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Is China becoming an Interventionist?

China vote AGAINST foreign intervention in Syria in the UNSC.
The last I check, Assad government is still the recognized, legitimate, sovereign representative of Syria in UN.
Religion has nothing to do with it.
 
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Is this your own post? Or you just do copy-paste job? LOL
And now you start to blame it on others. Looks like some kind of weakness, does it?

hahaha you are funny LOL.

So citing a scholarly source is the same as blaming things on others? and it's "some kind of weakness"? LOL

The book I quoted from was written by a PhD and published by Springer.

But in your school, did they teach you that citing scholarly source is a weakness??? hahahaha.
Who's your professor? Kim Jong un?

hahahahaha

I think people use personal attacks against posters that they disagree with are really low. I hope they are older than 20 years old, lol, otherwise, they need go back to school.

Does it really matter who that person is as long as he makes a point? Otherwise, we are all tainted by our backgrounds and we have no grounds to accuse anyone of their bias or prejudices.

I have been called by some Chinese members here as animals and saw I was referred to by them as "it' in Chinese. lol when I accessed this site without log-in. They were all blocked by me. Why should I care who they are if those Chinese don't even have basic respect for other people for having different opinions? One guy even guessed that I am from Taiwan, and I guess to them, all mainland Chinese are robots marching along under the glorious banners upheld by the almighty CCP showing the world how perfect the CCP is? Remember, criticism is what drives a country forward, not incessant sugar coated praises that just poison you into slumber, and then get fed to the wolf before too late, lol.

I think it's like a herd mentality thing going on with some of these members. Some members are not even interested in anything about politics, economy, military, etc. They are only here to type one-liner or one-paragrapher to fit in with the herd.

If some one strays from the herd, or being perceived as an enemy attacking the herd, they will jump in with personal attacks lol. I've seen plenty of Chinese members being accused of being an Indian or Viet because they don't tow the party line LOL.

Anyway, like most herds, they are easily manipulated and provoked. So sometime I enjoy poking at them just for a laugh.

Is the report accurate? I have serious reservation over those report authencity. There are many report regarding China which fills with plenty of inaccuracy. China support certain group in Myanmar? That's new to me.

Jane's has good reputation. They are not Kanwa. The article I quoted from referenced another report. Here's what they said regarding weapons transfer to the UWSA in that report:

Chinese support

The last, but not least, of the factors behind the UWSA's expansion has been military resupply across the
Chinese border. Since the early 1990s, the UWSA has been able to purchase from China petrol, oil, and
lubricants, as well as a wide range of infantry weaponry. Units armed in 1989 with obsolescent Chinese Type 56
assault rifles are currently equipped with more modern Type 81 rifles. Less visibly, the bolstering of the UWSA's
arsenal has also included a range of infantry support weapons, most of which were already deployed in smaller
numbers by the CPB. This has included Type 69 rocket-propelled grenade launchers, 12.7 mm and 14.5 mm
heavy machine guns, anti-aircraft cannons (either ZU-23-2 or ZU-23-4), Type 36 57 mm, and Type 52 75 mm
recoilless rifles, and mortars of up to 120 mm.

Persistent reports over recent years have also indicated that the UWSA has acquired 122 mm and 130 mm
artillery pieces, with training provided by instructors from China's People's Liberation Army (PLA). No
photographic evidence of heavy artillery has reached the public domain, but Chinese-language publications
produced by the UWSA include numerous references to an artillery regiment (pao-tuan). Military analysts in
Thailand monitoring the UWSA doubt such a unit would be established on the basis of heavy mortars alone. In
2001, Thai military intelligence sources also told IHS Jane's that the UWSA was fielding Chinese-made HN-5
series MANPADS.

Details surrounding UWSA procurement have been predictably opaque. However, most analysts assume that
much, if not all, the intake of post-1989 equipment has been acquired on China's 'grey' arms market, a zone of
plausible deniability peopled largely by 'private sector' middle men, usually with backgrounds in China's military
and intelligence services and with close links to state-owned arms manufacturers. At the same time, it is also
generally assumed that the acquisition by any foreign armed groups of strategically sensitive systems such as
MANPADS could not take place without explicit sanction from senior levels of China's national security
establishment. As one Thailand-based analyst put it to IHS Jane's: "In China, this sort of kit does not fall off the
back of a truck."

The same conditions would unquestionably surround the current resupply surge. According to both Asian
intelligence sources and ethnic minority military sources who spoke separately to IHS Jane's, the effort has
been unprecedented both in the quantity of munitions and the type of systems delivered, and is highly likely to
have stemmed from a high-level decision made in Beijing.

The most striking element has been the arrival of armoured vehicles, which the UWSA has never before fielded....

... Supply of the armoured vehicles began in June-July 2012, according to IHS Jane's sources, with vehicles
crossing the bridge over the Nam Kha river into Panghsang at night, generally in groups of two or three.
However, the fact that one IHS Jane's source was able to count 12 PTL-02s parked openly in daylight in
Panghsang suggests that neither UWSA nor China is particularly interested in secrecy.

And here is a picture of those armoured vehicles from sina.com :

342_24039_456524.jpg



****://slide.mil.news.sina.com.cn/l/slide_8_342_33062.html#p=1

@alaungphaya can probably confirm that those are UWSA flags?

As you can see, these vehicles are new. I can agree with Jane's analysis that these kind of military equipments can not be transferred through the black market without the Chinese authority noticing them.

It's different from the middle east where the black market there receive arms from corrupt Arab officials that are beyond the control of the Chinese authority. In Myanmar's case, the black market is inside China itself and the Chinese authority should be able to notice these major cross-border transfers.

However, our Burmese members probably have a more accurate picture of what's going on (or maybe not, they could be CIA troll :partay:).


I will address China directly rather than with Chinese people in general but the general public don't really care all that much about the Wa. Especially in Yangon. The Wa are a far away people in a far away land even though they are in our country. They have always been a particularly wild bunch (some of them actually used to be cannibals as recently as the 70's). The UWSA are not a major concern nor are the Kokang. They used to be communists and China used to fund them but now they grow drugs in the jungle and use the money to open night clubs in Yangon. No harm there. They are ethnically Chinese so they will always be friendly towards the Chinese and China will always help them if it serves their interests. Nothing special. What does concern me is the way China is discretely tolerant of the Kachin Independence Army. Their arms and materiel are Chinese made no doubt bought by their agents on the Chinese side of the border. It irks us that China sometimes turns a blind eye to their activities on their side of the border and perhaps should do more to help our fight against the rebels.

In my own opinion, I look at historical precedence. The peoples on the China-Myanmar border have traditionally been on the border figuratively between Chinese and Burmese culture. Our control over them has never been absolute and they cross often between the borders of Myanmar and Yunnan. They, the Kachin, Wa, Palaung, Kokang etc. are essentially Yunnanese so there will always be a link. Historically, Beijing, whether under the Song, Ming, Manchurian Qing or communists, have always seen these people as loyal babarians who can be manipulated to keep the Burmese under check. The last time we fought a war 250 years ago, it was a scramble to recruit these various people to our respective sides.

In the modern day, however, the concern with China is more about economic dependence rather than politicking with the ethnics. I don't think what they are doing is proper interventionism.

@JamieOng.Burma @Aung Zaya what do you guys think?


Ah, thanks for the insight bro :tup:. The article I've quoted from made reference to another report. And that report made it sounded like supporting the UWSA can provide China with some leverage on the Myanmar officials.

Here are some quotes from the report:

Strengthening Wa defensive capabilities while at the same sending a sharp message to Naypyidaw appears
consistent with Beijing's broad policy towards the UWSA over recent decades. This has centred essentially on
maintaining stability along its south-western border by providing the UWSA with capabilities sufficient to deter
Tatmadaw ambitions to reassert government control over the autonomous special regions. At the same time,
sustaining a powerful cross-border proxy has afforded Beijing a degree of leverage in dealings with Myanmar's
central government that has never been more in evidence than now.

The need for a credible UWSA deterrent rose sharply with the arrest in October 2004 and subsequent imprisonment of Lieutenant-General Khin Nyunt, intelligence chief of Myanmar's then military regime and
architect of the ceasefires with ethnic armies. The ouster of Lt Gen Khin Nyunt (who was released in January
2012), who had maintained good relations with Beijing, paved the way for the rise of more hawkish generals,
most notably General Maung Aye, with no love for China and determined to reassert central government control
along Myanmar's borders.

Following Tatmadaw demands for all ethnic ceasefire forces to either disarm or accept integration into the
national military structure as Tatmadaw-commanded border guard forces, tensions rose in 2009. In August that
year, in defiance of Chinese appeals for border stability, Tatmadaw forces moved suddenly against the weakest
link in the chain of former CPB factions, the so-called Myanmar National Democratic Alliance Army (MNDAA)
based in the ethnic-Chinese Kokang region (SR 1), north of the Wa area.

Brushing weak MNDAA forces aside, the Tatmadaw takeover of Kokang drove more than 30,000 refugees into
temporary camps in China, soured relations with Beijing, and raised the threat of further offensives against other
ethnic groups that refused integration as state border guard forces. Along the UWSA-Tatmadaw front lines, both
sides reinforced in preparation for a war that, in the event, did not occur.

By contrast, three years later, the prospect of war in eastern Shan State has declined notably. Indeed, with the
Tatmadaw currently bogged down in a costly and seemingly open-ended conflict with the KIA in Kachin State to
the north, the chances of an offensive campaign by government forces against the Wa are lower than they have
been for years.

To this extent, it is difficult to interpret this year's sudden and unprecedented reinforcement of UWSA as
anything other than a reaction to the reverses China has suffered in Myanmar. These have surfaced from a
rising tide of anti-Chinese popular sentiment, which the government of President Thein Sein appears ill-
prepared to hold in check. Naypyidaw's abrupt suspension in September 2011 of the USD3.6 billion dollar
Myitsone dam project in Kachin State, in which the China Power Investment Corporation was heavily invested,
was the first and most striking reflection of unpalatable new realities. As Chinese analyst Yun Sun, a visiting
fellow at the Brookings Institute in Washington wrote in an October 2011 article in Asia Times Online: "Thein
Sein's surprise decision has been interpreted by many Chinese as a serious betrayal that should not be
brooked without some sort of retribution.". ....

.....
There are strong indications that the message China appears to be sending through its reinforcement of the
UWSA has been heard and taken to heart by some in Naypyidaw. Recent comments made by Aung Min, the
minister for the President's Office and the government's point-man in negotiations with the ethnic minorities,
were particularly revealing. During a 23 November public meeting with Latpadaung protesters demanding a
complete closure of the project, the minister was seen on a video clip later posted online asserting that, "we do
not dare to have a row with China. If they feel annoyed with the shut-down of their projects and resume their
support to the communists, the economy in border areas would backslide. So you'd better think seriously."

Given that the Communist Party has been defunct since 1989, there is little doubt Aung Min was referring to
support to the UWSA. What he did not say, but almost certainly knew, was that support had already been
resumed several months earlier.


Source: Anthony Davis. State of Wa, Jane's Intelligence Review, (Vol. 25, I.1).

I guess, they might have overemphasised China's leverage with the UWSA. Keep in mind this report was from 2013. We can bring this to the Myanmar discussion thread.
 
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hahaha you are funny LOL.

So citing a scholarly source is the same as blaming things on others? and it's "some kind of weakness"? LOL

The book I quoted from was written by a PhD and published by Springer.

But in your school, did they teach you that citing scholarly source is a weakness??? hahahaha.
Who's your professor? Kim Jong un?

hahahahaha



I think it's like a herd mentality thing going on with some of these members. Some members are not even interested in anything about politics, economy, military, etc. They are only here to type one-liner or one-paragrapher to fit in with the herd.

If some one strays from the herd, or being perceived as an enemy attacking the herd, they will jump in with personal attacks lol. I've seen plenty of Chinese members being accused of being an Indian or Viet because they don't tow the party line LOL.

Anyway, like most herds, they are easily manipulated and provoked. So sometime I enjoy poking at them just for a laugh.



Jane's has good reputation. They are not Kanwa. The article I quoted from referenced another report. Here's what they said regarding weapons transfer to the UWSA in that report:



And here is a picture of those armoured vehicles from sina.com :

342_24039_456524.jpg



****://slide.mil.news.sina.com.cn/l/slide_8_342_33062.html#p=1

@alaungphaya can probably confirm that those are UWSA flags?

As you can see, these vehicles are new. I can agree with Jane's analysis that these kind of military equipments can not be transferred through the black market without the Chinese authority noticing them.

It's different from the middle east where the black market there receive arms from corrupt Arab officials that are beyond the control of the Chinese authority. In Myanmar's case, the black market is inside China itself and the Chinese authority should be able to notice these major cross-border transfers.

However, our Burmese members probably have a more accurate picture of what's going on (or maybe not, they could be CIA troll :partay:).





Ah, thanks for the insight bro :tup:. The article I've quoted from made reference to another report. And that report made it sounded like supporting the UWSA can provide China with some leverage on the Myanmar officials.

Here are some quotes from the report:



I guess, they might have overemphasised China's leverage with the UWSA. Keep in mind this report was from 2013. We can bring this to the Myanmar discussion thread.

Maybe I'm the one downplaying the situation. The Wa definitely provide a leverage in government as their leaders are very rich and do a lot of business with a lot of the crooks in government. But Chinese economic dependence is more of a concern.

It saddens me though that they are so adamant about continuing their little narco-principality instead of trying to build a stronger country together. Despite their drug money, poverty is rife in their jungle outpost. There are orphanages in Yangon that are especially for Wa and Kokang children.
 
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Maybe I'm the one downplaying the situation. The Wa definitely provide a leverage in government as their leaders are very rich and do a lot of business with a lot of the crooks in government. But Chinese economic dependence is more of a concern.

It saddens me though that they are so adamant about continuing their little narco-principality instead of trying to build a stronger country together. Despite their drug money, poverty is rife in their jungle outpost. There are orphanages in Yangon that are especially for Wa and Kokang children.

Capture.PNG


According to Chinese sources, Wa state eradicated drug trade.

缅甸佤邦焚烧毒品向世人表示禁毒决心<font color=red>(图)</font> 博讯新闻,简体中文新闻
组图:缅北金三角佤邦举办禁毒大会_新闻_腾讯网

I have travelled to Thailand side of Golden triangle and met many refugees from Myanmar. They accuse Tatmadaw as rapist. They said you guys rape their women and burn their houses.
 
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According to Chinese sources, Wa state eradicated drug trade.

缅甸佤邦焚烧毒品向世人表示禁毒决心<font color=red>(图)</font> 博讯新闻,简体中文新闻
组图:缅北金三角佤邦举办禁毒大会_新闻_腾讯网

I have travelled to Thailand side of Golden triangle and met many refugees from Myanmar. They accuse Tatmadaw as rapist. They said you guys rape their women and burn their houses.
Probably true. The Tatmadaw have done some terrible things. But the Wa definitely hasn't eliminated the drug trade. It's their most profitable trade. I would presume it is a show to appease the Chinese who are complaining about drugs.
 
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Probably true. The Tatmadaw have done some terrible things. But the Wa definitely hasn't eliminated the drug trade. It's their most profitable trade. I would presume it is a show to appease the Chinese who are complaining about drugs.

It is really difficult to find out truth regarding Myanmar and I am trying to verify all Chinese sources.

It seems to me that even PRC acknowledge that the centralization of Myanmar is inevitable.

But it is strange that PRC is supply the Wa, meanwhile, supply weapon to the Myanmese government. Not too sure how she can pull that off without antagonizing both parties. Maybe you can comment on that.

Also it seems puzzling that many Myanmese warlord while holding fief in their villages are able to walk in and out of Yangon, doing business and making monies. There seems to be somewhat a extremely convoluted relationship between PRC, Myanmese government and warlords.
 
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It is really difficult to find out truth regarding Myanmar and I am trying to verify all Chinese sources.

It seems to me that even PRC acknowledge that the centralization of Myanmar is inevitable.

But it is strange that PRC is supply the Wa, meanwhile, supply weapon to the Myanmese government. Not too sure how she can pull that off without antagonizing both parties. Maybe you can comment on that.

Also it seems puzzling that many Myanmese warlord while holding fief in their villages are able to walk in and out of Yangon, doing business and making monies. There seems to be somewhat a extremely convoluted relationship between PRC, Myanmese government and warlords.

Yeah. This has been the way of things for centuries. These people can't decide if they want to be Chinese or Burmese. They will travel between Kunming and Yangon on business without a problem. The relationship is a load of horse trading between all sides. Eventually, these people will end their opposition to central power and will get their own semi-autonomous regions. But Wa territory is very small so it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. It's the Kachin situation that is pissing me off.
 
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hahaha you are funny LOL.

So citing a scholarly source is the same as blaming things on others? and it's "some kind of weakness"? LOL

The book I quoted from was written by a PhD and published by Springer.

But in your school, did they teach you that citing scholarly source is a weakness??? hahahaha.
Who's your professor? Kim Jong un?

hahahahaha



I think it's like a herd mentality thing going on with some of these members. Some members are not even interested in anything about politics, economy, military, etc. They are only here to type one-liner or one-paragrapher to fit in with the herd.

If some one strays from the herd, or being perceived as an enemy attacking the herd, they will jump in with personal attacks lol. I've seen plenty of Chinese members being accused of being an Indian or Viet because they don't tow the party line LOL.

Anyway, like most herds, they are easily manipulated and provoked. So sometime I enjoy poking at them just for a laugh.



Jane's has good reputation. They are not Kanwa. The article I quoted from referenced another report. Here's what they said regarding weapons transfer to the UWSA in that report:



And here is a picture of those armoured vehicles from sina.com :

342_24039_456524.jpg



****://slide.mil.news.sina.com.cn/l/slide_8_342_33062.html#p=1

@alaungphaya can probably confirm that those are UWSA flags?

As you can see, these vehicles are new. I can agree with Jane's analysis that these kind of military equipments can not be transferred through the black market without the Chinese authority noticing them.

It's different from the middle east where the black market there receive arms from corrupt Arab officials that are beyond the control of the Chinese authority. In Myanmar's case, the black market is inside China itself and the Chinese authority should be able to notice these major cross-border transfers.

However, our Burmese members probably have a more accurate picture of what's going on (or maybe not, they could be CIA troll :partay:).





Ah, thanks for the insight bro :tup:. The article I've quoted from made reference to another report. And that report made it sounded like supporting the UWSA can provide China with some leverage on the Myanmar officials.

Here are some quotes from the report:



I guess, they might have overemphasised China's leverage with the UWSA. Keep in mind this report was from 2013. We can bring this to the Myanmar discussion thread.
They may mentioned about the policy, but the word "welcome" is your own.
 
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Yeah. This has been the way of things for centuries. These people can't decide if they want to be Chinese or Burmese. They will travel between Kunming and Yangon on business without a problem. The relationship is a load of horse trading between all sides. Eventually, these people will end their opposition to central power and will get their own semi-autonomous regions. But Wa territory is very small so it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. It's the Kachin situation that is pissing me off.

Why dont your central government catch these guys and throw them into cage when they are in big cities to make business deals?

Or simply denied their access to big cities.
 
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Why dont your central government catch these guys and throw them into cage when they are in big cities to make business deals?

Or simply denied their access to big cities.

There's no gain in that. That will create a power vacuum back where they come from and they will cause more problems. There is also money to be made by making deals with these people. Even some of the Burmese elite strike business deals with these people. I think the gov. are willing to tolerate them as long as they don't do anything outside of their jungles. I can't remember the last time the Wa clashed with the Tatmadaw. These wars we are fighting are more piecemeal than anything. I think we've gone beyond the point where all it will take is a Burmese army marching into their cities to quell the resistance. It's a matter of winning hearts and minds but punishing them for any excesses. The Kokang are a good example. They live semi-autnomously but when they get out of control, the Tatmadaw came down hard on them.

More generally, you'd be surprised at how life carries on in general despite all these conflicts. Far from being the eternally bitter enemies, people in Myanmar generally carry on with their lives. You find Kachin, Kayin, Wa, Kokang, Shan etc. in all the cities of the country just going about their business.
 
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I heared many people in Kachin state are not ethnic Kachins,they are Lisu,they are Nu people,,they are Durung,and there are even a small minority of Tibetans,and many of those people move further south to Mandalay,those people adopted Yunnanese Mandarin as their language,the Burmese may mistaken them as Yunnanese Han,but in fact,they are not
 
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How do you mean, bro?
My understanding is that Kokangs were wiped out by Tatmandaw successful military campaign 3-4 years ago, when Kokang's capital fell to Myanmar army's hand. Almost all their population, whose language is Mandarin in both written and spoken, freed to China. Therefore, I think there is no more Kokang. Am I right?
 
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My understanding is that Kokangs were wiped out by Tatmandaw successful military campaign 3-4 years ago, when Kokang's capital fell to Myanmar army's hand. Almost all their population, whose language is Mandarin in both written and spoken, freed to China. Therefore, I think there is no more Kokang. Am I right?
:what: I don't know how you derived that, bro. The Kokang are very much going strong. They were punished in 2009 for some reason. I'm guessing something to do with making weapons but that's in the past. Infact, last week they ambushed a bunch of Burmese soldiers in a surprise attack. Back to their old tricks. Which the government will no doubt tolerate.

1,000 acres in Kokang specified as SEZ - The Nation


1,000 acres in Kokang specified as SEZ

Myanmar Eleven October 20, 2014 6:09 pm
The Myanmar Investment Commission (MIC) has set aside more than 1,000 acres in the Kokang self-administered area on the Myanmar-China border for a special economic zone under the foreign investment law on October 3, sources from the commission said.


The foreign investment law prohibits or restricts foreign investments in an area within 10 miles from border areas except a special economic zone allowed by the union government. However, the MIC can grant permission to make investments in the prohibited or restricted area in the interest of the state and citizens, especially the ethnic population, by asking permission from the union government, the law states.

The MIC has allowed Kokant Mar Li Par Development Company to implement a special economic zone in the Kokang self-administered area on August 15 based on remarks and consent from respective government organisations and departments.

The SEZ will be implemented by a joint-venture between Kokang self-administered government and Kokant Mar Li Par Development Company in Laukkaing district to clear land plots, sell and hire land.

Kokant Mar Li Par Development Company is registered with the MIC since January 2013 and is based in Laukkaing. The Kokang self-administered area is located in Northern Shan state, bordering with China.
 
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