Is a Secular Pakistan the solution?

[liontk]

Firstly, what was supposed to be doesnt allways happen...In secular France, it claims to be intolerant of religion but repeatedly ONLY drops the hammer on Islam ...From headscarf to even the size of your skirt if it is short enough or not!

Even in secular European societies the church still rings its bells everyday (not just Sunday)

Even in Secular WEST, Christmas and Easter are big holidays so where is secularism when the whole govt gets to rest on pagan- Christian holidays? When in courts people still need to put their hands on their religious books, when the basic morals like welfare of some countries is somewhat explained 1400 yrs ago by Islam??

When making education compulsory was also practiced by Islam 1400 yrs ago....

We have lost our way the West have come to a 1400 yr old theoretical practices (which we were given freely and forgot)....modified it a bit and labelled it Secularism


Just because some of us do something doesnt mean it is right and should be legalized and enforced!

long time no see akhelios, anyhow i don't want to start an old debate but i will say that there has never been a proscribed system of government in the quran and if there is this detailed system somewhere please do link it to me. Western secularism cannot work with in pakistani context and i agree but pakistan still has to find its own pluralistic or its tolerant government because at this point i am sick of this. how many shiites have to bleed for this country and as far as west is concerned, we are the light and the enlightenment that is leading this world. The modern world is a testament to west's success and so please be respectful before making generalizations about the west.

 

[Pakistanisage]

Why not take a survey ?

 

[Dubious]

long time no see akhelios, anyhow i don't want to start an old debate but i will say that there has never been a proscribed system of government in the quran and if there is this detailed system somewhere please do link it to me. Western secularism cannot work with in pakistani context and i agree but pakistan still has to find its own pluralistic or its tolerant government because at this point i am sick of this.

1) Qurans laws as a whole

read the whole book- there are numerous of laws for eating, dressing, distribution of possession of the dead without a will which are for individual level then

there are laws like marriage, welfare - dont ignore the needy, education = ponder on gods signs is not gonna happen on the road - which can be equated to individual and social level as well as tips for governance

We have laws like how to deal with times of war, how to punish (of which the harshest are present and reminder for being merciful is always followed)

If one cant take these as signs for living a life on individual, society and government level, then I dont have much to say...

However, the prophet's life was a living example of governance where you show mercy, treat everyone equal and be just if need be that is when trouble comes....A perfect balance no favouratism, no sense of inequality, and respect for mankind.

The modern world is a testament to west's success and so please be respectful before making generalizations about the west.

I have also talked "for" (on different threads when it needs to be addressed) not just against the "modern world" but the very fact that some people refuse to see the problems doesnt mean they dont exist

how many shiites have to bleed for this country and as far as west is concerned, we are the light and the enlightenment that is leading this world.

I am not in favour of people dying be they shiites or sunni....I dont discriminate....A life lost is a human life lost irrespective of what they practiced.....

As for what the west thinks of you, we can read their media of painting 2 million plus people and equating them to some nut cases whom MAJORITY of sunni ALSO dont support....So I am not sure what you are getting at....What they are doing is not a sunni and shia (sect) thing is on a higher level called a religion

 

[liontk]

1) Qurans laws as a whole

read the whole book- there are numerous of laws for eating, dressing, distribution of possession of the dead without a will which are for individual level then

there are laws like marriage, welfare - dont ignore the needy, education = ponder on gods signs is not gonna happen on the road - which can be equated to individual and social level as well as tips for governance

We have laws like how to deal with times of war, how to punish (of which the harshest are present and reminder for being merciful is always followed)

If one cant take these as signs for living a life on individual, society and government level, then I dont have much to say...

However, the prophet's life was a living example of governance where you show mercy, treat everyone equal and be just if need be that is when trouble comes....A perfect balance no favouratism, no sense of inequality, and respect for mankind.

I am not arguing about the social context and islamic laws associated with those aspects and i think the five school of thoughts do a decent job in that. I am talking about a political evolution of a system and one in today's context not 7th century one. I am saying this with all due respect that the world today has changed since then. The world has a system of government that is complex and it requires an institutional evolution and so using childish slogans like islam has the answer is very simple and naive in nature. I believe dr Yasir qadhi has infact done a lecture on blant slogans and no concrete solution.

Also if you think it was so rosy back then, all you have to do is analyze the events that unfolded after the death of our prophet. As a matter of fact, prophet's grandson and his family got butchered in a political battle and so it wasn't all rosy back then either. what we have learn today from the evolution of governing systems as a science is that religion and politics are a deadly cocktail mix and a mix that we see implode time and time again. Politics is something that can corrupt even the most pure faiths and hence must be separated as such. If you do not want to open your eyes fine but atleast talk with facts on this so called pseudo "islamic system" that you state and tell me in which modern context that it has properly worked in. In my humble understanding, islam proscribes a set of principles and any system that is within the bounds of such limits can be considered islamic to say the least.

As with the recent example of ISIS, i am well aware of what alot of ahle sunnah think about shiites and this recent attack in pakistan is a just another evidence of the growing infiltration of saudi arabia/wahabi filth in pakistan's main stream society. Education is the solution to the quagmire that pakistan has found in and government system as such is no exception and must be changed with time and hence we have political think tanks in west that recommend certain changes that must be implement from time and time again. So in conclusion what i am trying to say in simple terms is that pakistan has to reconcile modernity and islam. It is not a difficult task but it will take time for institutionalized evolution to take place and once again i will repeat that using simple slogans like "ISLAM HAS ALL THE ANSWERS" is naive to say the least. I am not doubting your sincerity but khwarijites also used such slogans in the times of Caliph Ali and we saw the results of that.

 

[Dubious]

I am talking about a political evolution of a system and one in today's context not 7th century one. I am saying this with all due respect that the world today has changed since then. The world has a system of government that is complex and it requires an institutional evolution and so using childish slogans like islam has the answer is very simple and naive in nature. I believe dr Yasir qadhi has infact done a lecture on blant slogans and no concrete solution.

You do know there is no single book on Shariah? It is a law DERIVED from the Quran and hadith....and during the "7th century or should I say when people understood Islam (somewhat better)" the job of the ulema was to revise the shariah to suit the situation...

MOST of the laws which you read in the paper are the EXTREME versions necessary FOR EXTREME CRIMINALS....rest of the many pages book and a 4 yrs degree doesnt revolve around 5-6 media picked laws...

Also if you think it was so rosy back then, all you have to do is analyze the events that unfolded after the death of our prophet. As a matter of fact, prophet's grandson and his family got butchered in a political battle and so it wasn't all rosy back then either.

Yes it was as you said political nothing to do with religion....It is human nature to be greedy or be influenced by evil ....AND hence why you have the repentance which even a pure prophet read it so how is it a normal human like you will NEVER do anything evil and doing astagfar?

what we have learn today from the evolution of governing systems as a science is that religion and politics are a deadly cocktail mix and a mix that we see implode time and time again.

Honestly speaking that model ONLY took into account the crusades where the pope was the absolute power...and hence the quote absolute power corrupts absolutely...Mind you even the democratic system is not all rosy...There is no guarantee in ANY system run by human beings coz we aree corrupt to the core!

Politics is something that can corrupt even the most pure faiths and hence must be separated as such.

True....

If you do not want to open your eyes fine but atleast talk with facts on this so called pseudo "islamic system" that you state and tell me in which modern context that it has properly worked in. In my humble understanding, islam proscribes a set of principles and any system that is within the bounds of such limits can be considered islamic to say the least.

Yes, I agree it can be considered and I do consider the self developed systems in the west (not as a whole but portions of it) as Islamic...Welfare system - practiced even during the khalifah time , compulsory education, basic rights for every human, rights to practice your faith can all be found in the Quran too...Just because today's Muslims are NOT following it, does it mean it failed or it was never tried?

Honestly speaking, I could have gone down to your condescending tone and told you the same as to opening your eyes to the differences between ISLAM IS and what is practiced in the name of Islam ...And using your tone, you may close your eyes to obvious ...

As with the recent example of ISIS

So theoretically, your understanding of Islam is what ISIS practices? And here I am the one who is called the terrorist supporter when I am the one who claims they dont even practice humanity and here you are equating what they practice to Islam? wow!


And I am the one closing my eyes? Interesting...

So in conclusion what i am trying to say in simple terms is that pakistan has to reconcile modernity and islam.

My only question is WHEN was Islam tried in Pakistan? No not what people claim to be Islam but people reading about Islam themselves not being ordered about it? When that system is NEVER tried how can you declare it a failure?

 

[Tiger Genie]

Every system of law and jurisprudence has plus and minus due to evolution over time. Modern systems therefore try to take the best of each and make it fair and just for all. Pushing anyone system on a diverse population is by definition unfair whether it be sharia or Hammurabi or Hindu codes.

India has tried separate codes for each major religions but while that has satisfied communities and their religious belief s but that has also resulted in slowet economic and social development of those groups.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

I think the solution is very simple for Pakistan.

1. Implement Islamic system and law.

2. That raises the question who is going to interpret and implement the Islamic system.

3. I suggest Ahl al-Hadith school of thought is made mandatory. All laws and interpretation is only allowed by clergy following the Ahl al-Hadith.

4. All other school thoughts are banned. These include Barelvi, Sufi, Shia and the other myriad groups because they do not follow true Islam.

5. Only true Islam will work in Pakistan and we all know that Ahl al-Hadith is true Islam the rest are misguided and munafiqeen.

6. Therefore clerics from Ahl-al-Hadith are to be only employed by the Islamic state of Pakistan.


@syedali73 Comments please. Can you see my perfect prescription for the Islamic state. Have you ever read the Munir Commission Report 1952? If you have not you need to read it in particular the part that tries to establish the definition of a Muslim.

Edit: I give everybody three words as clues to where everything hinges - Who, Interpret, Implement

 

[Shamain]

No secularism isnt the solution.
It in itself is a problem.

 

[Tiger Genie]

I think the solution is very simple for Pakistan.

1. Implement Islamic system and law.

2. That raises the question who is going to interpret and implement the Islamic system.

3. I suggest Ahl al-Hadith school of thought is made mandatory. All laws and interpretation is only allowed by clergy following the Ahl al-Hadith.

4. All other school thoughts are banned. These include Barelvi, Sufi, Shia and the other myriad groups because they do not follow true Islam.

5. Only true Islam will work in Pakistan and we all know that Ahl al-Hadith is true Islam the rest are misguided and munafiqeen.

6. Therefore clerics from Ahl-al-Hadith are to be only employed by the Islamic state of Pakistan.


@syedali73 Comments please. Can you see my perfect prescription for the Islamic state. Have you ever read the Munir Commission Report 1952? If you have not you need to read it in particular the part that tries to establish the definition of a Muslim.

Edit: I give everybody three words as clues to where everything hinges - Who, Interpret, Implement

But WHY do you think that is feasible and WHY do you think it will solve problems of present day?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

@Tiger Genie

Clue is below. Look carefully.

Satire

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

Why not take a survey ?

A Muslim child knows if you deny a zabar, zir, in the Quran you become a Kafir. We all have this basic Islamic knowledge, right?

What if you DENY the Sharia (Islamic Law/System) as the Supreme Law/System? Secularism is in conflict with Islamic Law.

So, what about those Muslims who vote against Islamic Law?

Ordered to follow Sharia

"But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (Muhammad, peace be upon him) as a judge in all disputes between them, and find no resistance against your decisions, and accept (the decisions) with full submission." [Holy Quran 4:65]

"It is not fitting for the believing man nor for the believing woman, that whenever Allah and His Messenger have decided any matter, that they should have any other opinion." [Holy Quran 33:36]

Tafseer:

Whatever Allah and His Messenger have set out as being the Way of Islam is incumbent on the believer, man or woman to follow completely. One must consciously and conscientiously give oneself to the service of Allah.

 

[Tiger Genie]

@Tiger Genie

Clue is below. Look carefully.

Satire

ah! good one

 

[Koovie]

Had Pakistan been a truly secular nation, it would not be in the current mess and probably be decades ahead of its current reality.

Mixing religion with governance is the worst thing you can do.... especially with a highly religious population.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

Pakistan is a secular state. From its English common Law to the political process. Pakistan or for that matter no current state in existence has anything to do with Islam i.e. Laws and politics...