IRIAF | News and Discussions

[Piet]

Phantom is a flying brick and a bomb truck at best. Even if the plane would have been pulling 5+ G's with Fakour-90 it will still be in jeopardy with its massive RCS and inherent low maneuverability.



Yes knowing the classical work done on Fakour-90 with local modern SARH/ARH seeker, ECM, local motor and its extended range, I would have no doubt that Iranian AIM-7E2 will be something in class of R-77AE.

There are two routes to this, wait for SU-35S arrival and rumored MIG-29SMT upgrade so that with them come a bunch of R-77AE (may be upto 600-700) so Kowsar-I/II can share it the arsenal or go for local LR-BVR other than Fakour-90 which is too heavy for anything other than F-14AM.



Turkey will sit in the American lap very fast if Serbia-Kosovo front opens up. They have huge debt and inflation, this will be an opportunity for Erdogan to re-enter the west.



Kowsar-II needs a strong Turbofan like AL-31F, AESA in a class of Grifo-E, R-77AE/local AIM-7E2 integration with much talked about HMD by SIARAN. Kowsar-I already has ECM+Jammer, SAR, Double Duplex Datalink, modern nav-comm, FBW. All it needs is more power and AESA.



They get their AESA on FC-1 Block-3 from NRIET China.

Phantom is a flying brick and a bomb truck at best. Even if the plane would have been pulling 5+ G's with Fakour-90 it will still be in jeopardy with its massive RCS and inherent low maneuverability.



Yes knowing the classical work done on Fakour-90 with local modern SARH/ARH seeker, ECM, local motor and its extended range, I would have no doubt that Iranian AIM-7E2 will be something in class of R-77AE.

There are two routes to this, wait for SU-35S arrival and rumored MIG-29SMT upgrade so that with them come a bunch of R-77AE (may be upto 600-700) so Kowsar-I/II can share it the arsenal or go for local LR-BVR other than Fakour-90 which is too heavy for anything other than F-14AM.



Turkey will sit in the American lap very fast if Serbia-Kosovo front opens up. They have huge debt and inflation, this will be an opportunity for Erdogan to re-enter the west.



Kowsar-II needs a strong Turbofan like AL-31F, AESA in a class of Grifo-E, R-77AE/local AIM-7E2 integration with much talked about HMD by SIARAN. Kowsar-I already has ECM+Jammer, SAR, Double Duplex Datalink, modern nav-comm, FBW. All it needs is more power and AESA.



They get their AESA on FC-1 Block-3 from NRIET China.

Sorry about the double original message.

Yes knowing the classical work done on Fakour-90... The Iranians have endured through arms embargo's but still managed to contribute to the VLR AAM knowledge pool by upgrading the original AIM-54's, producing Fakour 90's and ultimately the 90B.

There are two routes to this... One indeed is stockpiling a large number of R-77AE, as the current Russia-Ukraine conflict has shown how quickly arms stocks (admittedly in general) can be drawn down. However, living in a country that was subjected to a UNSC arms-embargo for decades, has always left me with a sense of (local is 'lekker'). Lekker is Afrikaans for 'nice'. In other words, Iran makes it Iran owns it.

Kowsar-II needs a strong... Kowsar-1 has in many ways not only set the bar for others to follow, but has also given these a leg-up.

In your post to Muhammed45:-

... SAIRAN's TOT of Grifo-E's/NRIET KLJ-7A AESA. If China was willing to pass Grifo-346 TOT to Iran (unlikely sanctioned by Italy), then why not the two aforementioned radar?

P

 

[Hack-Hook]

Right now AESA is not that common in Iranian neighborhoods on low RCS aircraft. Among nations bordering Iran, only few Qatari Rafale has AESA radars. But with time, UAE will have their own fleet of Rafale T4 with AESA, and Saudis might upgrade their EF-2000 with the Captor-E AESA system. Turkey may eventually receive the F-35 etc so these Iranian Bayyenat-I/II systems will become obsolete very quickly. For now, Kowsar-I is the most advanced thing IRIAF has electronically but even a fully armed one with BVR its just a stop gap for 5 years at max. IRIAF will need Kowsar-II with a turbofan and AESA radar in post-2025 world of aviation.

KSA F-15SA
Kuwait eurofighter are trenche-3 so they are aesa
Pakistan J-10c , JF-17 block III
Qatar F-15QA

 

[TheImmortal]

KSA F-15SA
Kuwait eurofighter are trenche-3 so they are aesa
Pakistan J-10c , JF-17 block III
Qatar F-15QA

F-15 has RCS of 20+ so it really doesn’t matter what it’s radar is, its dead in any modern airspace. Even US pilots are saying F-16 would be toast in Ukraine and that has RCS 1-2 (latest block).

 

[yugocrosrb95]

F-15 has RCS of 20+ so it really doesn’t matter what it’s radar is, its dead in any modern airspace. Even US pilots are saying F-16 would be toast in Ukraine and that has RCS 1-2 (latest block).

That is in clean configuration.
Without pylons and ordnance.

 

[drmeson]

KSA F-15SA
Kuwait eurofighter are trenche-3 so they are aesa
Pakistan J-10c , JF-17 block III
Qatar F-15QA

I said AESA on low RCS aircraft. F-15 airframe be it any version is a 4.0 Generation Truck built in the 1970s for speed, climb, dash, range, and high number of hard points like F-14. It has a HUGE RCS. It will be tracked by RBE2AA (Rafale) and Captor E (EF2000T4) at some 150 KM and fired upon by Meteor LR-BVRAAM. So it does not count much in modern combat. Same story goes for entire plethora of Flankers. IRIAF needs SU-35S in masses but it is also an airframe designed in 1970s for maneuverability and physical performance.

J-10C and FC-1 Block-III both have the same Chinese NRIET KLJ-7A? That is strange. Why would someone have two aircrafts with same radars and combat package.

KLJ-7A is something I think SAIRAN may field out as Vahedi said there are local modern radars being tested. KLJ-7A AESA is Chinese CATIC's version of Grifo-E AESA. Kowsar-I has TOT'ed Grifo-346, there is a SLIM chance SAIRAN may have maintained connections with CATIC. Tom Cooper just a year or two ago said that SAIRAN and CATIC are in bed. He accused rapid progress in Iranian air defence (BAVAR 373 = S400) is because of CATIC, he even posted interviews of SAIRAN engineers telling how much they go to China etc. So there is a chance if IRIAF clowns play their cards right, but these are the same people who fly MF-1 and F-7N "Fighter-Bombers" so I am not sure.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

J-10C and FC-1 Block-III both have the same Chinese NRIET KLJ-7A? That is strange. Why would someone have two aircrafts with same radars and combat package.

J10C radar _ KLJ 10A with 1200T/R modules
JF 17 B3 radar _ KLJ 7A with 900T/R modules
F16 B52 radar _ AN/APG-68 Pulse Doppler radar

 

[yugocrosrb95]

How many T/R modules could fit inside nose of MiG-29 compared to JF-17 and J-10?

 

[drmeson]

How many T/R modules could fit inside nose of MiG-29 compared to JF-17 and J-10?

A lot of them but mind you counting T/R modules to consider the performance of radar is rather stupid otherwise aircraft designers will be making aircraft with F-4E like huge noses to house the largest possible antenna to this day.

This is Zhuk-ME of MIG-35 with 652 T/R I think can detect 3-5 m2 RCS at around 160 KM and may track it at 130 KM roughly since the Track range is 0.85 times the detection. The system is heavy at 275 Kg and has SAR resolution of 3m^2. It is an OK system, much below western equivalents like RBE2 or Captor. For whatever reason, Russians and Chinese lagged behind western counterparts in avionics by a margin. I hope whatever IEI shows has a western origin like Grifo-346.

..................................................

Btw considering BAVAR-373 package including MERAJ-4 (3D AESA) + X band AESA Track radar (10000 GN T/R) + S band AESA tracker, all came from SAIRAN, what can stop them from producing an AWG-9 AESA variant with some 1200 TR modules if they are given the contract? IRIAF is just badly managed that them wasting the budget on keeping 3.5 generation legacies is more important then allocating money to award contracts to HESA and SAIRAN for local combat suites for a single low RCS airframe. Kowsar-I's suite is 4.0 Gen but 4.0 Gen itself is obsolete now.

Not IRIAF related but since its part of IADS ... Bavar-373 is such a S-400 equivalent monster that many do not realize it demonstrated what kind of local capability. It can technically track/acquire 60 x 5 m2 RCS (all aspect) targets at ~260-300 KM. That means aerial butchery for any 4, 4+, 4.5 Generation invading party. Their only option would be to stay out of the zone and fire SOWs which IRGC will convert their Airbases at home into pulverized rubble by the time they go back to land.

 

[yugocrosrb95]

In my opinion Russia and China only "lag" behind because they favor what is cost effective and reliable with China in recent times going for AESA.
Seeing how conflict between them and America could turn active in next decade or so at this point, Russia has focus on everywhere but aviation.

 

[drmeson]

In my opinion Russia and China only "lag" behind because they favor what is cost effective and reliable with China in recent times going for AESA.

Or the general backwardness in authoritarian societies where logic is considered less important than obeying illogical demands of higher authorities.

Example: Russian WWII like convoys entering Ukraine getting destroyed.

Seeing how conflict between them and America could turn active in next decade or so at this point, Russia has focus on everywhere but aviation.

Rate of R&D in Unmanned Aviation, Missiles and IADS >>>> Rate of R&D in manned aviation

No sane nation is investing heavily in manned combat aviation anymore. Fleets are decreasing with time in terms of sizes.

 

[tsunset]

A lot of them but mind you counting T/R modules to consider the performance of radar is rather stupid otherwise aircraft designers will be making aircraft with F-4E like huge noses to house the largest possible antenna to this day.

This is Zhuk-ME of MIG-35 with 652 T/R I think can detect 3-5 m2 RCS at around 160 KM and may track it at 130 KM roughly since the Track range is 0.85 times the detection. The system is heavy at 275 Kg and has SAR resolution of 3m^2. It is an OK system, much below western equivalents like RBE2 or Captor. For whatever reason, Russians and Chinese lagged behind western counterparts in avionics by a margin. I hope whatever IEI shows has a western origin like Grifo-346.

..................................................

Btw considering BAVAR-373 package including MERAJ-4 (3D AESA) + X band AESA Track radar (10000 GN T/R) + S band AESA tracker, all came from SAIRAN, what can stop them from producing an AWG-9 AESA variant with some 1200 TR modules if they are given the contract? IRIAF is just badly managed that them wasting the budget on keeping 3.5 generation legacies is more important then allocating money to award contracts to HESA and SAIRAN for local combat suites for a single low RCS airframe. Kowsar-I's suite is 4.0 Gen but 4.0 Gen itself is obsolete now.

Not IRIAF related but since its part of IADS ... Bavar-373 is such a S-400 equivalent monster that many do not realize it demonstrated what kind of local capability. It can technically track/acquire 60 x 5 m2 RCS (all aspect) targets at ~260-300 KM. That means aerial butchery for any 4, 4+, 4.5 Generation invading party. Their only option would be to stay out of the zone and fire SOWs which IRGC will convert their Airbases at home into pulverized rubble by the time they go back to land.

What is your website?

 

[TheImmortal]

Not IRIAF related but since its part of IADS ... Bavar-373 is such a S-400 equivalent monster that many do not realize it demonstrated what kind of local capability. It can technically track/acquire 60 x 5 m2 RCS (all aspect) targets at ~260-300 KM. That means aerial butchery for any 4, 4+, 4.5 Generation invading party. Their only option would be to stay out of the zone and fire SOWs which IRGC will convert their Airbases at home into pulverized rubble by the time they go back to land.

Issue with Bavar is not its capability, on paper it’s quite capable lethal system. But its production rate; which is quite unknown at this point is the problem.

That is in clean configuration.
Without pylons and ordnance.

Exactly which is why it’s stupid to build a 4th Gen fighter with a large RCS even if it’s got powerful radar, it lights up on any modern radar like a Christmas tree and will not survive long.

Now you can get away with that type fighter with an air superiority fighter that primarily stays inside its own airspace and gets defended by its air defense systems and radar network. It will be able to survive.

Reality is a .1m2 or less fighter with an internal bay and a modern BVR can do wonders for Iran’s defense systems and airspace. It’s a shame leadership does not see the value in a 5th Gen air space defender jet.

F-14 literally saved Iranian airspace in the Iran-Iraq war and these dinosaurs have already forgotten that.

 

[drmeson]

What is your website?

My Website? You mean my LinkedIn, ResearchG ?

 

[Hack-Hook]

Btw considering BAVAR-373 package including MERAJ-4 (3D AESA) + X band AESA Track radar (10000 GN T/R) + S band AESA tracker, all came from SAIRAN, what can stop them from producing an AWG-9 AESA variant with some 1200 TR modules if they are given the contract?

my guess is miniaturization , is the problem here and the fact we are behind many other countries in lithography to produce the modules needed for it

Exactly which is why it’s stupid to build a 4th Gen fighter with a large RCS even if it’s got powerful radar, it lights up on any modern radar like a Christmas tree and will not survive long.

Now you can get away with that type fighter with an air superiority fighter that primarily stays inside its own airspace and gets defended by its air defense systems and radar network. It will be able to survive.

Reality is a .1m2 or less fighter with an internal bay and a modern BVR can do wonders for Iran’s defense systems and airspace. It’s a shame leadership does not see the value in a 5th Gen air space defender jet.

F-14 literally saved Iranian airspace in the Iran-Iraq war and these dinosaurs have already forgotten that.

Well i wonder what is your idea to complement that christmass tree with air-crafts like EA-18G Growler or so0mething else that play the same role ?

 

[TheImmortal]

my guess is miniaturization , is the problem here and the fact we are behind many other countries in lithography to produce the modules needed for it

It’s $$$$

Building an APG-77 or 81 class AESA radar for fighter jets is not cheap, in fact it cost more than the entire Kowsar-I airplane.