Is a Secular Pakistan the solution?

[ghoul]

Pakistani seculars/far-left has one major flaw though. They tend to be ultra-nationalist. In Karachi, majority of race related violence is spearheaded by secular parties.

 

[wiseone2]

Pakistani seculars/far-left has one major flaw though. They tend to be ultra-nationalist. In Karachi, majority of race related violence is spearheaded by secular parties.

In pakistan secular parties == ethnic parties
it is not true in many parts of the world

 

[Salman Arif]

@KarachiNationalist

Indonesia and Malaysia both chose Secular paths, and are secular Republic States

Pakistan is a Islamic Republic. Even Turkey the most powerful Muslim Majority Country is Secular and doesn't have a state religion.


When you try and mix Religion with Politics thats where things go wrong, I hope people understand this. State should be separate from Religion.

Iqbal said: "Europe ki ghulami pe razamand hoa too-Mujh ko gila tujh se hae Europe se nahein"
(It was you who accepted the slavery of Europe, I complain you, not Europe)

AND "Jalal e Padshahi ho ya jamhoori tamasha ho-Juda ho deen siasat se to reh jati hae changezi"
(Whether there is a monarchy or democracy, when religion is separated from politics then what left is CHANGEZI(brutality referring Gengiz Khan))

AND "Tumhari tehzeeb ap apne khnajar se khudkushi kare gi- Jo shakh e nazuk pe ho ga ashyana na paedar ho ga"
(Your culture will suicide by its own hands, home built on weak branches(Having weak foundations) will not be durable)
Brothers,
How can one nation progress by following the direction opposite to its leaders?
Besides when Muslims rose in the time of Prophet (PBUH) and Ottomans, were they secular? Muslims only progressed to the greatest extent by following the golden principles of Islam that they are not doing now. How can you blame Islam? Religion is not problem, extremism is.

 

[Providence]

secularism in pak would mean pakistan as a nation has failed !

 

[Icarus]

secularism in pak would mean pakistan as a nation has failed !

I would contend that a secular Pakistan would mean that the state has evolved, the Nordic countries never started out as they are now, evident from the cross that their flags still bear. The state and its ideology is not static, it is fluid and constantly is constantly shaping/being shaped by the international system as well as its internal politics.

 

[Providence]

I would contend that a secular Pakistan would mean that the state has evolved, the Nordic countries never started out as they are now, evident from the cross that their flags still bear. The state and its ideology is not static, it is fluid and constantly is constantly shaping/being shaped by the international system as well as its internal politics.

totally agreed. Even our voting rights have changed for the better over 200 years. But I don't think pakistan people are ready for secularism.

 

[Icarus]

totally agreed. Even our voting rights have changed for the better over 200 years. But I don't think pakistan people are ready for secularism.

The vast majority of people won't really be affected either way, Pakistani society is surprisingly pluralistic and very receptive towards groups that might be considered 'others'. Its the ultra-conservative elements that pose a challenge to efforts to make Pakistan a state that offers equal rights to all its citizens. Their survival depends on politics of exclusion, and they will naturally try to create discord among the population in order to prove their point but the state has to be more powerful than the various power groups that reside within it, and if push comes to shove, must be prepared to assert its authority with complete moral conviction.

 

[Salman Arif]

I would contend that a secular Pakistan would mean that the state has evolved, the Nordic countries never started out as they are now, evident from the cross that their flags still bear. The state and its ideology is not static, it is fluid and constantly is constantly shaping/being shaped by the international system as well as its internal politics.

With due respect,
There is more than enough vacuum for Pakistan to evolve without abandoning religion. There is a term called "Ijtihad". We have basic principles set by our founders and more than enough room to to evolve within the boundary of these principles.

The point is we cannot leave our entity, our heritage attained after countless sacrifices. Evolution should be directed in a right direction. Evolution should not mean that you are leaving your ideology and entity set by founders of your country and following something that is exactly opposite in the direction of our ideology.

We are not aware of our foundation and the struggle behind it. We are not aware of our religion and what founders of our country said, because we haven't studied them, the biggest blunder, or if we did, we did it blindly. Any nation progresses by following its founders or leaders, not the ideology of those who enslaved them. You take the positive points and leave the negative ones and that is how you learn lesson from other nations. 100% blind following of ideology of anything that is yours or not yours results in the death of a nation which indeed is a big mistake. You have to make amendments but not by abandoning your existence.

All these points are explained in detail by founders of Pakistan and religion. One-sided picture is not a solution.

As Iqbal said:"takleed ki rawish se behter hae khudkushi-rasta bhi dhoond khizer ka soda bhi chor de"
(Suicide is better than the tradition of blind following-Find your own way, not by relying on Khizer(referred for guiding lost people))

 

[Kompromat]

It's not

 

[Icarus]

With due respect,
There is more than enough vacuum for Pakistan to evolve without abandoning religion. There is a term called "Ijtihad". We have basic principles set by our founders and more than enough room to to evolve within the boundary of these principles.

The point is we cannot leave our entity, our heritage attained after countless sacrifices. Evolution should be directed in a right direction. Evolution should not mean that you are leaving your ideology and entity set by founders of your country and following something that is exactly opposite in the direction of our ideology.

We are not aware of our foundation and the struggle behind it. We are not aware of our religion and what founders of our country said, because we haven't studied them, the biggest blunder, or if we did, we did it blindly. Any nation progresses by following its founders or leaders, not the ideology of those who enslaved them. You take the positive points and leave the negative ones and that is how you learn lesson from other nations. 100% blind following of ideology of anything that is yours or not yours results in the death of a nation which indeed is a big mistake. You have to make amendments but not by abandoning your existence.

All these points are explained in detail by founders of Pakistan and religion. One-sided picture is not a solution.

As Iqbal said:"takleed ki rawish se behter hae khudkushi-rasta bhi dhoond khizer ka soda bhi chor de"
(Suicide is better than the tradition of blind following-Find your own way, not by relying on Khizer(referred for guiding lost people))

Its not about abandoning religion, no body has to give up their faith in a secular system, its just that the systemic marginalization based on any social fractures be they faith, sect or ethnicity are discarded as tools to create preferred and non-preferred groups, thereby allowing everyone equal access to all opportunities.

 

[WAJsal]

@Icarus , what differences do you see between a secular Pakistan and an ongoing system in Pakistan ? initially for me if we do turn into a secular state , a real difference will be visible after quite some time . Don't forget it won't be easy , how will one tackle the likes of Mollanah Fazal- ur- rahman , so it's a long shot . Yes the perception of inequality between different sects will fade , which would be a great thing .

 

[HariPrasad]

Very difficult to say. Muslim country can not be secular. Evenif they adopt the secularism in principle , inherently they shall remain higly communal and thinking that others shall be given protection and same rights is a is a foolishness of highest order.

 

[Icarus]

@Icarus , what differences do you see between a secular Pakistan and an ongoing system in Pakistan ? initially for me if we do turn into a secular state , a real difference will be visible after quite some time . Don't forget it won't be easy , how will one tackle the likes of Mollanah Fazal- ur- rahman , so it's a long shot . Yes the perception of inequality between different sects will fade , which would be a great thing .

Well, initially we'll have to contend with small victories, like maybe seeing a christian advisor to the PM, a ban on using religion in political rallies and so on. You might have heard that the Diamer election has been agreed upon by PTI, JUIF and PMLN to be contested on the grounds that women will not be allowed to vote. The state and political parties playing into the hands of the SSP like this sickens me.

 

[WAJsal]

Well, initially we'll have to contend with small victories, like maybe seeing a christian advisor to the PM, a ban on using religion in political rallies and so on

In a huge picture that is a huge victory , a Christian advisory . Not bad .

You might have heard that the Diamer election has been agreed upon by PTI, JUIF and PMLN to be contested on the grounds that women will not be allowed to vote. The state and political parties playing into the hands of the SSP like this sickens me.

You have got to be kidding me ? is that even constitutional . I hate to see something like this , especially in GB . Chilasi blood runs through my veins and i hate to see something like this happening . What have women done to deserve this abuse , this ain't stone age . Stupid blood-sucking political parties .What was the logic applied behind not allowing women to vote .

Anyway Icarus i will make a thread on Gilgit-Baltistan as a fifth province , will maybe post it tomorrow , do share your thoughts on it .

 

[Icarus]

In a huge picture that is a huge victory , a Christian advisory . Not bad .

You have got to be kidding me ? is that even constitutional . I hate to see something like this , especially in GB . Chilasi blood runs through my veins and i hate to see something like this happening . What have women done to deserve this abuse , this ain't stone age . Stupid blood-sucking political parties .What was the logic applied behind not allowing women to vote .

Anyway Icarus i will make a thread on Gilgit-Baltistan as a fifth province , will maybe post it tomorrow , do share your thoughts on it .

Its absolutely unconstitutional and there is absolutely no way to justify this, I too hate to see the Northern Areas walk down this path, such a progressive people are condemning themselves to the same mistake that the people of Punjab and KPK have made in the past and paying a heavy price for.
Yeah, I'd love to share my thoughts on GB as a separate province.