Is 5.56 mm bullet a wrong choice over7.62 mm ?

[Babbar-Khalsa]

for 5.56 :-

1. light and small round , so can be carried in more numbers .
2. people have reported that they are more accurate in automatic mode.
3. Less metal is used so more numbers of bullets can be made given same quantity of lead.
4. People argue that it doesnot kill , it injures and the pain is unbearable...
5. Currently a NATO standard and used by modern armies ....

for 7.62 :-

1. Heavy and bigger round .
2. They are highly accurate when used in snipers ....but in automatic mode ..they give much recoil.
3. a time tested bullet used since world -war 2.
4. Its a killing ray .....a shot at right spot till about 500 m and the target is dead.
5. currently used in limited numbers by armies around the world but extensively used in ak-47 and its variants which is choice of weapons for terrorists.

Are we losing our soldiers because of choice of bullet ?

 

[AUz]

Welcome to the forum!

Might want to introduce yourself.

Western Armies use 5.56mm while Pakistan/Indian Armies still use 7.62 mm bullets....

 

[forcetrip]

5.56 round is an amazing close quarter round. You give some to take the advantages you mentioned above.

 

[gambit]

Look at it this way: Ronald Raygun was nearly killed by a .22 caliber bullet that RICOCHET-ed off the Presidential limousine.

A .22 caliber bullet. From a pistol. Not a rifle. And the bullet bounced off the car before hitting a human being.

How many people have been shot multiple times? Those stories about soldiers in combat who fought on despite being shot more than once are not typical of how soldiers will respond when hit by anything, from bullets to shrapnel. The first instinct is to take cover, the second is to assess for possible injuries, the last is to deal with the injuries. If you are hit multiple times in different areas of your body, it is even more imperative that you stop fighting and care for yourself. Caliber of those hits would be irrelevant at that time. Two hits by two .223 bullets are just as physically and mentally compelling to stop fighting as one hit by a .308 caliber bullet.

From my experience with the USAF SpecOps guys, they prefers the lighter 5.56 mil because they can carry more rounds into combat. Their jobs are not to fight. Combat Controllers can fight but their main job is to provide air traffic controls. Pararescuemen can fight but their main job is to sneak in, grab the pilot, then sneak out. Combat Weathermen can fight but their main job is to provide on-site meteorological data for the other combat services. If they have to fight, they want to disable their opponents quickly so they can relocate. That disablement can include a kill shot and they will try to kill. But if the lighter bullet can inflict sufficient wound to painfully disable and discourage the enemy from pursuing -- it works. Up close and personal it is another issue. At this level of combat, the .40 or .45 calibers are preferred because handgun ammo are limited in carry capacity and range, so you want to kill (first) your enemy ASAP. If you are fighting with a handgun, it is pretty much imminent death situation for both. That is why practically no SpecOps operator of any branch like the 9mm handgun in combat. The 9mm caliber is useful in those 'spray and pray' situations, but not for handgun range fighting.

 

[forcetrip]

I love the .22 round .. Its the best thing to happen since candy. This inexpensive round is a Bad guy stopper .. Specially with the non existent recoil it has you can douse your target in extremely accurate fire. There is no mental condition except insanity which will allow you to be effective under accurate fire no matter what round it is.

 

[gambit]

for 5.56 :-

4. People argue that it doesnot kill , it injures and the pain is unbearable...

You can have the right leg shot by one 5.56, then the left leg shot by one 7.62. Once you recover, come back to the forum and tell us which one is more painful and more likely to discourage you from fighting.

 

[MilSpec]

for 5.56 :-

1. light and small round , so can be carried in more numbers .
2. people have reported that they are more accurate in automatic mode.
3. Less metal is used so more numbers of bullets can be made given same quantity of lead.
4. People argue that it doesnot kill , it injures and the pain is unbearable...
5. Currently a NATO standard and used by modern armies ....

for 7.62 :-

1. Heavy and bigger round .
2. They are highly accurate when used in snipers ....but in automatic mode ..they give much recoil.
3. a time tested bullet used since world -war 2.
4. Its a killing ray .....a shot at right spot till about 500 m and the target is dead.
5. currently used in limited numbers by armies around the world but extensively used in ak-47 and its variants which is choice of weapons for terrorists.

Are we losing our soldiers because of choice of bullet ?

You might be confusing 7.62x 39 used in Ak by 7.62 x 51 nato which is mostly used as a DM/sniper round.

As far as 7.62 x 39 round is concerned, this round is basically a shortened/chopped 7.62x 51 nato round, you can actually use the same bullet in both cartridge.

i will repost from another post;

5.56 x 45 Nato is one of the flatest shooting cartridge with low recoil characteristics. The muzzle velocity is high and effective range is upto 600 yards. The bullet drop is lower compared to 7.62 x 39. For a rifle zeroed at 100 yards, a 65g bullet drops around 19" at 350 yards, following graph shows the traectory at different zeroes.

One of the shortcommings of the 5.56Nato round is due to smaller mass, terminal ballistic and transfer of energy is low. Also due to smaller diameter at shorter ranges, FMJ bullets with high velocity would piece soft tissue creating an .22" entrance wound and exiting at slightly larger dia, but at ranges more than 100 yds the bullet supposedly tumbles inside the body creating a greater damage.


7.62 x 39 is a much larger cartridge, is almost a shortened/chopped version of the 7.62x51mm cartridge. The recoil on the right platforms is very managable, but the common bullets weigh around 123g's hence this heavy bullet looses energy quite rapidly makking it fall substantially at longer ranges. There is a common misconception due to the popular AK 47 that this round is not accurate, nothing could be farther from the truth albiet. The 7.62x39 if zeroed at 100 yds will fall around 64" at 400 yards and almost 115-120 inches making it unsuitable for long range effective shooting. Where this round excels is at terminal billistics with its massive 30 cal diameter. The best engagement range for this round is around 250 yards. I have extensive experience shooting this round and I find quite enjoyable to shoot.

Both the 5.56 and 7.62x39 are excellent cartridges and have their own advantages. 7.62 x 39 is Short engagement range, hard hitting round whereas 5.56 is long engagement range, light , high speed round.

The following graph gives you an idea of ballistics of 5.56 nato (red) . 7.62x39 (green), .308 rem (blue)

P.S. 7.62 nominal diameter can refer to range of cartridges, 7.62x 51mm nato/,308 Win, 7.62 x 39mm (sks/ak47), 7.62x54mmR (mosin nagant), 7.62×25mm Tokarev (TT33/CZ 52), 7.62×38mmR (nagant revolver), 7.62×33mm (0.30 carbine), 7.62x65mmBR/.308 Norma magnum, 7.62 x 70/.300 Lapua Magnum, 7.62×51mmR/ .30 30 Win.

 

[Babbar-Khalsa]

Thanks for your welcome

Well , i am Indian settled in UK now .
Due to some personal reasons i have an attachment to army and armaments .

Indian army is using 5.56 INSAS assault rifles while 7.62 is used in only machine guns now. Don't know much about Pak army but i heard longtime back that they were thinking of modifying their weapons to 5.56 standard.

 

[Sinnerman108]

The K.e carried by the bullet = 1/2 *m *v^2.

Thus for the same size cartridge, which carries the same amount of propellent a lighter bullet will end up with a higher velocity.

F= m *a => a=F/m . The lower the mass the higher would be the accelaration.

The higher the accelaration the higher the resultant velocity.

The higher the velocity, the higher the K.e ( v^2)

Thus the ligher 5.56mm.

 

[Babbar-Khalsa]

Ok....agreed. But i was interested in combat situations .Something like desert or mountain areas. A fire of 7.62 will travel more distance and will be able to penetrate with large stopping force.

 

[Babbar-Khalsa]

Look at it this way: Ronald Raygun was nearly killed by a .22 caliber bullet that RICOCHET-ed off the Presidential limousine.

A .22 caliber bullet. From a pistol. .....

Fine .....but if you are a soldier going to fight the terrorists who are carrying 7.62 . You are face to face now . Lets assume about 300-500 m . Both of you fire . There is much likelihood that his bullet may prove a fatal round than your 5.56.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Ok....agreed. But i was interested in combat situations .Something like desert or mountain areas. A fire of 7.62 will travel more distance and will be able to penetrate with large stopping force.

Actually NO.

The 5.56 will travel more because of the higher velocity and higher kinetic energy.
the 5.56 will travel more because of lower wind resistence.

7.62 will have a more stable trajectory. i.e it is more difficult to change the trajectory of a 7.62 round compared to 5.56.

 

[Babbar-Khalsa]

You can have the right leg shot by one 5.56, then the left leg shot by one 7.62. Once you recover, come back to the forum and tell us which one is more painful and more likely to discourage you from fighting.

Don't know why this idea came to your mind ....anyways .....i was thinking that from a large distance ....7.62 might prove a fatal shot while 5.56 may just inflict injury.....

 

[Babbar-Khalsa]

The K.e carried by the bullet = 1/2 *m *v^2.

Thus for the same size cartridge, which carries the same amount of propellent a lighter bullet will end up with a higher velocity.

F= m *a => a=F/m . The lower the mass the higher would be the accelaration.

The higher the accelaration the higher the resultant velocity.

The higher the velocity, the higher the K.e ( v^2)

Thus the ligher 5.56mm.

I disagree..... while your equation is right .....but 5.56 is 11 gm while 7.62 is 18 gm ....so Force (F) would be higher and thus the K.E would be higher .....thus more penetration power.

 

[gambit]

Fine .....but if you are a soldier going to fight the terrorists who are carrying 7.62 . You are face to face now . Lets assume about 300-500 m . Both of you fire . There is much likelihood that his bullet may prove a fatal round than your 5.56.

The labels 'terrorist' or 'soldier' are irrelevant. At that distance, accuracy and precision are more important than caliber.

The above chart is applicable to everything, from bullets to ballistic warheads to even business strategies. The 5.56 is generally better in accuracy over the 7.62 at that distance. I do not care if the enemy is labeled as 'terrorist' or 'soldier'. If I can deliver even just one 5.56 to his body before he can deliver one 7.62 to me -- I win.

Don't know why this idea came to your mind ....anyways .....i was thinking that from a large distance ....7.62 might prove a fatal shot while 5.56 may just inflict injury.....

Then you can try to take a 5.56 to your torso and see if you can recover. If you do recover, return to the forum and tell us if the damage was serious enough to take you out of the fight.