Is India one people?

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

I'm afraid you've fallen for some intense propaganda.

Scientists Part of Studies Supporting Aryan Migration Endorse Party Line Instead

The authors of two scientific papers about Aryan migration endorsed a theory closer to the cultural triumphalism of the political right while the papers had themselves disfavoured it.

m.thewire.in

"This view propagated the idea that this ‘indigenously developed’ culture, along with Sanskrit, also spread westwards at the same time.

How valid is this ‘Out of India’ argument? Is there any evidence to substantiate its theory of outward migration?

Subclade R1a1a

Older studies based on mitochondrial DNA studies tell a different story: that outward migration did not happen. Instead, they indicate that some of the social groups distributed in various parts of India share a common genetic ancestral lineage (designated haplogroup R1a1a) with eastern Europeans. The new archeogenetic papers suggest that haplogroup R1a1a mutated out of haplogroup R1a in the Eurasian Steppe about 14,000 years ago. Thus, these studies support the ‘Out of the East European Steppes’ theory. It follows from this that the original form of Indo-European languages was first spoken in eastern Europe, the ‘original’ homeland.

About 10,000 years ago, a portion of the people that shared the genomic subclade R1a1a left their homeland and moved east towards the Caspian grasslands, where they tamed horses, goats and dogs and learned to build horse-drawn chariots, essential for a nomadic life. Around 1,900 BC, these people broke up into three groups. One group proceeded westward, to Anatolia, part of the fertile crescent. The second moved into what is now western Mongolia. The third group migrated southwards, into a region known to the Greeks as Bacteria.

Subsequently, the third group divided into two subgroups: one moved into what is now Iran, and the other into India. Those who entered India, around 1,500 BC, established the dominant civilisation in western Punjab. By then, much of the older Harappan settlers had either become marginalised or had moved to the south and central India, and even to parts of Balochistan. The newly settled people, the so-called ‘Aryans’ themselves, were not builders like the Harappans but are likelier to have been better story-tellers."

I donot give two hoots who migrated where....All I do know that even Harvard indologists agree that Rig Veda was composed by the Bharata tribe somewhere around modern day Haryana

and Hinduism is not just Rig Veda..it is also the customs of Dholavira,Lothal,Rakhagarhi..it is also the great cave paintings all over India..they far outstrip the Vedas in antiquity



as @Chhatrapati already pointed out that authenticity and the sacredness of the Vedas for HIndus is really not dependent on purity of genetics

 

[Chhatrapati]

Porus isn't one of yours, he's one of ours. The Nandas were your lot. Gangestan did not stop Alexander.

He declined to advance further after the campaign in the Indus region for reasons already mentioned in posts from multiple contributors above. My personal amateur enthusiast's interpretation is that Porus did enough damage to contribute to the ending of Alexander's campaign, but did not cause it in exclusivity.

If you're not offended by the term "elephant riders", then there is no harm in me using it. Your understanding is appreciated in this regard.

haha as predicted, you will say 'mu Porus is ours'. So, the one you mentioned as Gangetic filth Vedic, who corrupted IVC Hinduism, called Porus (greek name) is yours, the King Ambhi another one who sided with Alexander is yours too.

Oh man, I'm actually proud of those elephant riding warriors, who took not only Alexander for a ride but quite a lot of other folks around Asia, after all, we are the one's who invented a method to tame those giant creatures which unfortunately went extinct in your Arid desert. Not only our culture was so connected with elephants, we had an entire subsection in Vedas dedicated to animal welfare and medicine but of course, what would camel jockeys know about all that. The close to what they ever got were Persians, who had the modicum of sense to come to India and learn, you know, from the Vedic Gangetic filth

 

[masterchief_mirza]

@Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8

It's hard coming to terms with the fact that everything hindutva stands for is sheer bullcrap. I sympathise.


Vedic Hinduism and its cultural traits are as "foreign" to the gangetic plains as Islam is. They both have equal authority to be there and control the destiny of the Secular Republic of India.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

@Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8

It's hard coming to terms with the fact that everything hindutva stands for is sheer bullcrap. I sympathise.


Vedic Hinduism and its cultural traits are as "foreign" to the gangetic plains as Islam is. They both have equal authority to be there and control the destiny of the Secular Republic of India.

India is not JUst Gangetic Plains...it starts from Kargil and extends till Kanyakumari..It starts from the Rann of Kutch and extends till the mountains seperating the Indian subcontinental plate from Burma

All history there-in is the collective inheritance of Indians...So I donot see why you have problem when we own something that were composed in Haryana and the foothills of Himachal....

Are you really going to argue with me that priests sponsored by the Bharata-Kuru tribes didnot compose the Rig Veda? I have had a casual conversation till now...if you really want to take it up to the academic gear..let me know..I have two days to kill



Do you really want to see a map of the Earliest Rig Vedic tribes as determined by Western non-Hindutva scholars?

 

[masterchief_mirza]

haha as predicted, you will say 'mu Porus is ours'. So, the one you mentioned as Gangetic filth Vedic, who corrupted IVC Hinduism, called Porus (greek name) is yours, the King Ambhi another one who sided with Alexander is yours too.

Oh man, I'm actually proud of those elephant riding warriors, who took not only Alexander for a ride but quite a lot of other folks around Asia, after all, we are the one's who invented a method to tame those giant creatures which unfortunately went extinct in your Arid desert. Not only our culture was so connected with elephants, we had an entire subsection in Vedas dedicated to animal welfare and medicine but of course, what would camel jockeys know about all that. The close to what they ever got were Persians, who had the modicum of sense to come to India and learn, you know, from the Vedic Gangetic filth

I'm not purporting to be part of some Porus fan club. I'm referring simply to his point of geographic origin. His existence as a part of Pakistan's heritage is all that is being explained to you. I am entirely neutral over whether he was "good" or "bad". I am merely absolving your nation of any right to his legacy as he is not related to the Secular Republic. He is "ancient Indian" by contemporary designation, which is why you have usurped him in everything from Bollywood to "Indian" history books.

You fail to realise that we are not as butthurt as you are about the religious leanings of those who resided in ancient times in our lands. It's quite simple really.

My criticism of Vedic Hinduism stands separately to this point.

India is not JUst Gangetic Plains...it starts from Kargil and extends till Kanyakumari..It starts from the Rann of Kutch and extends till the mountains seperating the Indian subcontinental plate from Burma

All history there-in is the collective inheritance of Indians...So I donot see why you have problem when we own something that were composed in Haryana and the foothills of Himachal....

Are you really going to argue with me that priests sponsored by the Bharata-Kuru tribes didnot compose the Rig Veda? I have had a casual conversation till now...if you really want to take it up to the academic gear..let me know..I have two days to kill



Do you really want to see a map of the Earliest Rig Vedic tribes as determined by Western non-Hindutva scholars?

The Ganges was the seat of power for Hindu kings in the Vedic era. Certainly, empires ebbed and flowed beyond the physical gangetic floodplains. My points about Vedic Hinduism refer to the Ganges as its seat of authority. Nevertheless, however you define "Bharat mata", I'm afraid you cannot make it reach the pontic steppe.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

The earliest Rig Vedic Tribes from Schwartzberg's Historical Atlas of SOuth Asia..and taught in history departments of reputed universities around the world..His Atlas is hosted by University of Chicago...not a Hindutva supporter by any stretch of the imagination....Look closely where the earliest tribes have been located (this is not even the full map where earliest tribes have been located deep within India)


Look at the Bharatas and the Kuru clan (that came out of the Bharatas)

@masterchief_mirza ----->this should be enough for now to ponder upon...we have this level of granularity in terms of the origins of the Rig Veda

The homeland of the Bharata tribe starts well east of upper Ravi..well inside modern-day India ..east of Pathankot

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Nor will it reach Iran for that matter.

The earliest Rig Vedic Tribes from Schwartzberg's Historical Atlas of SOuth Asia..and taught in history departments of reputed universities around the world..His Atlas is hosted by University of Chicago...not a Hindutva supporter by any stretch of the imagination....Look closely where the earliest tribes have been located (this is not even the full map where earliest tribes have been located deep within India)


Look at the Bharatas and the Kuru clan (that came out of the Bharatas)

View attachment 729123

This proves nothing. Where did the philosophy originate? Who brought Vedic thought into the subcontinent?

Mughals and fully native Muslim empires also have pretty maps showing their empires in Hindustan. As per your logic, that's enough for legitimacy as a local business concern.

 

[Chhatrapati]

I'm not purporting to be part of some Porus fan club. I'm referring simply to his point of geographic origin. His existence as a part of Pakistan's heritage is all that is being explained to you. I am entirely neutral over whether he was "good" or "bad". I am merely absolving your nation of any right to his legacy as he is not related to the Secular Republic. He is "ancient Indian" by contemporary designation, which is why you have usurped him in everything from Bollywood to "Indian" history books.

You fail to realise that we are not as butthurt as you are about the religious leanings of those who resided in ancient times in our lands. It's quite simple really.

My criticism of Vedic Hinduism stands separately to this point.

Yeah, the problem is you claim Porus as yours then you say they are all different people, your IVC people are the original. I lost count of how many times you changed your stories until now. This is exactly what I said in the first post, you people do not even have a basic understanding of chronology, history lest Hinduism. Because of your identity issues, you want to claim great people who may have lived in the land you inherited but at the end, their religion and culture will make you say things that basically contradicts your claims.

Bruh! You don't even learn about them, that's evident from your posts. You have pumped up Qasim so much that, he's the first Pakistani and throughout the posts, you were trying to establish the superiority of your religion. Which basically explains a lot about your history books.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Nor will it reach Iran for that matter.

View attachment 729124

This proves nothing. Where did the philosophy originate? Who brought Vedic thought into the subcontinent?

Mughals and fully native Muslim empires also have pretty maps showing their empires in Hindustan. As per your logic, that's enough for legitimacy as a local business concern.

Doesnot matter as the Rig Veda was COMPOSED in-situ east of upper Ravi...that's all that matters...if we are really making that argument..we can trace our origins back to Africa ...we can even say that original inspiration for Rig Veda came from the first ape that had the first self-aware thought...........Mughals subscribed to Islam...and the Quran was composed in-situ in Arabia....Quran and Islam are a testament to the fundamental Arab Genius

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Yeah, the problem is you claim Porus as yours then you say they are all different people, your IVC people are the original. I lost count of how many times you changed your stories until now. This is exactly what I said in the first post, you people do not even have a basic understanding of chronology, history lest Hinduism. Because of your identity issues, you want to claim great people who may have lived in the land you inherited but at the end, their religion and culture will make you say things that basically contradicts your claims.

Bruh! You don't even learn about them, that's evident from your posts. You have pumped up Qasim so much that, he's the first Pakistani and throughout the posts, you were trying to establish the superiority of your religion. Which basically explains a lot about your history books.

Not sure what your dilemma is. I criticise Vedic Hinduism as foreign aberration of IVC hinduism, but I still claim Porus, Pingala, Chanakya et al as ours.

It is simply a question of legacy, not a judgement on these individuals.

Vedic Hinduism as a cultural force for malevolence came to power under your ancestors' watch. You embraced it, while we ultimately embraced something better.

Our two nations chose two different FOREIGN cultures to ultimately adopt. This is the point being made. But hey, keep obfuscating. You are good at that.

 

[Chhatrapati]

This proves nothing. Where did the philosophy originate? Who brought Vedic thought into the subcontinent?

Nobody bought it from some place, it's not a book you can buy, these from a historic sense were traditions, prayers, hymns that were used to please gods for people who lived in those regions. Gods that affected their lives. Like Rain, floods, fires, rivers etc... etc... So, how can someone bring something that praises the river Sindhu or Saraswathi, the Himavat (Himalayans) mountains from say Tajikistan or Persia?

 

[KedarT]

o I donot see why you have problem when we own something that were composed in Haryana and the foothills of Himachal....

Because they don't like it that we have something of our own

 

[Indos]

Nobody bought it from some place, it's not a book you can buy, these from a historic sense where traditions, prayers, hymns that were used to please gods for people who lived in those regions. Gods that affected their lives. Like Rain, floods, fires, rivers etc... etc... So, how can someone bring something that praises the river Sindhu or Saraswathi, the Himavat (Himalayans) mountains from say Tajikistan or Persia?

How many God that you worship ?? Just curious

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

How many God that you worship ?? Just curious

You can worship one God, many Gods, see Reality itself as God, be an atheist, be a materialist, be an agnostic,be a non-theist, be a skeptic----within HInduism...

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Doesnot matter as the Rig Veda was COMPOSED in-situ east of upper Ravi...that's all that matters...if we are really making that argument..we can trace our origins back to Africa ...we can even say that original inspiration for Rig Veda came from the first ape that had the first self-aware thought...........Mughals subscribed to Islam...and the Quran was composed in-situ in Arabia....Quran and Islam are a testament to the fundamental Arab Genius

Listen buddy, Islam isn't just the Quran and in the subcontinent Islam also underwent cosmetic influence by various Sufi saints. I can easily point to schools of thought in subcontinent Islam that are different from the point of ultimate source of Islam. Islam came from a foreign nation, brought by foreigners. Vedic Hinduism and its cultural traits (and arguably even IVC hinduism) also came from foreign people from foreign lands. The folks who wrote rig Veda were fresh off the back of a spoked chariot ready to undo the remnants of IVC philosophy in lieu of a new shiny slave cult.

Ergo, Islam has equal right over the destiny of the subcontinent as the equally foreign faith of Vedic Hinduism.

Because they don't like it that we have something of our own

CompoSed by slavers from eastern European steppe land. Yep, the koolaid is great around Haryana.
Clue's in the name chaps...Haryana.

Those east European slavers are laughing at how easily gangadesh was duped.

They wrote their slave manual in India, without asking the dravidians if they were happy about the stuff in there, and our resident PhD s think this makes Vedic Hinduism a local business.

Seriously, folks want to sit down and reevaluate a few things here.