IRIAF | News and Discussions

[sahureka2]

هواپیمای مسافربری سیمرغ ۷۵ نفره و طول آن از هواپیمای ایران ۱۴۰ بلندتر است.
Simorgh Passenger aircraft is 75 seats and its length is longer than IR 140.


The article does not give the actual the length increase of the passenger simorgh..we can guess by the number of the seats added (25) if considering 5 seat on a row and one meter separation my not very educated guess is 5 extra meters of length!!

Originally the IrAn-140 had 52 passenger + crew seats so calculating that the article indicates it can carry 75 people (assuming including crew) the difference should be 23.
But IrAn-140 each row consists of 4 seats and not 5,

so according to your calculations the Simorgh should be 6 meters longer!!
but comparing the first example of the Simorgh it has 12 windows, while the IrAn-140 has 13 windows,

which leads us to think that there are no 6 meters of difference in the part dedicated to passengers.

Furthermore, if the Iran-140 had power problems with the original turbofans, so much so that it was ordered to reduce the maximum take-off weight, which resulted in a decrease in the number of passengers carried, it suggests that for this hypothetical 75-seat Simorgh , the turboprop used should have higher power, which raises the question:
1)The Iranians have developed a more powerful version of the Motor-Sich AI-30 / Klimov TV3-117VMA-SBM1 turboprop engine
2) either someone supplies or will supply a suitable turboprop for horsepower.

 

[HGV]

Reality check

https://twitter.com/x/status/1676235964937650176

 

[aryobarzan]

Pool daran bedehand be arabha ..Amma pool nadarn barayeh sakhteh havapayma...

 

[TheImmortal]

Not surprising.

Any industrial country with a decent scientific and industrial base can make 1-5 prototypes of a high value item. Proof is actual serial mass production at a feasible economic cost and efficiency.

This quoted individual is saying $2B USD is needed just to get the program up and running to serial production.

Where is Iran supposed to get such funds during massive economic stress? Building a small plane for domestic trips is a luxury good. Iran has much bigger needs and issues at this time.

A possible solution would be a partner that can provide some or all of the capital cost either external (Russia/Iraq/Qatar) or internal (IRGC for military transport plane). Iran could also theoretically pull from its economic development fund to pay for the project, but that would require consensus that this is an immediate national priority need.

This is the real cost of sanctions. We have the capability to build many domestic projects, we simply lack the capital or access to capital markets to fund them. This constrains growth and economic advancement across various sectors of the economy.

Add in factors that many countries deal with such as corruption of state revenues, project management issues, political rivalry and inefficient government spending, and you get a compounded effect.

 

[jauk]

Not surprising.

Any industrial country with a decent scientific and industrial base can make 1-5 prototypes of a high value item. Proof is actual serial mass production at a feasible economic cost and efficiency.

This quoted individual is saying $2B USD is needed just to get the program up and running to serial production.

Where is Iran supposed to get such funds during massive economic stress? Building a small plane for domestic trips is a luxury good. Iran has much bigger needs and issues at this time.

A possible solution would be a partner that can provide some or all of the capital cost either external (Russia/Iraq/Qatar) or internal (IRGC for military transport plane). Iran could also theoretically pull from its economic development fund to pay for the project, but that would require consensus that this is an immediate national priority need.

This is the real cost of sanctions. We have the capability to build many domestic projects, we simply lack the capital or access to capital markets to fund them. This constrains growth and economic advancement across various sectors of the economy.

Add in factors that many countries deal with such as corruption of state revenues, project management issues, political rivalry and inefficient government spending, and you get a compounded effect.

Correct. I hope the mid/long term plan is to create internal wealth and structures for this funding. Iran’s ‘bazaar’ are the OG of investors but they’re conservative. Who else can invest other than bazaar and government? That’s key.

 

[HGV]

$2 billion seems way too high for a 72 seater. For context, development costs for the larger SSJ100 (with a large amount of components being imported from abroad) were estimated at $1 billion.

Iran has already done a lot of the R&D, has a lot of the infrastructure set up and has already completed a full flight test. $200m from here sounds reasonable (not including unit production costs, but those can be incurred only once orders are made).

Unit cost of production should be $10-15m at most (ATR-72 costs $25m per unit).

They should work with domestic airlines to gauge interest to get an idea of potential order numbers. If the interest is there, funds can be allocated from the Iranian SWF to be repaid on a royalty basis (common in the industry). This could also be exported to regional allies (Iraq, Syria, Tajikistan etc).

The key is to treat any funds from the NDFI as an investment - Iranian governments seem to use it as just another source of funds, which is absolutely not how SWFs should operate. Which is probably why it is so small (only $10-25 billion left).

 

[GWXP]

Not surprising.

Any industrial country with a decent scientific and industrial base can make 1-5 prototypes of a high value item. Proof is actual serial mass production at a feasible economic cost and efficiency.

This quoted individual is saying $2B USD is needed just to get the program up and running to serial production.

Where is Iran supposed to get such funds during massive economic stress? Building a small plane for domestic trips is a luxury good. Iran has much bigger needs and issues at this time.

A possible solution would be a partner that can provide some or all of the capital cost either external (Russia/Iraq/Qatar) or internal (IRGC for military transport plane). Iran could also theoretically pull from its economic development fund to pay for the project, but that would require consensus that this is an immediate national priority need.

This is the real cost of sanctions. We have the capability to build many domestic projects, we simply lack the capital or access to capital markets to fund them. This constrains growth and economic advancement across various sectors of the economy.

Add in factors that many countries deal with such as corruption of state revenues, project management issues, political rivalry and inefficient government spending, and you get a compounded effect.

In the past Iran expressed the desire to license produce Russian and Ukrainian planes.

In 2008 Iran wanted to license produce Russian Tu-204 and Tu-334 planes and KA-32 helicopters, but these plans were abandoned due to Russian fear of Western sanctions.

Russia also cooperated with Iran in license production of tanks (T-72) and APCs (BMP2) back in 1990s and participated in the project of light subsonic trainer Shafagh, but this cooperation was abandoned due to US pressure on Russia.

Iran also wanted to license produce Ukrainian An-148 in 2009 but these plans never materialized due to Western pressure.

There were articles about German intelligence service BND participating in the US program aimed to disrupt emerging aviation industry in Iran. Germany intentionally supplied defective parts for Iranian built An-140 and the plane crashed shortly after taking off.

But times have changed....Russia is now an enemy of the West and is more internationally isolated than Iran.

Now for the first time Iran can have full cooperation with Russia in all spheres.

So I think now there is no need to reinvent the bicycle trying to build own plane and it will be better if Iran license produce planes in cooperation with Russia.

Since Russia is under Western sanctions and is a new pariah state, Russia can't sell its technology to anyone except Iran, Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea.

In current circumstances Russia can't sell its weapons to anyone because of sanctions but its military industry needs economies of scale and Iran can be the only partner that can buy Russian technology.

While over the last 20 years Iran have made great progress in military technology developing everything by itself and in isolation, in current circumstances it makes sense for Iran to license produce Russian Sukhoi Superjet 100, MC-21 and Su-75 5th generation fighter.....

Russia can also share its expertise and help Iran in other spheres of military technology like Space technology for example.

Unlike the last 30 years, there is no longer fears of Western sanctions or pressure in Russia regarding its cooperation with Iran in military sphere.

The last 40 years were especially difficult time for Iran:
1980s was a catastrophic decade when all financial assets of Iran were frozen, Iran was isolated from the world and fought a devastating and costly war with Iraq (which was supported by USA, USSR, Europe and the Arab World) with 1mln casualties
1990s was a decade when Iran was alone and isolated in the Unipolar world that was dominated by USA
2000s was a dangerous decade when global hegemon USA, ruled by Neoconservative Jews, invaded Iran's neigbors: Iraq and Afghanistan and threatened to bomb and invade Iran while trying to isolate it even further.
2010s was a difficult decade when Obama and Trump imposed crippling sanctions that seriously weakened Iran's economy....

But now we are in 2020s and 2030s are ahead....

There is no longer a Unipolar World and USA is no longer a global hegemon....

Russia- a huge country with 140mln people and 5000 nuclear warheads is now on Iran's side against the West

China- is becoming a global superpower and needs Iran as an ally against the West and for energy security.....

With the collapse of the Unipolar World and with the rise of China the future will be bright for Iran and Iran will no longer be a pariah state like it was in the last 40 years and Russia and China will be on Iran's side against USA.

So it now makes sense to think about license production of Russian and Chinese technology instead of trying to reinvent the bicycle in isolation.

 

[drmeson]

Pool daran bedehand be arabha ..Amma pool nadarn barayeh sakhteh havapayma...

When you give power to stupid people they will do stupid things.

 

[mohsen]

Pool daran bedehand be arabha ..Amma pool nadarn barayeh sakhteh havapayma...

It's people, not government, try to understand the difference!

 

[TheImmortal]

Russia and China will be on Iran's side against USA.

China’s “support” of Russia during this war has been quite underwhelming. Very pragmatic and at times a bit distant.

So until China locks horns with the West, I wouldn’t expect much of the way of major game changing help from them.

Xi like Putin from 2000-2015, thinks he can still have a peaceful and cooperative relationship with the West. Both men were so naive. The western colonials refuse to share the stage with “brown” people, commies, or asians.

This is how they think. They rather shoot themselves in the foot than ever acknowledge that a non-western white man nation could be superior to them in economic or military might.

This is ingrained in 2000+ years of them thinking they are truly the beacon of civilization. To them prior to Alexander the Great and the unification of nation states of Greece there was just barbarians and lawlessness. It is ingrained into their DNA to think they are superior race and the main character of the story. Now you want them to accept playing second fiddle to China on the world stage and giving the Middle East to Iranians? Not a chance.

Sooner or later China will learn this, just like Russia learned this. The [western] white man is a conqueror and his blood thirst for more power means his ego prevents peaceful cooperation with “inferior” races. Remember I told you this.

You and everyone else here will see where the world is headed in next 25 years.

So it now makes sense to think about license production of Russian and Chinese technology instead of trying to reinvent the bicycle in isolation.

China does not simply hand over license production tech. The only major receiver of Chinese tech has been Pakistan and most of that license production is devoid of any meaningful tech transfer. This keeps Pakistan heavily reliant on China.

Chinese investments in Iran (wether natural gas/oil/military) have been riddled with problems and inaction. China has been useful for Iran in securing components and raw materials needed to advance its military tech. But outright transfer of complex tech hasn’t materialized yet.

 

[glablo]

Just as Putin cannot abandon his dream of cooperation with the U.S., China continues to take the U.S. into consideration.
China will never fight back against the U.S., even under unreasonable embargoes.
The brainwashing of the U.S.-controlled media is intense.
I know Chinese people living in Japan,
They love the US, blame Putin, and are angry as to why the China does not impose economic sanctions on Russia.
And unfortunately, there are many people in Iran who still support the US.
My own country, Japan, has been crushed by unreasonable pressure from the U.S., but everyone loves the U.S. and is calling for war with China.
I sincerely hope that everyone will wake up soon.

 

[Muhammed45]

Pool daran bedehand be arabha ..Amma pool nadarn barayeh sakhteh havapayma...

Soviets forgot about civilian sector, they didn't care about expanding their ideological bases into friendly and even enemy states. They spent every single penny on military projects and evetually collapsed.

The ones you call Arabs are our brothers in arms. They became our base without spending a penny on them. All we have to do is helping them to stand on their own feet. This negligible spending is nothing when you bring it into our national security equations. For example, Hashd of Iraq will fight for Iran till the last drop of blood without expecting us to pay them back anything. How can we forget about people like that and leave them unarmed? They are closer than the concept of genetic brothers.

I always complain about the fact that we haven't paid them the attention that they deserved. We didn't arm them well. And they know that is because we have to take care of our people's pockets under most severe sanctions of west.

So don't complain about something that brings me more shame.

 

[mohsen]

Soviets forgot about civilian sector, they didn't care about expanding their ideological bases into friendly and even enemy states. They spent every single penny on military projects and evetually collapsed.

The ones you call Arabs are our brothers in arms. They became our base without spending a penny on them. All we have to do is helping them to stand on their own feet. This negligible spending is nothing when you bring it into our national security equations. For example, Hashd of Iraq will fight for Iran till the last drop of blood without expecting us to pay them back anything. How can we forget about people like that and leave them unarmed? They are closer than the concept of genetic brothers.

I always complain about the fact that we haven't paid them the attention that they deserved. We didn't arm them well. And they know that is because we have to take care of our people's pockets under most severe sanctions of west.

So don't complain about something that brings me more shame.

He meant Hajj pilgrims.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

@drmeson
@Thelmmortal

SU-30 did nothing

Indo Pak air theatre has always depended upon quality of Air to air missiles
In 1999, India had upper hand (and a very significant one) in A2A missile especially in range
So never let PAF fighter jets to get close to IAF.
While in 2019 conflict,PAF had upper hand in A2A missile domain so simply outranged IAF.
Now Indians have meteor and we have PL 15E (export version with 145km range)
Range is very important and China has not given us actual PL15 so we are developing our own BVR with 180km range
Its quality may not be top notch but range will give us first shot capability


Fighter jet is just a weapons platform not a weapon itself.The weapons it houses are the actual things to look at.

 

[drmeson]

BT is seldom wrong about the technical details of IRIAF. We have to give him that. But his F-14A/AM retirement prediction in 2024 and replacement with SU-35S makes little sense. He is saying that the last overhaul of F-14A/AM has been done already by IACI and IRIAF's Isfahan depot maintenance center and there will be no more cats next year. Why would IRIAF be investing in simulators + Fakour LR-BVR if the fleet is to be gone within a year?

Previously published reports said that 100 x Fakour-90 have been delivered around 2020-21 to IRIAF by Babaei Missile Industries and a ~200 KM ranging (same ECM + ARH different motor) Maghsood is to be delivered soon. Considering that F-14A/AM fleet is ~40 airframes strong, the sudden retirement plan seems a bit odd. These are flying AWACS with Long range BVR attack capabilities that form an outer IADS layer guarded by F-14AM (Fakour-90 armed), Bavar-373, S-300PMU, and 3rd Khordad. SU-35S with ~100 KM R-77AE can not do this job and even if it does, the plane costs 85 Million USD. Would IRIAF risk such an asset?

If this is true, how many SU-35S are being procured? they will do the following:

- Replace F-14A/AM fleet periphery TABs for QRA duties
- Deployed in underground bases like Oghab-44 (poster presented)