Is it Agni-1 Prime?

[amardeep mishra]

Hi! Folks!
Randomly sifting through internet after ASAT tests, I ran into these pics. This missile seems a bit bigger for Agni-1*. It is also not the ASAT weapon that was tested recently- kindly compare both the stages and it'll become apparent that it is very different from the ASAT that was tested recently. The first stage seems to have a dia of 1.4-1.5m and full composite motor. There are no external control surfaces. which means it has thrust vectoring throughout.

It is also not the SLBM and too small for Agni-6. Agni-6 is supposed to have a 2m dia composite rocket. I wonder when will they test K-5 SLBM. As of now, that missile has attained the maximum priority in Indian strategic weapons development bypassing the Agni series. This particular weapon seems to be Pakistan specific and might have a range of 1000-1200km and will be canisterized thereby providing quick firing at a very short notice. I remember watching one seminar wherein DG DRDO clearly said they want to upgrade Agni-1 to make it more advanced and add features like higher Isp propellant, full composites, canisterization etc.
@The Deterrent
@Joe Shearer
@Nilgiri

 

[The Deterrent]

Hi! Folks!
Randomly sifting through internet after ASAT tests, I ran into these pics. This missile seems a bit bigger for Agni-1*. It is also not the ASAT weapon that was tested recently- kindly compare both the stages and it'll become apparent that it is very different from the ASAT that was tested recently. The first stage seems to have a dia of 1.4-1.5m and full composite motor. There are no external control surfaces. which means it has thrust vectoring throughout.
View attachment 550168
It is also not the SLBM and too small for Agni-6. Agni-6 is supposed to have a 2m dia composite rocket. I wonder when will they test K-5 SLBM. As of now, that missile has attained the maximum priority in Indian strategic weapons development bypassing the Agni series. This particular weapon seems to be Pakistan specific and might have a range of 1000-1200km and will be canisterized thereby providing quick firing at a very short notice. I remember watching one seminar wherein DG DRDO clearly said they want to upgrade Agni-1 to make it more advanced and add features like higher Isp propellant, full composites, canisterization etc.
@The Deterrent
@Joe Shearer
@Nilgiri

I'm not sure. The interstage design is extremely odd and make-shift. My gut feeling says that its a mock-up for the PDV Mk-II, to validate the TEL.
On the other hand some details on the body are too detailed for a mock-up, and the length doesn't match to that of PDV Mk-II. This may be a a completely new Pakistan-specific system, but most probably not the Agni-IP. Agni-IP would have similar dimensions to Agni-I, at least the booster.

On a side-note, considering our previous discussion, why would India need more robust and precise alternatives to Agni-I, which works perfectly fine as a strategic weapon?
Hint: Counter-Force strike capability.

 

[God Parshuram]

Hi! Folks!
Randomly sifting through internet after ASAT tests, I ran into these pics. This missile seems a bit bigger for Agni-1*. It is also not the ASAT weapon that was tested recently- kindly compare both the stages and it'll become apparent that it is very different from the ASAT that was tested recently. The first stage seems to have a dia of 1.4-1.5m and full composite motor. There are no external control surfaces. which means it has thrust vectoring throughout.
View attachment 550168
It is also not the SLBM and too small for Agni-6. Agni-6 is supposed to have a 2m dia composite rocket. I wonder when will they test K-5 SLBM. As of now, that missile has attained the maximum priority in Indian strategic weapons development bypassing the Agni series. This particular weapon seems to be Pakistan specific and might have a range of 1000-1200km and will be canisterized thereby providing quick firing at a very short notice. I remember watching one seminar wherein DG DRDO clearly said they want to upgrade Agni-1 to make it more advanced and add features like higher Isp propellant, full composites, canisterization etc.
@The Deterrent
@Joe Shearer
@Nilgiri

Agni 1 is a single stage missile. This one seem to be a two stage. It looks like India's ASW.

 

[HRK]

Hint: Counter-Force strike capability

plz explain why Agni-I would not be used as Counter force strike weapon and for this purpose a new system would be required .....

 

[The Deterrent]

plz explain why Agni-I would not be used as Counter force strike weapon and for this purpose a new system would be required .....

Keep in mind that Pakistani strategic nuclear weapons are mobile, and are likely to be fully assembled and on standby as escalation levels approach to the equivalent of a US DEFCON-1.

Counter-force targeting requires rapid launch and precise targeting capability. Both Pakistan's and India's CURRENT nuclear arsenals (excluding Agni-V) are incapable of doing so, requiring lengthy launch prep and not good enough CEP. This means that the adversary will be able to rapidly reposition its mobile assets if launch prep is detected. Secondly, the high CEP means that the impact will probably not hit the adversary's TELs, despite being armed with a nuclear warhead.

Agni-I lacks both rapid launch capability and precise targeting. Unless Pakistani weapons are still stored in their secured locations by the time Indian SFC initiates launches, Agni-I launches are unlikely to cause major damage to Pakistan's nuclear weapons.

 

[amardeep mishra]

I'm not sure. The interstage design is extremely odd and make-shift. My gut feeling says that its a mock-up for the PDV Mk-II, to validate the TEL.
On the other hand some details on the body are too detailed for a mock-up, and the length doesn't match to that of PDV Mk-II. This may be a a completely new Pakistan-specific system, but most probably not the Agni-IP. Agni-IP would have similar dimensions to Agni-I, at least the booster.

On a side-note, considering our previous discussion, why would India need more robust and precise alternatives to Agni-I, which works perfectly fine as a strategic weapon?
Hint: Counter-Force strike capability.

Hi @The Deterrent
Yes, thats why even I am unsure of the real designation of this system. Have not attended any DRDO organized seminars for past 4-5 years. SLBM is definitely ruled out, it cant have two stages with two different diameters. Agni-1P is also ruled out as the missile in question is a 2stage system. What is certain- based on a lot of seminars that I did attend some time back- is that it is indeed Pakistan specific. I dont know if the technology they were working on for instance canisterization, higher Isp propellants, composites etc is purely for missile upgradation or a change in nuclear posture has quietly happened! Of late I have seen this trend, there is a trickling down effect for technologies developed for ICBM class of missiles finding their way to Pakistan specific A-1 and A-2. DRDO, in my personal assessment has gone through 3 distinct levels of missile design and development (I am limiting it to strategic systems only and not including the tactical ones).
(1) The first one was described by early attempts at strategic missiles viz the A-1 and A-2. These systems include the technology of 80s and 90s.
(2) The second stage was when they materalized the A-3 with a 2m diameter along with a host of other improvements like thermal skirts, thrust vectoring, no external control surfaces etc.
(3) The third stage entails the development of A-4 and A-5 strategic systems with efficient propellants, composites, miniaturized electronics etc. There can also be a 4th stage that they are working on- things like very high Isp propellants, aerospikes, compact motors to fit alongside the RV etc. The 4th stage comprises of systems like K-5 and Agni-6.
There was definitely a talk to incorporate some of stage 3 technologies in A-1 and A-2. This will enable the IA to undertake quick strike in Pakistan at a very very short notice. The advent of canisters have dropped the prep time to less than 10mins- this figure is significantly better than their Pakistani counterparts. As a foot note, I feel that the Pakistani strategic missile design and development is perhaps at #1 or has probably just crossed the threshold of #1. They still do not have anything other than standard 1.4m dia motor. Kindly correct me if you feel I am wrong. I just go by credible verifiable evidences.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Keep in mind that Pakistani strategic nuclear weapons are mobile, and are likely to be fully assembled and on standby as escalation levels approach to the equivalent of a US DEFCON-1.

Counter-force targeting requires rapid launch and precise targeting capability. Both Pakistan's and India's CURRENT nuclear arsenals (excluding Agni-V) are incapable of doing so, requiring lengthy launch prep and not good enough CEP. This means that the adversary will be able to rapidly reposition its mobile assets if launch prep is detected. Secondly, the high CEP means that the impact will probably not hit the adversary's TELs, despite being armed with a nuclear warhead.

Agni-I lacks both rapid launch capability and precise targeting. Unless Pakistani weapons are still stored in their secured locations by the time Indian SFC initiates launches, Agni-I launches are unlikely to cause major damage to Pakistan's nuclear weapons.

Hi @The Deterrent
Yes, thats why even I am unsure of the real designation of this system. Have not attended any DRDO organized seminars for past 4-5 years. SLBM is definitely ruled out, it cant have two stages with two different diameters. Agni-1P is also ruled out as the missile in question is a 2stage system. What is certain- based on a lot of seminars that I did attend some time back- is that it is indeed Pakistan specific. I dont know if the technology they were working on for instance canisterization, higher Isp propellants, composites etc is purely for missile upgradation or a change in nuclear posture has quietly happened! Of late I have seen this trend, there is a trickling down effect for technologies developed for ICBM class of missiles finding their way to Pakistan specific A-1 and A-2. DRDO, in my personal assessment has gone through 3 distinct levels of missile design and development (I am limiting it to strategic systems only and not including the tactical ones).
(1) The first one was described by early attempts at strategic missiles viz the A-1 and A-2. These systems include the technology of 80s and 90s.
(2) The second stage was when they materalized the A-3 with a 2m diameter along with a host of other improvements like thermal skirts, thrust vectoring, no external control surfaces etc.
(3) The third stage entails the development of A-4 and A-5 strategic systems with efficient propellants, composites, miniaturized electronics etc. There can also be a 4th stage that they are working on- things like very high Isp propellants, aerospikes, compact motors to fit alongside the RV etc. The 4th stage comprises of systems like K-5 and Agni-6.
There was definitely a talk to incorporate some of stage 3 technologies in A-1 and A-2. This will enable the IA to undertake quick strike in Pakistan at a very very short notice. The advent of canisters have dropped the prep time to less than 10mins- this figure is significantly better than their Pakistani counterparts. As a foot note, I feel that the Pakistani strategic missile design and development is perhaps at #1 or has probably just crossed the threshold of #1. They still do not have anything other than standard 1.4m dia motor. Kindly correct me if you feel I am wrong. I just go by credible verifiable evidences.

@amardeep mishra

@The Deterrent is a treasure, and you were right to mark him for his comments.

I believe that there is a concerted effort to achieve rapid launch capability across the board. Liquid propellants are on the way out where this is concerned.

 

[amardeep mishra]

requiring lengthy launch prep and not good enough CEP. This means that the adversary will be able to rapidly reposition its mobile assets if launch prep is detected. Secondly, the high CEP means that the impact will probably not hit the adversary's TELs, despite being armed with a nuclear warhead.

Hi @The Deterrent
I'd like to point out that Agni-4 also has very high CEP for a 4000km range missile. Both A4 and A5 are very similar in terms of technology.

is a treasure, and you were right to mark him for his comments.

Definitely I must confess his general knowledge of some of these systems is very good. Much better than any ithe Pakistani. In fact he'd know a lot about our own strategic systems than many Indians Sometimes it gives an impression that he might be a research student. I'm myself a research student, I was deeply interested in these things since perhaps my 6th standards. I started watching this forum right after my JEE exams and continued through my undergrads at NIT trichy-became a member when I was still in my 2nd year.

 

[God Parshuram]

Keep in mind that Pakistani strategic nuclear weapons are mobile, and are likely to be fully assembled and on standby as escalation levels approach to the equivalent of a US DEFCON-1.

Counter-force targeting requires rapid launch and precise targeting capability. Both Pakistan's and India's CURRENT nuclear arsenals (excluding Agni-V) are incapable of doing so, requiring lengthy launch prep and not good enough CEP. This means that the adversary will be able to rapidly reposition its mobile assets if launch prep is detected. Secondly, the high CEP means that the impact will probably not hit the adversary's TELs, despite being armed with a nuclear warhead.

Agni-I lacks both rapid launch capability and precise targeting. Unless Pakistani weapons are still stored in their secured locations by the time Indian SFC initiates launches, Agni-I launches are unlikely to cause major damage to Pakistan's nuclear weapons.

Agni 1 is no more in production. It is only Agni 1 P now. Agni 1 P is a highly accurate missile with thrust victor control and one of the most accurate missile of its kind existing anywhere in the world.

 

[The Deterrent]

Agni 1 is no more in production. It is only Agni 1 P now. Agni 1 P is a highly accurate missile with thrust victor control and one of the most accurate missile of its kind existing anywhere in the world.

Agni-I might not be in production anymore, but we haven't seen Agni-IP anywhere yet (correct me if I'm wrong).

Regarding the use of superlative adjectives, I take them with a proportional load of rock salt.

 

[KapitaanAli]

It's likely to be TATA's workshop and they're just using a mock up without considerations to parts that don't matter to the launcher dimensions.

 

[God Parshuram]

Agni-I might not be in production anymore, but we haven't seen Agni-IP anywhere yet (correct me if I'm wrong).

Regarding the use of superlative adjectives, I take them with a proportional load of rock salt.

I have seen the photos of Agni 1. They are finless cylinderical shamed motor with cone shaped front part. From Agni IV onwards, Indian missiles have rudendency of guidence system and they have complimentary guidence system to improve accuracy. These guidence system is now going into each and every new missile. Since Agni one P came after Agni 4, all technologies of Agni 4 such as composite Motors, complementary guidance systems has gone into Agni 1p. It makes it highly accurate with low two digit accuracy.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Agni-I might not be in production anymore, but we haven't seen Agni-IP anywhere yet (correct me if I'm wrong).

Hi
Agni 1 might not be in production but Agni 1P hasn't been revealed either- at least till now. What we are seeing here might be either Agni 1P or Agni2. But one thing is certain the modernization drive to introduce some of the technology viz the canisters etc reduce the prep time considerably and MEMS based FOGS improve the CEP tremendously-so much so that it can be used to effectively take out adversaries nuclear potential in a short span of time. Whenever i closely observe Pakistani startegic missiles, one thing that I find amusing is that they didn't they go beyond 1.4m 'space bridge' or SpaB rocket motors. It also seems as if Pakistan never really worked on the nozzles to improve the divergence losses. The truss structure tells a similar tale as well. Ababeel is a decent improvement over let's say Shaheen but it too uses the same old 1.4m SpaB. For some reason Pakistani designers can't get rid of external fins that provide stability. The pitch and yaw control is through the vanes. Designing a thrust vectoring nozzle to control the rocket throughout is much more complex than the vanes. The nozzle is actuated by very sensitive servo mechanism that not only has to control the orientation of the missile but also provide artificial stability in absence of external fins

 

[God Parshuram]

Hi
Agni 1 might not be in production but Agni 1P hasn't been revealed either- at least till now. What we are seeing here might be either Agni 1P or Agni2. But one thing is certain the modernization drive to introduce some of the technology viz the canisters etc reduce the prep time considerably and MEMS based FOGS improve the CEP tremendously-so much so that it can be used to effectively take out adversaries nuclear potential in a short span of time. Whenever i closely observe Pakistani startegic missiles, one thing that I find amusing is that they didn't they go beyond 1.4m 'space bridge' or SpaB rocket motors. It also seems as if Pakistan never really worked on the nozzles to improve the divergence losses. The truss structure tells a similar tale as well. Ababeel is a decent improvement over let's say Shaheen but it too uses the same old 1.4m SpaB. For some reason Pakistani designers can't get rid of external fins that provide stability. The pitch and yaw control is through the vanes. Designing a thrust vectoring nozzle to control the rocket throughout is much more complex than the vanes. The nozzle is actuated by very sensitive servo mechanism that not only has to control the orientation of the missile but also provide artificial stability in absence of external fins

May be a glide vehicle with short range.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Agni-I might not be in production anymore, but we haven't seen Agni-IP anywhere yet (correct me if I'm wrong).

Regarding the use of superlative adjectives, I take them with a proportional load of rock salt.

Shut up and learn to take a compliment gracefully. Drama queen.

How come there is suddenly an interesting discussion with no warning? Who is this new person @God Parshuram? And since when did Parashuram become God? @KapitaanAli we know and respect. Good reading this thread.