Is India one people?

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

What are you talking about? I never framed India's legacy through a religious lens. But I know a guy who did.. Moji or Moody....something like that. The name escapes me.

LoL we are also not framing it in a religious lens...we are talking of culture...You can be an atheist and a Hindu...like I am....

 

[masterchief_mirza]

LoL we are also not framing it in a religious lens...we are talking of culture...You can be an atheist and a Hindu...like I am....

Good, so please allow wine drinking, womanising, non-pious mughals and their descendants their rightful position in the uppermost echelons of Indian history and modern society. Permit their history and legacy to be revered as a "non-religious" golden age for Hindustan, far more productive than the gold hoarding Hindu atheists who came before.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Good, so please allow wine drinking, womanising, non-pious mughals and their descendants their rightful position in the uppermost echelons of Indian history and modern society. Permit their history and legacy to be revered as a "non-religious" golden age for Hindustan, far more productive than the gold hoarding Hindu atheists who came before.

LOL there is no official narrative...different schoolboards teach different history...of course the history books in Meghalaya would not be ranting on and on regarding what was happening in Delhi


Edit: forgot to write not

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Fact of the matter remains that the Rig Veda was composed within the borders of present-day India

My feeling is it was composed in Pakistan Punjab region and Indian agenda has conveniently slid to few miles east. Do you have any sources to knock out by supposition. I am open to this idea so if you provide sources.

I don't have any evidence for my supposition. Only that Indians demonstrate a pattern. They will always slide things from the Indus region into -

• India if there is anything on the east bank of Indus
• Afghanistan if there is anything west of the Indus
• leaving a blindspot where it says 'Pakistan'

Clearly this is driven by a agenda. So I believe this formula will have distorted the understanding of Rid Veda. Like I said correct it if I am wrong.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

My feeling is it was composed in Pakistan Punjab region and Indian agenda has conveniently slid to few miles east. Do you have any sources to knock out by supposition. I am open to this idea so if you provide sources.

I don't have any evidence for my supposition. Only that Indians demonstrate a pattern. They will always slide things from the Indus region into -

• India if there is anything on the east bank of Indus
• Afghanistan if there is anything west of the Indus
• leaving a blindspot where it says 'Pakistan'

Clearly this is driven by a agenda. So I believe this formula will have distorted the understanding of Rid Veda. Like I said correct it if I am wrong.

The Rig Veda comes from the Trtsu-Bharata clan ..here is the map of all the tribes in Rig Vedic period from non-Hindutva Germanic American scholar Schwartzberg...remember the Rig Veda is the celebration of Sudas' victory in the Battle of the Ten Kings and he did fight the ten Kings confederacy to the West


The Historical Atlas of South Asia is not some tripe HIndutva project...it took millions of dollars and decades to develop...University of Chicago hosts it for free...and is taught in reputed Universities across the world



The Bharata clan sits east of Upper Ravi

 

[Varunastra]

Saying Hinduism is foreign to India is like saying Indians are foreign to India lol. There should be a limit to conspiracy theories.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

The Rig Veda comes from the Trtsu-Bharata clan

Source please?

non-Hindutva Germanic American scholar Schwartzberg

The map does seem to be quality product. By the way often academics can be swayed by market or political forces. For instance a academic who will go in the direction that Hindutwas will recieve huge funding and status. There is always system bias which used to be more neutral prior to 1990s as neither side in South Asia had the reach to influence western media or academia. We were both "niggas" to them. Since 2000 however India has built potent influence in the west.

Still I will look into this. Seems interesting. Link for the historical atlas please?

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Source please?

The map does seem to be quality product. By the way often academics can be swayed by market or political forces. For instance a academic who will go in the direction that Hindutwas will recieve huge funding and status. There is always system bias which used to be more neutral prior to 1990s as neither side in South Asia had the reach to influence western media or academia. We were both "niggas" to them. Since 2000 however India has built potent influence in the west.

Still I will look into this. Seems interesting. Link for the historical atlas please?

The origins of the Rig Veda:

The codification of the Rigveda took place late in the Rigvedic or rather in the early post-Rigvedic period at ca. 1200 BCE, by members of the early Kuru tribe, when the center of Vedic culture east from the Punjab into what is now Uttar Pradesh.[49] The Rigveda was codified by compiling the hymns, including the arrangement of the individual hymns in ten books, coeval with the composition of the younger Veda Samhitas.[50] According to Witzel, the initial collection took place after the Bharata victory in the Battle of the Ten Kings, under king Sudās, over other Puru kings. This collection was an effort to reconcile various factions in the clans which were united in the Kuru kingdom under a Bharata king.[51][note 5] This collection was re-arranged and expanded in the Kuru Kingdom, reflecting the establishment of a new Bharata-Puru lineage and new srauta rituals.[52][note 6]


The Battle of the Ten Kings:

The battle took place during the middle or main Rigvedic period,[5] near the Ravi River in Punjab. It was a battle between the Puru Vedic Aryan tribal kingdoms of the Bharatas, allied with other tribes of the north west India, and the Trtsu-Bharata (Puru) king Sudas, who defeats other Vedic tribes.

K. F. Geldner in his 1951 translation of the Rigveda considers the hymns as "obviously based on a historical event", even though all details save for what is preserved in the hymns have been lost. Further details have been provided in a discussion of this hymn by H.P. Schmidt.[6]

According to S. S. N. Murthy, it is possible that the Battle of the Ten Kings, mentioned in the Rigveda, may have "formed the 'nucleus' of story" of the Kurukshetra War, though it was greatly expanded and modified in the Mahabharata's account.[4]


Bharata tribe:

Bharatas were a tribe mentioned in the Rigveda, especially in Mandala 3 attributed to the Bharata sage Vishvamitra. It is believed that Bharatas lived near river Ravi in modern Punjab in the second millennium B.C.E.[1][2][3] Bharatá is also used as a name of Agni (literally, "to be maintained", viz. the fire having to be kept alive by the care of men), .36.8.[4]

Mandala 7 (7.18 etc.) mentions the Bharatas as taking part in the Battle of the Ten Kings, where they are on the winning side. Due to the victory of the Bharata chieftain Sudas in this battle, the Bharata rulers were able to settle in the Kurukshetraarea.[5] They appear to have been successful in the early power-struggles between the various Vedic tribes.[citation needed]

In the epic Mahābhārata, the ancestor of Kurus becomes Emperor Bharata, and his ruler and kingdom is called Bhārata.[6]The Bharata clan mentioned in Mahabharata is a Kuru clan which is a sub clan of the Puru clan who were the cousins of the Yadavas.[7] "Bhārata" today is an official name of the Republic of India.[8]



Sudas:

Sudās (Sanskrit: सुदास) was an Indo-Aryan tribal king of the Bhāratas, during the main or middle Rigvedic period (c. 14th century BCE).[1] He led his tribe to victory in the Battle of the Ten Kings near the Paruṣṇī (modern Ravi River) in Punjab,[2] defeating an alliance of the powerful Puru tribe with other tribes, for which he was eulogised by his purohita Vashistha in a hymn of the Rigveda. His victory established the ascendency of the Bhārata clan, allowing them to move eastwards and settle in Kurukshetra, paving the way for the emergence of the Kuru "super-tribe" or tribal union, which dominated northern India in the subsequent period.[3]


Sudas is mentioned in Rigveda as the chief of Bharatas who conquered the ten-kings confederacy.[2] It is further mentioned that the king replaced Vashistha with Visvamitra as his priest, thereby creating a rivalry between the two. The ten-kings, viz. Puru, Yadu, Turvasa, Adu, Druhyu, Alina, Paktha, Bhalanas, Siva and Vishanin, then revolted against Sudas but were defeated by him. He also fought Ajas, Sigrus and Yakshus soon after.[4]

The Digital South Asia Library

The Digital South Asia Library provides dictionaries, gazetteers, photographs, prints, drawings, maps, statistics, bibliographies, indexes, books, and journals for reference and research concerning South Asia.

dsal.uchicago.edu

The Digital South Asia Library

The Digital South Asia Library provides dictionaries, gazetteers, photographs, prints, drawings, maps, statistics, bibliographies, indexes, books, and journals for reference and research concerning South Asia.

dsal.uchicago.edu

Digital South Asia Library_ Schwartzberg Atlas

The Digital South Asia Library provides dictionaries, gazetteers, photographs, prints, drawings, maps, statistics, bibliographies, indexes, books, and journals for reference and research concerning South Asia.

dsal.uchicago.edu

It was done in in 1978 and took 20 years of research and $1.2 Million in 1970s money

Hinduism Today | May 1993

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Fact of the matter remains that even within Rig Veda, tribes west of Ravi were already seen as enemies by the protagonists of the Rig Veda (probably due to water rights)




and I completely agree that West does see us "niggas" and would love to continue doing so but for the subtantial economic progress that some countries of the region have done since mid-2000s....if that momentum is lost, it's back to square one......A few shades lighter or darker doesnot make any non-white more palatable to them...I have seen even Turks fall victim to racism (the NSU murders being one of many examples)

 

[masterchief_mirza]

LOL there is no official narrative...different schoolboards teach different history...of course the history books in Meghalaya would not be ranting on and on regarding what was happening in Delhi


Edit: forgot to write not

Ok. Ask every single member of your governing party if Vedic Hinduism is native to India or if they agree instead with the Wikipedia analysis stated above. This "Rig Veda oration in coterminous India cements Hinduism as Indian" is a weak argument.

Christianity will always be originally middle eastern, regardless of what denominations arose around Europe.

Likewise, hinduism is an ideology borne of pontic steppe land and the IVC. Brahmanism alone as a variant, or rather, a true sect of Hinduism did arise in gangetic lands.

India practices a solitary violent, slave driving and aggressive sect of Hinduism, far removed from its IVC forebears.

Saying Hinduism is foreign to India is like saying Indians are foreign to India lol. There should be a limit to conspiracy theories.

Is Christianity native to Europe or foreign to Europe?

 

[Varunastra]

Ok. Ask every single member of your governing party if Vedic Hinduism is native to India or if they agree instead with the Wikipedia analysis stated above. This "Rig Veda oration in coterminous India cements Hinduism as Indian" is a weak argument.

Christianity will always be originally middle eastern, regardless of what denominations arose around Europe.

Likewise, hinduism is an ideology borne of pontic steppe land and the IVC. Brahmanism alone as a variant, or rather, a true sect of Hinduism did arise in gangetic lands.

India practices a solitary violent, slave driving and aggressive sect of Hinduism, far removed from its IVC forebears.



Is Christianity native to Europe or foreign to Europe?

Christianity being born in middle east has nothing to do with origin of Hinduism. Sanatan Dharma was practiced in Ancient India not outside, the people migrating into the subcontinent at various times accepted the same truth and worked towards improving our understanding of Brahman.

 

[GumNaam]

india is a silly people.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Sanatan Dharma was practiced in Ancient India

IVC is not Vedic. You may well be confusing several issues so reread earlier posts on the thread. I have already elucidated the relationships between IVC Hindu precursors and modern Vedic brahmanism, and how obligate interlopers from Eurasia created the latter from remnants of the former (albeit plausibly on gangetic territory). Any serious scholar on the subject would agree. You're welcome to prove otherwise. Failing that, keep believing you follow the words and works of "ancient natives". We laugh openly in front of your faces at such delusions.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Ok. Ask every single member of your governing party if Vedic Hinduism is native to India or if they agree instead with the Wikipedia analysis stated above. This "Rig Veda oration in coterminous India cements Hinduism as Indian" is a weak argument.

Christianity will always be originally middle eastern, regardless of what denominations arose around Europe.

Likewise, hinduism is an ideology borne of pontic steppe land and the IVC. Brahmanism alone as a variant, or rather, a true sect of Hinduism did arise in gangetic lands.

India practices a solitary violent, slave driving and aggressive sect of Hinduism, far removed from its IVC forebears.



Is Christianity native to Europe or foreign to Europe?

I akready had a productive civil conversation with Indus Pakistan regarding the composition of the Rig Veda...which had happened east of river Ravi.....


I think you are clouded by your hostility towards Hinduism..remember Nepal is also majority Hindu.....The central point of the Rig Veda is the Battle of the Ten Kings which is a massive Battle between the Bharata tribe and the tribal super confederacy west of the river Ravi

 

[masterchief_mirza]

I akready had a productive civil conversation with Indus Pakistan regarding the composition of the Rig Veda...which had happened east of river Ravi.....


I think you are clouded by your hostility towards Hinduism..remember Nepal is also majority Hindu.....The central point of the Rig Veda is the Battle of the Ten Kings which is a massive Battle between the Bharata tribe and the tribal super confederacy west of the river Ravi

Central point of vedism, sure. This is a sect of Hinduism.

I mean, you're literally pointing out to everyone that a civil war took place between reformists and counter-reformists/mleccha equivalents/rebels and somehow you still try to claim your variant is the rightful owner of Hinduism? You simply eradicated orthodox Hindu thought in favour of ideologies brought forth by migrants from Eurasia.

Please note - I have ZERO hostility towards Hinduism. I love Hinduism and Pakistan's Hindus. I despise the caste system, Vedic brahmanism and their apologists, mainly because they weakly surrendered themselves to non-IVC culture espoused by Eurasian steppe land migrants. You people betrayed and warred against the faith of the IVC yet your scholars have the nerve to claim heritage from it??

It will be relentlessly answered and refuted at every forum. Mark my words. Keep your business to gangetic lands. Dissociate yourselves from the IVC and associated philosophies. The terminology "India" and even "Hinduism" are falsely applied to your people. You are gangadeshi and vedic. Be proud of this and detach fully from the precursors whom you so proudly rejected at the battle of ten or fifteen armies.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Central point of vedism, sure. This is a sect of Hinduism.

I mean, you're literally pointing out to everyone that a civil war took place between reformists and counter-reformists/mleccha equivalents/rebels and somehow you still try to claim your variant is the rightful owner of Hinduism? You simply eradicated orthodox Hindu thought in favour of ideologies brought forth by migrants from Eurasia.

Please note - I have ZERO hostility towards Hinduism. I love Hinduism and Pakistan's Hindus. I despise the caste system, Vedic brahmanism and their apologists, mainly because they weakly surrendered themselves to non-IVC culture espoused by Eurasian steppe land migrants. You people betrayed and warred against the faith of the IVC yet your scholars have the nerve to claim heritage from it??

It will be relentlessly answered and refuted at every forum. Mark my words. Keep your business to gangetic lands. Dissociate yourselves from the IVC and associated philosophies. The terminology "India" and even "Hinduism" are falsely applied to your people. You are gangadeshi and vedic. Be proud of this and detach fully from the precursors whom you so proudly rejected at the battle of ten or fifteen armies.

We are rightful inheritors of Dholavira,Rakhagarhi,Lothal,Sanauli

But yes we dissociate from Harappa and Mohenjodaro


and I think you are completely confused regarding the context and the political scenario leading up to the Battle of the Ten Kings...something tells me you never ever even read a single line of the Rig Veda or the relevant passages that talks of that battle


I am done here..I already laid down my central thesis that Bharata tribe was critical regarding the composition of the Rig Veda..and that Bharata Tribe resided east of Ravi and those west of Ravi although considered co-ethnics at the start of the Rig Veda were considered hostile enemies by the end of the Rig Veda........going to take an indefinite break from PDF, starting two hours from now