What's new

Is China more legitimate than the West?

This is about a thousand years question.

Is Western way the best way in the world? The answer is, no.
For many of the above reason, the western way is not always the best way to deal with any situation. Let not look at the American model of politic, look at Australia.

Australian Prime Minister election is a citizenship based election where each Australian have to vote (Voting is mandatory and if yo udo not vote, you will be fine or jaled or both). They vote their perference party on thier own electorate and in turn the winning party nominate a leader and become the Prime Minister. The problem with the Australian Election is more than 37% of the vote are blank or incorrectly filled (Or commonly known as "Trash Vote"). There are people who really into the election, they followed the candidate from town to town, but there are also people who just gone to a poll and vote, without knowing even who represent what, those people are commonly known as Non-perferenced. In a complete democratic system, the balance between the serious voter and to people who gone and throw their vote away is not much of a different. The problem is with the political system itself. Many would believe there are no to not many change even a different candidate or different party got voted into a new government.

For voting to be effective, one's nation have to have faith on their own political model or political system. With the current political model in the west, where government is fragmented because they are to ensure no one entity have overhelming power, the voting system is actually of no use, simply voter can only vote for one man, but one man (or woman) can do only so little in the grandier scheme. People lose faith on their political system because of it, but this is the mainstream political system the west have been using probably for a hundred years.

What it is, people vote becase they can, not because they can do anything with in.

Now, let's look at the Chinese model, where nobody can have a direct say on who's the leader gonna be, apart from the selected circle. The problem with this is obivious, that the leader is born with or without the regard of general public, however, for a centralised government, that's a problem where it basically okay as long as you appoint a competent leader. If the leader is an incompetent, then the country will fall into a downward spiral.

However, what do the citizen say about this model? Actually there are no voice about it, as A.) This have nothing to do with the general public, hence, no one care. B.) The public are not allow to publicly critise the government and what they do. But actually it serve right with a oppressed but obedient citizens. where you don't tell a leader what to do, you do what the leader told you to.

What work best is, if you have a population of China, where 1.3 billions, and if you as a candidate actually hear every voices before you gone into a bi-literal democratic election, you probably will died of old age before you have heard it all and a vote and be held, it simply not going to happen as there are just literally too many people. You have to ignore what people need if you want to have a leader that work. Hence, this is what feel democratic in a non-democratic Totalitarian regime, and this is work best with China.
 
.
Mate - guess what - the common Chinese does not get to vote and so can't vote their leaders - a small closed group is huddled somewhere and will decide the fate of the 1.3 billion for the next 10 years - so the Chinese leaders does not become gladiators on TV but Americans get to choose who is going to lead them for the next 4 years and so the American leaders have to stage the dog and pony show in front of the 300 odd million Americans.

It is basically different perspective and for us, we are fine with it and we feel proud of the option available in front of us every 4 years.

P.S : please do not give us this excuse that the Chinese leaders have undergone scrutiny by common Chinese.

In China, Imperial examination established in 605 A.D. during the Sui Dynasty, continue until the last dynasty in 20th Century has profound impact on the Chinese civilization. It make China a more egalitarian society because it provide an upwardly mobile path to rise in society through education.
Imperial examination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The imperial examination (科舉, kējǔ) was an examination system in Imperial China designed to select the best administrative officials for the state's bureaucracy. This system had a huge influence on both society and culture in Imperial China and was partly responsible for changes in the power structure of the Tang and Song Dynasties that would hold long after their dissolution. The system assisted in the replacement of what had been relatively few aristocratic families with a more diffuse and populous class of typically rural-dwelling, landowning scholar-bureaucrats, organized into clans. Neighboring Asian countries such as Vietnam, Korea, Japan and Ryūkyū also implemented similar systems, both to draw in their top national talent and to maintain a tight grip on that talent's time, resources, and ideological goals.[
Today one of the branch of the CPC is the Organization department.
Organization Department of the Communist Party of China Central Committee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Organization Department of the Communist Party of China Central Committee (simplified Chinese: 中国共产党中央组织部; traditional Chinese: 中國共產黨中央組織部; pinyin: Zhōngguó Gòngchǎndǎng Zhōngyāng Zǔzhībù) is a department of the Secretariat of the Communist Party of China Central Committee that controls staffing positions within the CPC.

The Organization Department is one of the most important organs of the CPC. It is a secretive and highly trusted agency,[1] and forms the institutional heart of the Leninist party system. It controls the more than 70 million party personnel assignments throughout the national system,[2] and compiles detailed and confidential reports on future potential leaders of the Party.[1]
And in Republic of China (Taiwan), one of the five branch/yuan of government besides the executive and legislative branch etc is the Examination Yuan
Politics of the Republic of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Examination Yuan (ExY) functions as a civil service commission and includes two ministries: the Ministry of Examination, which recruits officials through competitive examination, and the Ministry of Personnel, which manages the civil service. The President appoints the Examination Yuan's President. The current President of the Examination Yuan is John Kuan.
 
.
Mate - guess what - the common Chinese does not get to vote and so can't vote their leaders - a small closed group is huddled somewhere and will decide the fate of the 1.3 billion for the next 10 years - so the Chinese leaders does not become gladiators on TV but Americans get to choose who is going to lead them for the next 4 years and so the American leaders have to stage the dog and pony show in front of the 300 odd million Americans.

It is basically different perspective and for us, we are fine with it and we feel proud of the option available in front of us every 4 years.

P.S : please do not give us this excuse that the Chinese leaders have undergone scrutiny by common Chinese.


To each of their own I guess. Given time, I believe or I like to believe, there will be elections but not in the forms of western style. Villagers will vote their leaders who in turn will vote for prefecture leaders and go on to vote for provincial leaders and finally select the national leaders. I say that because there are numerous low level voting in the past few years already and a country as populous as China should not change overnight anyway.

With internet and physical protestations prevail across the country the leadership have to find ways to change and changes there will.

We're not arguing which system is better, just a matter of personal preference as to what system fit which country better.
 
.
I couldn't care less about a game of two stupid running horses each trying to outdo the other by telling lies and spreading false promises so long as the government,headed by whoever and chosen by whatever means,delivers 8% plus growth for 30 years。

The western model,which was funded by the extreme exploitation of THE conquest ,has had its day。

The yougest western model,i.e. the US model,is also in relative decline。

It is high time that human tries something else。
 
.
To each of their own I guess. Given time, I believe or I like to believe, there will be elections but not in the forms of western style. Villagers will vote their leaders who in turn will vote for prefecture leaders and go on to vote for provincial leaders and finally select the national leaders. I say that because there are numerous low level voting in the past few years already and a country as populous as China should not change overnight anyway.

With internet and physical protestations prevail across the country the leadership have to find ways to change and changes there will.

We're not arguing which system is better, just a matter of personal preference as to what system fit which country better.

Mate - Unless you have something to provide to support your claims, your claim stays lack of credibility, especially with the above link(thanks JsCh for spoon feeding me with the entries above) from wikipedia and the external source quoted in the wikipedia for the below entries.


The CPC uses the nomenklatura method ("list of names" in Soviet terminology) to determine appointments. The nomenklatura system is how a Leninist ruling party staffs the apparat, exercising organizational hegemony over appointments and dominating the political life of the country.
 
.
I couldn't care less about a game of two stupid running horses each trying to outdo the other by telling lies and spreading false promises so long as the government,headed by whoever and chosen by whatever means,delivers 8% plus growth for 30 years。

The western model,which was funded by the extreme exploitation of THE conquest ,has had its day。

The yougest western model,i.e. the US model,is also in relative decline。

It is high time that human tries something else。

The US model is actually one of the oldest western models. Humans does not need to try anything new and not especially the CCP system what you are indirectly quoting above especially with what we saw during the early 1970s where millions perished without any accountability from the CCP. The 8% plus growth for 30 years is preceded by the western model developed society and until the Chinese society delivers that developed society with all fundamental rights assured, it is not an alternative.
 
.
Mate - Unless you have something to provide to support your claims, your claim stays lack of credibility, especially with the above link(thanks JsCh for spoon feeding me with the entries above) from wikipedia and the external source quoted in the wikipedia for the below entries.


The CPC uses the nomenklatura method ("list of names" in Soviet terminology) to determine appointments. The nomenklatura system is how a Leninist ruling party staffs the apparat, exercising organizational hegemony over appointments and dominating the political life of the country.


Read my post again. Didn't I said: "I believe or I like to believe"? So what proof do I need on what I believe.

However my believe is based on what I read in the forums and local news across the country. There are many local elections of village heads already and, like I said, changes don't and shouldn't happen overnight is a populous country like China where democracy was never an inherent factor in the society.

Your bold part is my personal conclusion if you allow one event to happen, given time, the next event will also happens and so on. Granted you don't believe in the CPC system but I do. Any problem with that?
 
.
Read my post again. Didn't I said: "I believe or I like to believe"? So what proof do I need on what I believe.

However my believe is based on what I read in the forums and local news across the country. There are many local elections of village heads already and, like I said, changes don't and shouldn't happen overnight is a populous country like China where democracy was never an inherent factor in the society.

Your bold part is my personal conclusion if you allow one event to happen, given time, the next event will also happens and so on. Granted you don't believe in the CPC system but I do. Any problem with that?

Understood. Lets agree to disagree here and who knows there might be a better system popping up somewhere hidden today in the tortoirse vs hare race. ;)
 
.
0000339_531.jpeg


"不管黑猫白猫能抓到老鼠就是好猫。" - "It matters not whether the cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice." - 邓小平 - Deng Xiaoping
 
.
Of course it will! Western civ is already the right model...and you guys bought it hook, line and sinker...advance our civilization! Thank you!
We did? I thought we are just up to our old 2500 year old Middle Kingdom game :rolleyes:


(ps...I don't think you really live in China...or if you do you were educated in the US (use of language) Have you taken any Chinese history classes? My exposure goes to just before Qing.
Many elites in China have some foreign education. After we wrest control of East Asia from a declining and decrepit USA, then we are not only the scions of the Yellow River civilization, we are also the true flag-bearers of Western civilization, then we have the legitimacy to claim leadership over Western countries as well. :azn:

This is no different from the way USA helped defeat Germany to claim leadership over all Western countries and no different from the way Japan tried to use Manchukuo to claim itself as the successor to Qing Empire. ;)
 
.
You were right that around the 19th and 20th century, we were completely overawe by western science and technology. We try to deny our root and CCP did try to hamper Chinese culture through the Cultural Revolution. But the state machine is no match for the millenniums of civilization. True today Chinese is learning all that they can of western science and technology, as evidence by the look of Chinese cities. But those are just superficial form, Chinese did not abandon and indeed could not her culture/civilization. Today the slogan for the national aspiration is called the rejuvenation of Chinese nation.
And your reaction above looks just like what Chinese have when delivered a rude awakening by superior western science and technology.
Denial..........
:confused: This is the problem with PDF members speaking for China who do not actually live in mainland China. Traditional Chinese culture is all but destroyed. It's true. Chinese civilization remains but it is radically different now than compared to pre-1949. Just like 150 years of slavery under Mongol Yuan completely changed China from classical to medieval culture. Those 150 years of humiliation by Western powers and then Japanese Empire, followed by civil war upheaval, has completely changed Chinese culture.

Not saying it's either a bad or good thing. CCP over the past 60 years was the only force that saved China by re-creating it as a mix of Western powers, USSR and Japanese Empire. Overseas Chinese simply fail to understand this until you live in China. For example, we don't use traditional characters and we think all forms of ancestor worship is superstition (don't believe in any spirits, ghosts, luck, qi... whatsoever). We only believe in ethno-nationalism (if you are a good mainland Chinese) or money (if you are a lousy mainland Chinese).
 
.
To each of their own I guess. Given time, I believe or I like to believe, there will be elections but not in the forms of western style. Villagers will vote their leaders who in turn will vote for prefecture leaders and go on to vote for provincial leaders and finally select the national leaders. I say that because there are numerous low level voting in the past few years already and a country as populous as China should not change overnight anyway.

With internet and physical protestations prevail across the country the leadership have to find ways to change and changes there will.

We're not arguing which system is better, just a matter of personal preference as to what system fit which country better.
As average Chinese socio-economic status, standard of living and education improves, more opportunity for political participation by the masses is inevitable. It may not necessarily take the form of multi-party democracy. It may take the form of factions within CCP. Another question is to what extent China would be centralized (more so than it is now -- like France) or federalized (like Russia). Factional / party / ideological splits would likely fall along the centralize-federalize axis or the hawkish foreign policy-make money at all costs axis.


"不管黑猫白猫能抓到老鼠就是好猫。" - "It matters not whether the cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice." - 邓小平 - Deng Xiaoping
Deng Xiaoping was not the worse thing that could happen to China, but he certainly set the stage for ~13 years of moral, spiritual and cultural desertfication (1997 to 2010 under Jiang and Hu, especially Hu / Wen :sick:). His "get rich is glorious" slogan almost destroyed China and would have left China easy prey for Western powers if it was not for the resurgence of foreign policy hawks in CCP including Xi Jinping.
 
.
The funny thing is Martin Jacques would probably occupy the position of Liu Xiaobo If the West had the Chinese model of governance.


Anyways, If Martine Jacques, a known sinophile, speaks truly of the differences in Chinese thought in governance, and legitimacy comes from the people, then the Western governments are more legitimate than China.

Why you ask? Because Martin Jacques is falsely comparing administrations to a relationship between the people and government.

A more correct example would be comparing the approval of a democratic system in the West vs whatever relationship Martine Jacques believes exists in China.

There is more approval of the general idea of the democratic system in the West than the one party system in China. There is more approval for a democratic system in China than there is approval for a one party system in the West.
 
.
It should be noted that legitimacy is ultimately a subjective criteria, If China's definition of what constitutes legitimacy is different from what constitutes it in the West, then they can't be compared, its apples to oranges. But it looks like Martin Jacques is trying to compare them using what is typically considered the criteria for legitimacy in the West, and so the response above ^^
 
.
I couldn't care less about a game of two stupid running horses each trying to outdo the other by telling lies and spreading false promises so long as the government,headed by whoever and chosen by whatever means,delivers 8% plus growth for 30 years。

The western model,which was funded by the extreme exploitation of THE conquest ,has had its day。

The yougest western model,i.e. the US model,is also in relative decline。

It is high time that human tries something else。

The youngest model? Ours is more than 200 years old and still going strong. You got young democratic nations that existed since the fall of the Soviet Union. The reason there is no voting by the Chinese population is because they don't trust them to vote who they want. But if it works for the Chinese fine by me. Its only barely 60 years old. Hope it last longer than some Dynasties.
 
.

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom