Is Hindi-Urdu Closer to Persian or Turkic?

[Joe Shearer]

Glad you read it.


Stop making excuses. Lol


I haven't read their posts.
The discussion on language baffles me. I have always felt that everyone tries to impose his/her version on the other, same is true for history. It's easier for ppl to accept AIT (Aryan invasion theory) and influence of foreign language but are reticent to accept that it could have happened in the reverse direction too.
Will read the other posts on this thread later.

Buh-bye.

Now THAT is a cop-out! (Nice to be able to return a favour!!!). You owe it to yourself to go through the information and to take an informed decision. You can't shuffle it off as (a) too tough; (b) too arcane; (c) too time-consuming.

 

[vsdoc]

but are reticent to accept that it could have happened in the reverse direction too.

@Joe Shearer

Did we come from you or did you come from us?

 

[Levina]

You can't shuffle it off as (a) too tough; (b) too arcane; (c) too time-consuming.

Option B.
My CPU was not programmed to take informed decisions.

@Joe Shearer

Did we come from you or did you come from us?

Ahem...I see you still have some doubts.

 

[vsdoc]

Ahem...I see you still have some doubts.

I have no doubts whatsoever.

P.S. We did not invade in the real "organized military" sense of the word.

Merely had a misunderstanding between brothers about who was the King Tut up above and went our different ways.

And moved in. And kept moving in.

Then we loved. Then we birthed. Some of our own. Some from where we moved in.

Eventually there was so much loving and birthing, that we managed to beat the line between oil and water into a nice turbid frothy mass.

P.P.S Joe are you choking on your tea, or busy writing out a nice long treatise?

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer

Did we come from you or did you come from us?

Smart alec.

As of now, the accepted academic version, which @levina is fighting so hard, is that a common horde of Indo-Iranian speakers split apart - timing and speed and seriousness of the speed not known - in a region which could be where the graphic shown earlier indicates, northern Iran, somewhere near the Caspian, or around the Syr Daria/ Amu Daria delta. They may have been moving west to east, as the graphic suggests, throwing out a peculiar off-shoot into the Takla Makan, the Tukharians, or north-north-east, from the BMAC culture location, to south-south-west, through Balkh and onwards to the Iranian plateau.

The split seems to have been religious in nature, as the roles of gods and Titans are reversed on each side of the split.

The minority faction moved across the mountain barriers, either to the north, or to the south, through the Bolan, in dribs and drabs, replicated their tribal nature as they recovered for a few generations in the Indus Valley, and moved into the Gangetic plain by about 1500 BC.

This is reflected in genetic terms, as there was a giant churning of ANI and ASI at that time, for a protracted period. It is tempting to see this perturbation as reflecting the increasing spread of the Indo-Aryan language over the Gangetic Plain, and physical distancing of the older elites speaking Dravidian from the scene of the linguistic take-over.

We came from you.

 

[vsdoc]

Smart alec.

As of now, the accepted academic version, which @levina is fighting so hard, is that a common horde of Indo-Iranian speakers split apart - timing and speed and seriousness of the speed not known - in a region which could be where the graphic shown earlier indicates, northern Iran, somewhere near the Caspian, or around the Syr Daria/ Amu Daria delta. They may have been moving west to east, as the graphic suggests, throwing out a peculiar off-shoot into the Takla Makan, the Tukharians, or north-north-east, from the BMAC culture location, to south-south-west, through Balkh and onwards to the Iranian plateau.

The split seems to have been religious in nature, as the roles of gods and Titans are reversed on each side of the split.

The minority faction moved across the mountain barriers, either to the north, or to the south, through the Bolan, in dribs and drabs, replicated their tribal nature as they recovered for a few generations in the Indus Valley, and moved into the Gangetic plain by about 1500 BC.

This is reflected in genetic terms, as there was a giant churning of ANI and ASI at that time, for a protracted period. It is tempting to see this perturbation as reflecting the increasing spread of the Indo-Aryan language over the Gangetic Plain, and physical distancing of the older elites speaking Dravidian from the scene of the linguistic take-over.

We came from you.

So my 10th std pass crude history post above yours was pretty accurate?

Seriously now, the IVC.

The dancing girl - very Dravidian.

The bearded priest - very Iranic.

The Bull - very Iranic.

So were the Indus Valley guys Dravidians or Aryans?

(or as circa 2015 Pakistani revisionist narrative teaches us, a proud and unique "cusp" civilization - shudder/cringe - race)

 

[Joe Shearer]

So my 10th std pass crude history post above yours was pretty accurate?

Seriously now, the IVC.

The dancing girl - very Dravidian.

The bearded priest - very Iranic.

The Bull - very Iranic.

So were the Indus Valley guys Dravidians or Aryans?

(or as circa 2015 Pakistani revisionist narrative teaches us, a proud and unique "cusp" civilization)

Neither.

Dravidian and Aryan were language groups, not ethnicity. The Priest could have spoken Dravidian; the Girl could have spoken Indo-Aryan. Going by accepted genealogical wisdom, the inhabitants should have been ANI.

 

[vsdoc]

Neither.

Dravidian and Aryan were language groups, not ethnicity. The Priest could have spoken Dravidian; the Girl could have spoken Indo-Aryan. Going by accepted genealogical wisdom, the inhabitants should have been ANI.

So the theory of their kill-off, forced migration in the face of migration from the west is not true?

Wasn't there a thread long ago on the IVC (@Bang Galore and @Developereo) where you (?) postulated that were the IVC to have actually survived, they would have been among the south Indian population today?

 

[Levina]

Smart alec.

As of now, the accepted academic version, which @levina is fighting so hard, is that a common horde of Indo-Iranian speakers split apart - timing and speed and seriousness of the speed not known - in a region which could be where the graphic shown earlier indicates, northern Iran, somewhere near the Caspian, or around the Syr Daria/ Amu Daria delta. They may have been moving west to east, as the graphic suggests, throwing out a peculiar off-shoot into the Takla Makan, the Tukharians, or north-north-east, from the BMAC culture location, to south-south-west, through Balkh and onwards to the Iranian plateau.

The split seems to have been religious in nature, as the roles of gods and Titans are reversed on each side of the split.

The minority faction moved across the mountain barriers, either to the north, or to the south, through the Bolan, in dribs and drabs, replicated their tribal nature as they recovered for a few generations in the Indus Valley, and moved into the Gangetic plain by about 1500 BC.

This is reflected in genetic terms, as there was a giant churning of ANI and ASI at that time, for a protracted period. It is tempting to see this perturbation as reflecting the increasing spread of the Indo-Aryan language over the Gangetic Plain, and physical distancing of the older elites speaking Dravidian from the scene of the linguistic take-over.

We came from you.

Well..well
From whatever lil knowledge I have of IVC (SSC in my lexicon, I believe Sarawasti had an equally important part to play as the Sindhu river in IVC), archaeologists found evidences of circular houses and pottery divergent from that of inhabitants of SSC, towards stage-VII of SSC.
Now if at all these newcomers were Aryans then they would have had very little influence on the inhabitants of SSC, who had already moved towards Ganges plains after a cataclysmic event.
In the gulf of Cambay remnants of a twin metropolises were found, these were dated back to the end of ice age (when the last of the 3 pulses of melt water was released). The twin cities were structurally identical to Harappa.
So for obvious reasons I believe the influence of culture(and language) would have happened from east to west in this case.

+ this discovery pretty much reinforces my belief
Rare discovery pushes back Iron Age in India - The Times of India

 

[Joe Shearer]

So the theory of their kill-off, forced migration in the face of migration from the west is not true?

Wasn't there a thread long ago on the IVC (@Bang Galore and @Developereo) where you (?) postulated that were the IVC to have actually survived, they would have been among the south Indian population today?

I defer to @Bang Galore on IVC matters, as we haven't had an opportunity to re-visit that pre-historic situation for a long time now, and on the last occasion, he was definitely in better grip of the facts and their general direction.

That the IVC survivors should be among the south Indian population today is/was a possibility, but only a possibility. It requires a migration away to the south (why the south? why not the east? why not the north?) by some portion of the survivors. The word survivors itself is a tricky word to use; the question asks itself, survivors of what? On the one hand, there was the churning of the ANI and ASI roughly around that time; was this expressed as a migration by the IVC people? Maybe, maybe not. Nobody really knows.

 

[haviZsultan]

I would say Persian. I mean look at the anthem of Pakistan. It is understandable both in Persian and Urdu.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Well..well
From whatever lil knowledge I have of IVC (SSC in my lexicon, I believe Sarawasti had an equally important part to play as the Sindhu river in IVC), archaeologists found evidences of circular houses and pottery divergent from that of inhabitants of SSC, towards stage-VII of SSC.
Now if at all these newcomers were Aryans then they would have had very little influence on the inhabitants of SSC, who had already moved towards Ganges plains after a cataclysmic event.
In the gulf of Cambay remnants of a twin metropolises were found, these were dated back to the end of ice age (when the last of the 3 pulses of melt water was released). The twin cities were structurally identical to Harappa.
So for obvious reasons I believe the influence of culture(and language) would have happened from east to west in this case.

+ this discovery pretty much reinforces my belief
Rare discovery pushes back Iron Age in India - The Times of India

No comment.

There are too many mistakes to address this post. Have fun.

 

[Levina]

No comment.

There are too many mistakes to address this post. Have fun.

Not fair...
You could have pointed out my mistakes.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I would say Persian. I mean look at the anthem of Pakistan. It is understandable both in Persian and Urdu.

Heh.

If you use a sufficient number of Persian nouns, Urdu becomes a close approximation of Persian, but is never Persian because of the verbs. If you use a sufficient number of Turkish nouns, Urdu becomes a close approximation of Turkish, but never....etc., etc. In fact, if you use a sufficient number of Sanskrit nouns, Urdu becomes Hindustani, which Gandhi in a zany moment wanted to install as the national language.

I sense, with some amusement, the difficulty that some of us face in accepting that Urdu, the language of the horde, is indeed so flexible, and that this flexibility is inbuilt, born of its inception as a camp lingua franca, or as a patois, take your pick.

Not fair...
You could have pointed out my mistakes.

After my class; I have to teach Michael Porter's Five Forces, and there is little that is more boring. The class is also a boring one. None of them inspire me; I really don't like them.

 

[vsdoc]

I defer to @Bang Galore on IVC matters, as we haven't had an opportunity to re-visit that pre-historic situation for a long time now, and on the last occasion, he was definitely in better grip of the facts and their general direction.

That the IVC survivors should be among the south Indian population today is/was a possibility, but only a possibility. It requires a migration away to the south (why the south? why not the east? why not the north?) by some portion of the survivors. The word survivors itself is a tricky word to use; the question asks itself, survivors of what? On the one hand, there was the churning of the ANI and ASI roughly around that time; was this expressed as a migration by the IVC people? Maybe, maybe not. Nobody really knows.

Why not East?

Because that followed large rivers and fertile alluvial soil.

Which a people tired of moving and desirous of roots would have coveted for a settle-down.

The deccan at the time would still have been largely a land of smaller rivers, and volcanic activity and soil and plateau rockbed.

I sense, with some amusement, the difficulty that some of us face in accepting that Urdu, the language of the horde, is indeed so flexible, and that this flexibility is inbuilt, born of its inception as a camp lingua franca, or as a patois, take your pick.

Bingo.

A garrison tongue I believe some call/ed it.