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scorpionx

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Hello, friends. It’s been long I have been away from this forum. Since then a lot has been happened in our national and international politics. Unfortunately Kashmir remains on the broil, painfully more than before. The purpose of this thread is to find out a solution of the never ending crisis of Kashmiri militancy which for the last two three years seem to have exploded with a new vigour. No matter how long we, Indians continue to evade this question, this so called once Heaven on Earth remains as a crown of thorns on our head. Although some hawks and ultranationalists attribute this rising unrest to growing Islamic fundamentalism in the valley, time has come for a serious self-introspection and acting upon it.

Why I decided to talk about this is few hours back I watched an Interview with the fathers of two militants, Burhan Wani and Saddam Padder. With absolute calmness and serenity, what the two old men revealed was in fact chilling. When asked about the difference between militancy of the 90’s and militancy of 2016, Mujaffar Wani replied,”Log encounter ki jagah se door bhagte the (in the 90’s), aaj Encounter ki jagah ki tarah bhagte hain”. According to him people no longer are scared by the police. The fear of death from their heart is completely gone. I will come to these two men again later.

As I have already said, hawks will quickly cry growing radicalism for the upsurge in militancy. But for a moment they need to ponder on the fact why increasing numbers of highly educated youths are joining militancy. Is not this enough to ring the bell that something is really going wrong?

By blocking all peaceful means of expressing dissent, what remains is self-defence against the armed forces…the way forward is change in the status quo, where power won’t be exercised for the sake of power

The above was posted on his FB post on 18th April’2018 by Mohammad Rafi Bhat, just month before his death. If some of you are still wondering who he was and why does his fb post matter, Rafi was Assistant Professor of Sociology in the University of Kashmir. All his students describe him as a caring, mild gentleman, intellectual with high scholarship. He always encouraged his students to read and write about Kashmir which according to him was the greatest form of protest. Then why did he decide to pick up guns. The reason lies in his fb post. All peaceful means of protest was lost. The continued killing both of militants by encounter and as well as civilians deeply disturbed him. How Kashmiris are taking the burn of thirty years of militancy, curfews, police picketing, random searches in their houses, how deep these has gone into their psyche: why are we not bringing these questions in national debates in this largest democracy is beyond my comprehension.

As per father of Wani and Padder, excess measures by security forces have reached its peaks and it is not long before even old men start taking up arms against Indian forces. Arrogant, humiliating behaviour which may not raise much hue and cry in rest of India, perhaps is a self shooting idea in Kashmir: our policy makers need to understand this very quickly before it gets out of hand. Faizan, a sixteen year old boy was shot in head, chest, and renal spleen in Pulwama. His doctor father asks a quite simple question: If Indians really think Kashmiris as their own then when they are protesting why police are not shooting according to rules and firing below the knee? In this same video, Faizan’s uncle Muhammad Shareef Poswal also speaks about his nephew. More than what he speaks it was astonishing to see the ambience he kept around him; enlarged pictures of his deceased nephew, both in living and dead. Is it too difficult for us to guess what kind of consequences we are generating by such reckless killings of teenagers?

Before it is too late, let us wake ourselves up. Let us not serve the psychological advantage in a platter to Pakistan it was badly looking for after 26/11. Let us accept that our political stand on Kashmir has been very firm but the way we intend to do it is far from being correct and effective. We cannot afford to act as Israel do with Palestine. Is it too difficult for security forces not to force a local youth to bring cigarettes for them? Is it too difficult for security forces to behave with a smile? Can’t we get rid of this Pellet gun nonsense and think about something else which could be more effective and less harmful? Permanent solution of Kashmir may be distance away, but we, Indians can do these at free of cost. Otherwise what is the use of just having a land when its people are alien to us and we are alien to them?

Please share your views: where exactly we are going wrong and what could be the measures to bring back life into the lives of Kashmiris.

@Joe Shearer @Nilgiri @nair @WAJsal @waz @hellfire Cant remember ur new user ID..
 
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I have a feeling that Imran Khan has a plan on Kashmir.

At least, India will feel some pressure on Kashmir issue.
 
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You wrote 9/11 and then deleted it.

Can you please explain to us the motivation behind the deletion?

Thanks
Because I thought mentioning 9/11 may move the whole discussion into a different direction which is not important in the current context. My primary focus is Kashmir and where Indians are faltering.
 
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Because I thought mentioning 9/11 may move the whole discussion into a different direction which is not important in the current context. My primary focus is Kashmir and where Indians are faltering.

But you did actually write it and took it away after 10 minutes.

Honestly speaking that 26/11 is enough to move the discussion to a different direction.

As far as Kashmir is concerned. Ordinary Indians are now getting somewhat aware but Kashmiris have been fighting you ever since 1947. Each generation has its own batch of freedom fighters and none can be swayed by the promise of economic growth or financial sovereignty.
 
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@Vibrio

Hello, friends. It’s been long I have been away from this forum. Since then a lot has been happened in our national and international politics. Unfortunately Kashmir remains on the broil, painfully more than before. The purpose of this thread is to find out a solution of the never ending crisis of Kashmiri militancy which for the last two three years seem to have exploded with a new vigour. No matter how long we, Indians continue to evade this question, this so called once Heaven on Earth remains as a crown of thorns on our head. Although some hawks and ultranationalists attribute this rising unrest to growing Islamic fundamentalism in the valley, time has come for a serious self-introspection and acting upon it.

Why I decided to talk about this is few hours back I watched an Interview with the fathers of two militants, Burhan Wani and Saddam Padder. With absolute calmness and serenity, what the two old men revealed was in fact chilling. When asked about the difference between militancy of the 90’s and militancy of 2016, Mujaffar Wani replied,”Log encounter ki jagah se door bhagte the (in the 90’s), aaj Encounter ki jagah ki tarah bhagte hain”. According to him people no longer are scared by the police. The fear of death from their heart is completely gone. I will come to these two men again later.

As I have already said, hawks will quickly cry growing radicalism for the upsurge in militancy. But for a moment they need to ponder on the fact why increasing numbers of highly educated youths are joining militancy. Is not this enough to ring the bell that something is really going wrong?

By blocking all peaceful means of expressing dissent, what remains is self-defence against the armed forces…the way forward is change in the status quo, where power won’t be exercised for the sake of power

The above was posted on his FB post on 18th April’2018 by Mohammad Rafi Bhat, just month before his death. If some of you are still wondering who he was and why does his fb post matter, Rafi was Assistant Professor of Sociology in the University of Kashmir. All his students describe him as a caring, mild gentleman, intellectual with high scholarship. He always encouraged his students to read and write about Kashmir which according to him was the greatest form of protest. Then why did he decide to pick up guns. The reason lies in his fb post. All peaceful means of protest was lost. The continued killing both of militants by encounter and as well as civilians deeply disturbed him. How Kashmiris are taking the burn of thirty years of militancy, curfews, police picketing, random searches in their houses, how deep these has gone into their psyche: why are we not bringing these questions in national debates in this largest democracy is beyond my comprehension.

As per father of Wani and Padder, excess measures by security forces have reached its peaks and it is not long before even old men start taking up arms against Indian forces. Arrogant, humiliating behaviour which may not raise much hue and cry in rest of India, perhaps is a self shooting idea in Kashmir: our policy makers need to understand this very quickly before it gets out of hand. Faizan, a sixteen year old boy was shot in head, chest, and renal spleen in Pulwama. His doctor father asks a quite simple question: If Indians really think Kashmiris as their own then when they are protesting why police are not shooting according to rules and firing below the knee? In this same video, Faizan’s uncle Muhammad Shareef Poswal also speaks about his nephew. More than what he speaks it was astonishing to see the ambience he kept around him; enlarged pictures of his deceased nephew, both in living and dead. Is it too difficult for us to guess what kind of consequences we are generating by such reckless killings of teenagers?

Before it is too late, let us wake ourselves up. Let us not serve the psychological advantage in a platter to Pakistan it was badly looking for after 26/11. Let us accept that our political stand on Kashmir has been very firm but the way we intend to do it is far from being correct and effective. We cannot afford to act as Israel do with Palestine. Is it too difficult for security forces not to force a local youth to bring cigarettes for them? Is it too difficult for security forces to behave with a smile? Can’t we get rid of this Pellet gun nonsense and think about something else which could be more effective and less harmful? Permanent solution of Kashmir may be distance away, but we, Indians can do these at free of cost. Otherwise what is the use of just having a land when its people are alien to us and we are alien to them?

Please share your views: where exactly we are going wrong and what could be the measures to bring back life into the lives of Kashmiris.

@Joe Shearer @Nilgiri @nair @WAJsal @waz @hellfire Cant remember ur new user ID..
 
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Please share your views: where exactly we are going wrong and what could be the measures to bring back life into the lives of Kashmiris.

Answer lies in what the situation is with Indian muslims in India more broadly (given they have overall preserved strong identity yet found an overall balance with coexistence in Indian nation)....what do they have access to that Kashmiri (esp valley) muslims don't? Basically its distance from Pakistan, lack of contention/dispute with Pakistan over them and more available economic development/integration on more national basis. Do i necessarily like all these reasons? No...but its the result of something so incisive happening that was not resolved...and smouldered and festered combined with stuff you cannot change (geogpraphy etc).

Yes we must sympathise with those suffering from large+intrusive deployment of security forces (brought about by number of reasons, but one big one which is bone of major contention of this forum and thus is pretty pointless to try discuss). But I also much sympathise with security forces too...it is not an easy task for them and some of them are going to snap and do awful things in heat of the moment. The key is to isolate these bad apples and introduce more strict discipline rather than resort to us vs them narrative. Maybe introduction of body cams (esp in sensitive areas of valley) among them will help with this, so corrective actions can be taken early on rather than after some bad escalation (and trying to fix that or suppress that or double down on it etc...leading to more festering). Body cams have helped with police forces here (esp in known violent troubles spots) in north america immensely...both for evidence chains and also for delineating bad apples in security forces too.

Just my 2 cents. @VCheng

BTW Hellfire is now @Vibrio (if you look at the current aadhar thread in central+south asia general forum), but he told me he will be away for a bit, he's busy with a few things at the moment etc.
 
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Please share your views: where exactly we are going wrong and what could be the measures to bring back life into the lives of Kashmiris.

Just my 2 cents. @VCheng

This is again one of those interesting topics where it would be better for my health on PDF if I were to remain quiet. I will still follow the thread, of course. :D
 
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Hello, friends. It’s been long I have been away from this forum. Since then a lot has been happened in our national and international politics. Unfortunately Kashmir remains on the broil, painfully more than before. The purpose of this thread is to find out a solution of the never ending crisis of Kashmiri militancy which for the last two three years seem to have exploded with a new vigour. No matter how long we, Indians continue to evade this question, this so called once Heaven on Earth remains as a crown of thorns on our head. Although some hawks and ultranationalists attribute this rising unrest to growing Islamic fundamentalism in the valley, time has come for a serious self-introspection and acting upon it.

Why I decided to talk about this is few hours back I watched an Interview with the fathers of two militants, Burhan Wani and Saddam Padder. With absolute calmness and serenity, what the two old men revealed was in fact chilling. When asked about the difference between militancy of the 90’s and militancy of 2016, Mujaffar Wani replied,”Log encounter ki jagah se door bhagte the (in the 90’s), aaj Encounter ki jagah ki tarah bhagte hain”. According to him people no longer are scared by the police. The fear of death from their heart is completely gone. I will come to these two men again later.

As I have already said, hawks will quickly cry growing radicalism for the upsurge in militancy. But for a moment they need to ponder on the fact why increasing numbers of highly educated youths are joining militancy. Is not this enough to ring the bell that something is really going wrong?

By blocking all peaceful means of expressing dissent, what remains is self-defence against the armed forces…the way forward is change in the status quo, where power won’t be exercised for the sake of power

The above was posted on his FB post on 18th April’2018 by Mohammad Rafi Bhat, just month before his death. If some of you are still wondering who he was and why does his fb post matter, Rafi was Assistant Professor of Sociology in the University of Kashmir. All his students describe him as a caring, mild gentleman, intellectual with high scholarship. He always encouraged his students to read and write about Kashmir which according to him was the greatest form of protest. Then why did he decide to pick up guns. The reason lies in his fb post. All peaceful means of protest was lost. The continued killing both of militants by encounter and as well as civilians deeply disturbed him. How Kashmiris are taking the burn of thirty years of militancy, curfews, police picketing, random searches in their houses, how deep these has gone into their psyche: why are we not bringing these questions in national debates in this largest democracy is beyond my comprehension.

As per father of Wani and Padder, excess measures by security forces have reached its peaks and it is not long before even old men start taking up arms against Indian forces. Arrogant, humiliating behaviour which may not raise much hue and cry in rest of India, perhaps is a self shooting idea in Kashmir: our policy makers need to understand this very quickly before it gets out of hand. Faizan, a sixteen year old boy was shot in head, chest, and renal spleen in Pulwama. His doctor father asks a quite simple question: If Indians really think Kashmiris as their own then when they are protesting why police are not shooting according to rules and firing below the knee? In this same video, Faizan’s uncle Muhammad Shareef Poswal also speaks about his nephew. More than what he speaks it was astonishing to see the ambience he kept around him; enlarged pictures of his deceased nephew, both in living and dead. Is it too difficult for us to guess what kind of consequences we are generating by such reckless killings of teenagers?

Before it is too late, let us wake ourselves up. Let us not serve the psychological advantage in a platter to Pakistan it was badly looking for after 26/11. Let us accept that our political stand on Kashmir has been very firm but the way we intend to do it is far from being correct and effective. We cannot afford to act as Israel do with Palestine. Is it too difficult for security forces not to force a local youth to bring cigarettes for them? Is it too difficult for security forces to behave with a smile? Can’t we get rid of this Pellet gun nonsense and think about something else which could be more effective and less harmful? Permanent solution of Kashmir may be distance away, but we, Indians can do these at free of cost. Otherwise what is the use of just having a land when its people are alien to us and we are alien to them?

Please share your views: where exactly we are going wrong and what could be the measures to bring back life into the lives of Kashmiris.

@Joe Shearer @Nilgiri @nair @WAJsal @waz @hellfire Cant remember ur new user ID..


Welcome back my dear friend.
In terms of confidence building measures a reduction in force numbers will be a start and less intrusive search operations. I like the idea of a more friendly face i.e. helping local Kashmiris and so on and of course getting rid of harsh counter measures during demos e.g. the pellet guns.

I'll be honest there really can only be one solution i.e. finish off the business of partition or hold a free vote, yes that also includes my ancestral land of AJK.
Partition would be all of Kashmir going to Pakistan, but would Ladakh and Jammu accept this, not at all.
A free vote should be held with a simple join Pakistan or join India, as neither will accept independence of Kashmir, and a landlocked state with ethnic strife will simply divide again. The vote would see AJK, The Northern Areas and the Valley would want to go with Pakistan, but again you will have the issue of Jammu and Ladakh, who would want to remain with India, so in theory it could be split along these lines.
But then you can just keep things as they are and both countries accept the LOC as the IB and shake hands, but then Kashmir I feel is lost forever now with generation after generation against India now, and Pakistanis still see Kashmir as their land and its people as part of them. Indians on the whole feel the same and believe Kashmir has ancient ties to the Hindu faith and too much time, blood etc has been spent to give it up to Pakistan.

In simple terms a solution is far, far away.
 
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Hands need to go back in gloves . Gloves off policy is never good against civvies . Also the current Army Chief of India is extremely chattery ( probably emboldened by the political support) .

Having a far right govt in India has not helped the cause of kashmir either .

For me the biggest giveaway was resignation of IPS exam topper Shah Faesal . He inspired generations of kashmiri kids to sit in IPS exam and clear it. If people like him whose parents were killed by terrorists find hard to work within Indian Government we need to take a hard and long look at ourselves.

LOC will become IB make no mistakes but India has been too focused to Win Kashmir . India should focus on winning Kashmiris over instead . Jammu, Leh and Ladakh are fine.
 
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But you did actually write it and took it away after 10 minutes.

Honestly speaking that 26/11 is enough to move the discussion to a different direction.

As far as Kashmir is concerned. Ordinary Indians are now getting somewhat aware but Kashmiris have been fighting you ever since 1947. Each generation has its own batch of freedom fighters and none can be swayed by the promise of economic growth or financial sovereignty.
Kashmiris have been fighting ever since the Sikhs took control.
 
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But you did actually write it and took it away after 10 minutes.

Honestly speaking that 26/11 is enough to move the discussion to a different direction.

As far as Kashmir is concerned. Ordinary Indians are now getting somewhat aware but Kashmiris have been fighting you ever since 1947. Each generation has its own batch of freedom fighters and none can be swayed by the promise of economic growth or financial sovereignty.
Yes, it might. But removing one lessens the possibility by 50%.
No. Actually ordinary Indians simply do not care what is going in Kashmir. No public debate, discussion or slightest interest among general public except the popular acceptance that it is an integral part of India no matter what methodology and policy we are implementing there. My apprehension is if we do not take appropriate measure right now, things might snowball into much worse for us in the time to come.

Welcome back my dear friend.
In terms of confidence building measures a reduction in force numbers will be a start and less intrusive search operations. I like the idea of a more friendly face i.e. helping local Kashmiris and so on and of course getting rid of harsh counter measures during demos e.g. the pellet guns.

I'll be honest there really can only be one solution i.e. finish off the business of partition or hold a free vote, yes that also includes my ancestral land of AJK.
Partition would be all of Kashmir going to Pakistan, but would Ladakh and Jammu accept this, not at all.
A free vote should be held with a simple join Pakistan or join India, as neither will accept independence of Kashmir, and a landlocked state with ethnic strife will simply divide again. The vote would see AJK, The Northern Areas and the Valley would want to go with Pakistan, but again you will have the issue of Jammu and Ladakh, who would want to remain with India, so in theory it could be split along these lines.
But then you can just keep things as they are and both countries accept the LOC as the IB and shake hands, but then Kashmir I feel is lost forever now with generation after generation against India now, and Pakistanis still see Kashmir as their land and its people as part of them. Indians on the whole feel the same and believe Kashmir has ancient ties to their the Hindu faith and too much time, blood etc has been spent to give it up to Pakistan.

In simple terms a solution is far, far away.
Waj bhai, thank you for your valuable inputs. Unfortunately, the way geopolitics have taken turn over the last 50 years referendum is out of question as of now, unless something cataclysmic imbalance of power happens in the region. So, as you stated about making LOC as IB, even if the two countries publicly hesitate to make it formal it would have been more wise to respect ceasefire across the border, if not completely demilitarize the entire region. Sadly, problem with India and Pakistan is both behave like a naïve, egoistic couple: both demand respect from the other but neither is ready to give it to the other. Both countries, if really sincere can do a lot. But neither care for the ordinary Kashmiris.
 
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Hello, friends. It’s been long I have been away from this forum. Since then a lot has been happened in our national and international politics. Unfortunately Kashmir remains on the broil, painfully more than before. The purpose of this thread is to find out a solution of the never ending crisis of Kashmiri militancy which for the last two three years seem to have exploded with a new vigour. No matter how long we, Indians continue to evade this question, this so called once Heaven on Earth remains as a crown of thorns on our head. Although some hawks and ultranationalists attribute this rising unrest to growing Islamic fundamentalism in the valley, time has come for a serious self-introspection and acting upon it.

Why I decided to talk about this is few hours back I watched an Interview with the fathers of two militants, Burhan Wani and Saddam Padder. With absolute calmness and serenity, what the two old men revealed was in fact chilling. When asked about the difference between militancy of the 90’s and militancy of 2016, Mujaffar Wani replied,”Log encounter ki jagah se door bhagte the (in the 90’s), aaj Encounter ki jagah ki tarah bhagte hain”. According to him people no longer are scared by the police. The fear of death from their heart is completely gone. I will come to these two men again later.

As I have already said, hawks will quickly cry growing radicalism for the upsurge in militancy. But for a moment they need to ponder on the fact why increasing numbers of highly educated youths are joining militancy. Is not this enough to ring the bell that something is really going wrong?

By blocking all peaceful means of expressing dissent, what remains is self-defence against the armed forces…the way forward is change in the status quo, where power won’t be exercised for the sake of power

The above was posted on his FB post on 18th April’2018 by Mohammad Rafi Bhat, just month before his death. If some of you are still wondering who he was and why does his fb post matter, Rafi was Assistant Professor of Sociology in the University of Kashmir. All his students describe him as a caring, mild gentleman, intellectual with high scholarship. He always encouraged his students to read and write about Kashmir which according to him was the greatest form of protest. Then why did he decide to pick up guns. The reason lies in his fb post. All peaceful means of protest was lost. The continued killing both of militants by encounter and as well as civilians deeply disturbed him. How Kashmiris are taking the burn of thirty years of militancy, curfews, police picketing, random searches in their houses, how deep these has gone into their psyche: why are we not bringing these questions in national debates in this largest democracy is beyond my comprehension.

As per father of Wani and Padder, excess measures by security forces have reached its peaks and it is not long before even old men start taking up arms against Indian forces. Arrogant, humiliating behaviour which may not raise much hue and cry in rest of India, perhaps is a self shooting idea in Kashmir: our policy makers need to understand this very quickly before it gets out of hand. Faizan, a sixteen year old boy was shot in head, chest, and renal spleen in Pulwama. His doctor father asks a quite simple question: If Indians really think Kashmiris as their own then when they are protesting why police are not shooting according to rules and firing below the knee? In this same video, Faizan’s uncle Muhammad Shareef Poswal also speaks about his nephew. More than what he speaks it was astonishing to see the ambience he kept around him; enlarged pictures of his deceased nephew, both in living and dead. Is it too difficult for us to guess what kind of consequences we are generating by such reckless killings of teenagers?

Before it is too late, let us wake ourselves up. Let us not serve the psychological advantage in a platter to Pakistan it was badly looking for after 26/11. Let us accept that our political stand on Kashmir has been very firm but the way we intend to do it is far from being correct and effective. We cannot afford to act as Israel do with Palestine. Is it too difficult for security forces not to force a local youth to bring cigarettes for them? Is it too difficult for security forces to behave with a smile? Can’t we get rid of this Pellet gun nonsense and think about something else which could be more effective and less harmful? Permanent solution of Kashmir may be distance away, but we, Indians can do these at free of cost. Otherwise what is the use of just having a land when its people are alien to us and we are alien to them?

Please share your views: where exactly we are going wrong and what could be the measures to bring back life into the lives of Kashmiris.

@Joe Shearer @Nilgiri @nair @WAJsal @waz @hellfire Cant remember ur new user ID..

You can not solve any problem until you recognize the root cause. The root cause of Kashmir Issue lies in caliphate, Sharia and Darul Islam. You guys can lecture as much as you can and discuss the issue without recognizing the root cause. You are never going to get any solution. First of all recognize that it is a problem of Islamic radicalization and then start discussion only then there is a possibility that you may get a solution. Kashmir problem is just a manifestation of whatever is happening across the world and in Muslim majority countries.
 
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You can not solve any problem until you recognize the root cause. The root cause of Kashmir Issue lies in caliphate, Sharia and Darul Islam. You guys can lecture as much as you can and discuss the issue without recognizing the root cause. You are never going to get any solution. First of all recognize that it is a problem of Islamic radicalization and then start discussion only then there is a possibility that you may get a solution. Kashmir problem is just a manifestation of whatever is happening across the world and in Muslim majority countries.
Islamic radicalization might have played its part as well, no body would deny. But it does not mitigate the fact that harshness, unsympathetic attitude towards the feelings of ordinary Kashmiris have played their parts as well. An youth of 18/19 might get radicalized, but why a 60 year old man or a PhD holder?

Hands need to go back in gloves . Gloves off policy is never good against civvies . Also the current Army Chief of India is extremely chattery ( probably emboldened by the political support) .

Having a far right govt in India has not helped the cause of kashmir either .

For me the biggest giveaway was resignation of IPS exam topper Shah Faesal . He inspired generations of kashmiri kids to sit in IPS exam and clear it. If people like him whose parents were killed by terrorists find hard to work within Indian Government we need to take a hard and long look at ourselves.

LOC will become IB make no mistakes but India has been too focused to Win Kashmir . India should focus on winning Kashmiris over instead . Jammu, Leh and Ladakh are fine.
I am glad you mentioned about Shah Faesal. He is another gloomy example that whatever we are doing in Kashmir is not going to help in the long run.
 
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Kashmir is not the priority it is as simple as that. General feeling in capital is let the fire fade away with time and blood and time is in our side.

Islamic radicalization might have played its part as well, no body would deny. But it does not mitigate the fact that harshness, unsympathetic attitude towards the feelings of ordinary Kashmiris have played their parts as well. An youth of 18/19 might get radicalized, but why a 60 year old man or a PhD holder?


I am glad you mentioned about Shah Faesal. He is another gloomy example that whatever we are doing in Kashmir is not going to help in the long run.
Sir too much money spent on that place with no economic benefit so it's a waste of time and capital so lets try to develop North-east.
 
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