical design engineers can design things more sophisticatedly.

In the case of BD, we produce our own plastic buckets, but don't know how they are produced.

 

[SecularNationalist]

Pakistan makes her own Fighters, Missiles, Tanks, Subs etc. What does Bangladesh make?

Every country on this planet need a defense equipment including pakistan.
Pakistan actually makes her own good quality jets,missiles etc which is a huge milestone in being a self reliant nation.
Tejas is flop,Arjun is flop your missiles are a paint job.When you acheive the same then troll please.

 

[peagle]

I want to start with a preface, I realise this thread is a comparison between Bangladesh and Pakistan’s level of industrial development, but my contribution will be in relation to the region rather then just Bangladesh. I just can't do it, I was born after our separation, but Bangladesh holds a special place in my heart, so I refuse a direct comparison. In all honesty, there are few things that annoy me, but those are political so I wont mention here. I hope we both continue developing, I’ll be happy even if Bangladesh still has higher per capita income when I die, as long as Pakistan is no more then 10% behind lol

I really enjoyed reading everyone’s contributions, few members misunderstood the intentions of some people, but that’s to be expected. Also, because Indonesia was mentioned, I’ll just add that Indonesia keeps astounding me, I do not know much about them, but it seems they are following the Chinese model, keep your head down and develop. I suppose it is easier to follow such an approach being away from centres of global trouble spots. But good for Indonesia, and they are making the most of it.


Regarding Pakistan, these small scale industries, and large scale industry which has not been covered here so far, but Pakistan does have larger industries that are generally less visible. Besides the showing of examples, and what exists and what doesn’t exit, there is another way of looking at issues, everything in life is all about the perspective, my contribution will touch upon the perspective.

We are concerned with two aspects, capacity and capability, the active part and the potential part. The active part is the visible part, the aspect that is in place, that’s the capacity. The capability is the proven potential, but not visible for one reason or another. Pakistan is far more advanced then people are willing to recognise or are simply blinded by it, especially Pakistanis themselves. the active capacity of Pakistan does not concern me, but the capability does, because it is never discussed or mentioned in the correct format.

It is important to reiterate that Pakistan is a developing economy, with small capacities, so it has to actively choose where it’s energies are spent, energies in a sense its active industrial capacity and financial resources. When you are small you have to choose carefully. For example, India is still dirt poor and has been since its birth in 1947, but it is large, not just by population but also its economy. People fail to realise that India has been among the top 10 economies of the world since its creation, purely due to its large population. Because it’s economy was large despite being poor, it was able to allocate resources towards non military industrial development, allowing it to develop varied industrial structures, besides it’s rich inheritance from the British. So, size matters.

In the case of Pakistan, security has been important right from birth, till this day. Without going into details, it is important to remember that the choices regarding industrial development that Pakistan made were with security factors in mind. Because it was not large enough, it could not filter extra public or private resources for varied industrial developments, those energies had to be directed towards anything that increased the security of the state.

Now if we look at what the country has achieved, and imagine for a moment, that those energies can easily be diverted towards civilian industrial development, the capabilities that exit in Pakistan take on a different meaning. Developing a dual uranium and plutonium nuclear infrastructure is no small feat, it takes enormous capacities and capabilities to do that. It was done when times were different, less advanced, less access to technology.

Countries such as Iran are following a path set by Pakistan, that too only a uranium path. In these times, Education is far more widespread, information readily available, and industrial items are also more readily available, and the material sciences are more developed. We are just living in a different world. When Pakistan did it, it was a lot lot harder. Here accusations usually follow that you stole this and that. That is a hypocritical approach. The world has begged borrowed and stole, to build themselves and develop themselves, throughout history. The Chinese took from the Russians, the Russians from the British and the Americans, and so on. The America nuclear program was a joint British American effort till Americans told the British to F.off, and many important scientists were immigrants.

After the second World War, the Americans and the Soviets went hunting for Nazi scientists, both took around 2000 scientists each. These nations developed because of those scientists. The person who headed the Lunar program that took America to the moon was an ex Nazi scientist. So, I’ve seen hypocrisy is Always active when discussing Pakistan, especially by Pakistanis themselves, because most do not know any better.

Those potential energies were applied by Pakistan to the missile program, development of an armament industry, which right now provides a large portion of Pakistan's domestic needs, that is immense value, a value that is constantly underestimated and unrecognised. But, those step were important, because without security you have no country, without a country what are you? a nomad, a vagabond, a tramp, a lost soul.

In conclusion, Pakistan has unseen active capabilities, those capabilities require a suitable sized economy to flourish, or a suitable environment, for instance, peace, to expand and flourish. I tried to keep this short but I think it has gone on long enough.

Most of Pakistan’s capabilities are not visible, its like the social media discovery of Pakistan, the image they had was totally different to the one they see with their eyes. So, the active capacities and capabilities of Pakistan are a lot more varied and mature then what is visible.

Stay blessed, and keep developing.

 

[Bilal9]

I am really surprised at the entrepreneurship of the Pakistanis. This is the first time that I saw how oil cans are produced though I don't know what are those asphalt-looking materials.

I can see a little old-time Japan in Pakistan. I think, all the developed countries of today started producing goods in a not very sophisticated way but they continuously upgraded their machines and the ways of production.

Pakistan has reached the very threshold of industrialization where mechanical design engineers can design things more sophisticatedly.

In the case of BD, we produce our own plastic buckets, but don't know how they are produced.

I think the skill-upgradation (also ability to add value) en-masse and at lower income levels (and in village areas) is what I was positing as a subject and pushing the Pakistani examples, and most Bangladeshis don't get this. You obviously get the idea.

You see - anyone can invest a million dollars and get highly efficient production machinery to produce products en-masse in an ultra clean factory. In fact we are doing that in Bangladesh in some cases, as is Pakistan.

But how many people can we employ like this, and they will also need to be educated with probably a minimum B-Tech degree and those people are in short supply in Bangladesh.

This points directly toward diversifying exports (apparel only now, in Bangladesh' case) and having enough cheaper import-substitute products locally (which will also help in reducing gap of PPP versus Nominal GDP levels).

Either we have to educate people en-masse in vocational and technical disciplines (to employ in high-investment automated factories) or setup more of these basic low-tech appropriate-technology roadside workshops and factories in villages where B-tech education is not a requirement.

To produce items in a low-investment, low-tech (or appropriate-technology) factory starting with forging/molding raw metal/alloys like steel, brass, aluminum and copper, then process them from scratch into acceptable consumer items (such as pressure cookers and aluminium cookware) which the lower middle class will buy at an acceptable price is a skill we have yet to master in Bangladesh, which Pakistan has fortunately mastered from a very basic level.

We also make cookware and pressure cookers in Bangladesh, but the aluminum sheet stock is neither molded not rolled/pressed/punched locally, and value addition is only partial. We have to depend on imported Indian aluminum plate I am guessing (in that industry) and this dependence is,
a) unwarranted and,
b) subject to price/demand manipulation by Indians (or whomever sells it to us).

It is clear to see in Pakistani cottage industries that apprentices are starting at basic level, picking up skills, mastering them and applying them as they get older. I'm sure Pakistan Govt. is subsidizing this activity - but our govt. small and cottage industry promotion people in Bangladesh are totally useless in this area.

These workshops in Pakistan are roadside workshops in mofussil and village areas in Pakistan, with people not having a lot of formal education (but highly skilled), and who can still add value locally, like Japan did back in the early 1900s, and which we should also replicate in Bangladesh more and more.

With time - appropriate technology automation and industrial sophistication at village level (using hydraulic and pneumatic assist) will also come to Pakistani small and cottage industry.

But my point was that we don't even have in Bangladesh, what they have in Pakistan right now, as far as independent industrial processes. And those are located in out-of-the-way often inaccessible areas in Pakistan. We need to up our game on this.

IMHO- the small and cottage industry people in Bangladesh (BSCIC) should seek help from Pakistani cottage industry people in Gujranwala-Sialkot-Gujrat "Golden Triangle" industrial cities with export-oriented economies. Similarly, Pakistani bhais are welcome to come to Bangladesh to replicate our SEZ examples if they so wish. I believe Gujranwala in Pakistan is self-sufficient in producing industrial machines like lathes, manual metal machining centers etc.

This is BSCIC description.

Bangladesh Small and Cottage Industries Corporation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Bilal9]

I want to start with a preface, I realise this thread is a comparison between Bangladesh and Pakistan’s level of industrial development, but my contribution will be in relation to the region rather then just Bangladesh. I just can't do it, I was born after our separation, but Bangladesh holds a special place in my heart, so I refuse a direct comparison. In all honesty, there are few things that annoy me, but those are political so I wont mention here. I hope we both continue developing, I’ll be happy even if Bangladesh still has higher per capita income when I die, as long as Pakistan is no more then 10% behind lol

I really enjoyed reading everyone’s contributions, few members misunderstood the intentions of some people, but that’s to be expected. Also, because Indonesia was mentioned, I’ll just add that Indonesia keeps astounding me, I do not know much about them, but it seems they are following the Chinese model, keep your head down and develop. I suppose it is easier to follow such an approach being away from centres of global trouble spots. But good for Indonesia, and they are making the most of it.


Regarding Pakistan, these small scale industries, and large scale industry which has not been covered here so far, but Pakistan does have larger industries that are generally less visible. Besides the showing of examples, and what exists and what doesn’t exit, there is another way of looking at issues, everything in life is all about the perspective, my contribution will touch upon the perspective.

We are concerned with two aspects, capacity and capability, the active part and the potential part. The active part is the visible part, the aspect that is in place, that’s the capacity. The capability is the proven potential, but not visible for one reason or another. Pakistan is far more advanced then people are willing to recognise or are simply blinded by it, especially Pakistanis themselves. the active capacity of Pakistan does not concern me, but the capability does, because it is never discussed or mentioned in the correct format.

It is important to reiterate that Pakistan is a developing economy, with small capacities, so it has to actively choose where it’s energies are spent, energies in a sense its active industrial capacity and financial resources. When you are small you have to choose carefully. For example, India is still dirt poor and has been since its birth in 1947, but it is large, not just by population but also its economy. People fail to realise that India has been among the top 10 economies of the world since its creation, purely due to its large population. Because it’s economy was large despite being poor, it was able to allocate resources towards non military industrial development, allowing it to develop varied industrial structures, besides it’s rich inheritance from the British. So, size matters.

In the case of Pakistan, security has been important right from birth, till this day. Without going into details, it is important to remember that the choices regarding industrial development that Pakistan made were with security factors in mind. Because it was not large enough, it could not filter extra public or private resources for varied industrial developments, those energies had to be directed towards anything that increased the security of the state.

Now if we look at what the country has achieved, and imagine for a moment, that those energies can easily be diverted towards civilian industrial development, the capabilities that exit in Pakistan take on a different meaning. Developing a dual uranium and plutonium nuclear infrastructure is no small feat, it takes enormous capacities and capabilities to do that. It was done when times were different, less advanced, less access to technology.

Countries such as Iran are following a path set by Pakistan, that too only a uranium path. In these times, Education is far more widespread, information readily available, and industrial items are also more readily available, and the material sciences are more developed. We are just living in a different world. When Pakistan did it, it was a lot lot harder. Here accusations usually follow that you stole this and that. That is a hypocritical approach. The world has begged borrowed and stole, to build themselves and develop themselves, throughout history. The Chinese took from the Russians, the Russians from the British and the Americans, and so on. The America nuclear program was a joint British American effort till Americans told the British to F.off, and many important scientists were immigrants.

After the second World War, the Americans and the Soviets went hunting for Nazi scientists, both took around 2000 scientists each. These nations developed because of those scientists. The person who headed the Lunar program that took America to the moon was an ex Nazi scientist. So, I’ve seen hypocrisy is Always active when discussing Pakistan, especially by Pakistanis themselves, because most do not know any better.

Those potential energies were applied by Pakistan to the missile program, development of an armament industry, which right now provides a large portion of Pakistan's domestic needs, that is immense value, a value that is constantly underestimated and unrecognised. But, those step were important, because without security you have no country, without a country what are you? a nomad, a vagabond, a tramp, a lost soul.

In conclusion, Pakistan has unseen active capabilities, those capabilities require a suitable sized economy to flourish, or a suitable environment, for instance, peace, to expand and flourish. I tried to keep this short but I think it has gone on long enough.

Most of Pakistan’s capabilities are not visible, its like the social media discovery of Pakistan, the image they had was totally different to the one they see with their eyes. So, the active capacities and capabilities of Pakistan are a lot more varied and mature then what is visible.

Stay blessed, and keep developing.

@peagle Bhai, I think you have basically expressed what I also feel are strengths of Pakistan, which many in Pakistan and out of it, do not realize.

There are sophisticated industries in Pakistan as well, in addition to small and cottage industry capability and output.

Bangladesh direly lacks the latter, and should make an effort to catch up for diversifying import substitutes, for example with Pakistani economical metal-processing items like lathes and machining centers.

My words exactly.

 

[peagle]

@peagle Bhai, I think you have basically expressed what I also feel are strengths of Pakistan, which many in Pakistan and out of it, do not realize.

There are sophisticated industries in Pakistan as well, in addition to small and cottage industry capability and output.

Bangladesh direly lacks the latter, and should make an effort to catch up for diversifying import substitutes, for example with Pakistani economical metal-processing items like lathes and machining centers.

My words exactly.

I absolutely love your understanding of this topic, and passion which shines through. I have learnt a lot from this thread, in terms of the ground realities I was unaware, and the interpretations of those realities.

With regards to your last comment to bluesky, you keep hitting the nail on the head with your understanding of the topic. I will add regarding two topics, the apprentice support is non existence, it is very much a private sector, individual led affair, the government have only just started waking up and applying the ideas you presented, but historically no government support. They have been busy building the nation, or fighting each other.

I remember reading somewhere, not on pdf, that before our separation the government of Pakistan had approved a nuclear power plant in your part of the world, first was in Karachi, the second was going to be built in your neighbourhood.
I think after initial few missteps, Bangladesh is doing just fine, just could be better on the democratic front. it's not about my likes or dislikes, I just think democratic stability is helpful for a harmonious society. I love Imran khan although I don't support any party, but I hate Imran's hard-core approach because it breeds instability among political actors.

You certainly are right about Pakistanis, dumb as F, they are an extremely intelligent lot, but without the originality in generating ideas or looking at things with a fresh prospective beyond sound bites. I am not sure if you'll understand "bas hum he gunah ghar hein" it means only we are sinful, except in Urdu it is more powerful. There's a tendency to put all the blame on our own heads, without trying to analyse properly. I mean you can still be wrong, but at least try.
I have shockingly found some version of that thinking among Bengali brothers as well, here on pdf, something I wasn't expecting. For instinct on the border shooting issues where only Bengalis seem to get killed, there were some blaming themselves, I told them are you bloody crazy. Well, I suppose there are enough of us around to keep original thinking alive, so bless all the original thinkers.

Back to the topic, I think Pakistan will be reaching out soon, especially if the Begum is willing. In another thread I read an offline comment from you, I forgot which one, but you mentioned how Bangladesh had instituted one stop shop kind of operation long ago, I thought it was bloody beautiful, and certainly something Pakistan can learn from Bangladesh.

 

[Bilal9]

Back to the topic, I think Pakistan will be reaching out soon, especially if the Begum is willing. In another thread I read an offline comment from you, I forgot which one, but you mentioned how Bangladesh had instituted one stop shop kind of operation long ago, I thought it was bloody beautiful, and certainly something Pakistan can learn from Bangladesh.

Yes - there is an autonomous body which takes care of FDI related topics and they do have one stop shop. The central bank has also instituted specialized loan programs for small industries (and their own one-stop shop), though I cannot say how effective they really are. But the structure at least exists. They also arrange investment summits to attract FDI. They held one this last November. Ignore the political propaganda, these AL people have yet to learn that no one outside Bangladesh cares about her political agenda or her daddy psychosis.

One stop services available for investors: https://bidaquickserv.org/articles/available-services

https://bidaevents.gov.bd/

https://www.bb.org.bd/sme/smepolicye.pdf

 

[HRK]

Most owners of tractors in Rural Areas of Pakistan use non-branded spares source from outside of companies Sales, Service & Spare chain for reconstruction of their tractors

Casting Process of Rear Wheel Axle Housing Tube For Tractors in Foundry

Production Process of Heavy Duty Tractor Trailer Hydraulic Jack

 

[peagle]

Most owners of tractors in Rural Areas of Pakistan use non-branded spares source from outside of companies Sales, Service & Spare chain for reconstruction of their tractors

Casting Process of Rear Wheel Axle Housing Tube For Tractors in Foundry

Production Process of Heavy Duty Tractor Trailer Hydraulic Jack

Would you know if this practice exists in most developing nations, or is this something exceptional to Pakistan? or just a minority of countries.

 

[HRK]

Would you know if this practice exists in most developing nations, or is this something exceptional to Pakistan? or just a minority of countries.

Sorry can't comment about other countries .... but as general opinion I would say expecting SME of other countries working in such low scale and resources is difficult for me.

 

[HRK]

Casting Process For Manufacturing Cylinder Liners & Sleeves