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Gentlemen,
At the risk of, no doubt, sounding like a broken record player ... I would say, the idea of needing a STATE OF THE ART ENGINE is borderline insanity, for Iran. I can justify this.

In 1962 An engine was produced for a fast car, it was a 5.0L TI-VCT-V8, for one of my favorite cars, a Ford Mach 1. This engine still to this day, is an awe inspiring engine. Yes, it is not Eco-Engine, does not have KL-KN-teptronic engine control system, it is not integrated with a computer as is many of high stack engines for top of the line cars, however, still to this day, this twin independent camshaft timing engine without any computer or other fancy bells and whistles, is powerful and reliable and doesn't have some of the major issues (when break down) that other fancy engines have. Much more reliable, even more than the Jaguar supercharged AJ126 5.0L that has Adaptive Dynamic InControl Sequential Shaft made in (yes) Germany, although people are told that it is in Coventry, LOL.

I was in Coventry with the main project director who was a friend of mine at University and we drove to Warwick (right by the castle) and had a beer (a few actually) at the Warwick Mill pub that has the glass floor and you can see the river underneath. He said, and I quote, "I wished we just used the 5.0 Ti-VCT-V8 with a engine management control computer, instead of all this development for a crappy engine, that has been nothing but an expensive f**** nightmare of idiocy.

My point:

Having worked in the Aviation Engine industry for 3 decades, I would categorically say, IRAN DOES NOT NEED THE BEST TURBOFAN ENGINE in the world. Iran just doesn't need it. The myth of turbofan is what the Americans have used to sell expensive engines and (more important to them), get MAINTENANCE contracts from Arab countries (so CIA can go and reside there) that cannot think for themselves and ask themselves, why would they need a turbofan, if they have so much oil, and if they have aerial refueling, and such an expensive piece of equipment, that has (depends on engine of course) about 30% more parts that can go wrong?

Any of the engines mentioned by Ray_Atek would work fine - IF IRAN'S AIR COMBAT STRATEGY IS SOUND.

The West have fooled everyone about turbofan. Ask people that I have worked with over many years, who actually maintained engines, they spoke to me as the liaison for engine re-design and structural analysis, and manufacturing. They told me what they think.

Never seen so many maintenance crews (an pilots), proportionately, love an engine as much as P&W J52 turbojet, and never seen more people hate the engine TF-30 turbofans as much as the people I worked with or came across through contact at RR, or the American military base in U.K. that had FB-111.

Yes there are some good turbofan engines, .... yes, AL31 is good, etc. etc. but let's be real here.

Do not let American marketing fool you into thinking that IT HAS TO BE A TURBOFAN. Absolutely not.

I would prefer Iran spend money (instead of an engine, and hiring someone like me), to spend money to turn Fakour 90, into a R37 - more efficient missile engine, high grade composite fuel tec-sip high energy with light composite body, or AIM 120D and/or Meteor missiles.

Turbofan does not offer IRREPLACIBLE ADVANTAGE.

Once again, DOES NOT OFFER IRREPLACIBLE ADVANTAGE.

Multi-channel, multi-mode, multi-band AESA radar DOES. R37 with its incredible range and Meteor, DO.

Iran does not have enough money, nor time, to invest in turbofan of 30,000 lb class.

It cannot also buy from Russia, not in a sensible way either. Iran should, as I have bored all of you so many times, need to rely on its own and use one of the engines that Ray-Atek mentioned above. It is perfectly fine.

If IRIAF researcher are visiting this site, as I know they do, DO NOT FALL FOR THE TRAP OF AMERICANS. Take a look at the IRGC, they fight based on America's weaknesses, not strengths. U.S. would LOVE for Iran to get bugged down in engine development for the next 20 years. Don't do them a favor. Iran already spends 35% of its IRIAF budget on retirement funds, war wounded salaries and compensation, etc. Iran does not have the money to spend on such a huge mistake.

Simpler turbojet engines of late 1970s, are pretty good, for what Iran needs. Many known knowns, much quicker for Iran to develop, EVEN add todays technology to the old design (when it makes sense), e.g. blade coating, etc.

My humble opinion, of course.

Long live the wonderful, righteous nation of Iran and her brave people.


Engines manufacturing: Not just US, Russian, and China, let's not forget France, UK, and Germany. They can build good engines too, although have little incentive to do so.

Thank you for your mentioned project management factors.

Nowadays we see many technical changes in Air frame and Avionics,
And not on engines.

Waiting to complete each part of fighter jet, is a deep time wasting management.
 
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IRGC after 40 years: 300km aimless rockets are turned into 1000km snipers.

IRIAF after 40 years: AIM-9 is renamed (to various names)! MIM-23 Hawk missiles refurbished as Phoenix with lower range (and of course a new name)!

IRGC commanders could have used the same excuses as well: Producing missiles is the job of defense ministry, we are just the end user!
well , you must see fatter is compatible with which version of AIM-9 . if it turn out to be like AIM-9x then its not that bad.
 
Well Iran has tried to build jets. They have come a long way but still have a long way to go. It's not easy to build a fighter jet that lives up to world standards. Only a few countries monopolize this industry.

Aside from the USA, Russia, China, the only other countries that have been able to do it have had to use their technology. Even the Chinese are still using Russian engines. It's not easy to accomplish.

Iran can get there but needs to cooperate with Russia / China to be able to actually build jets that are world class. Right now Iran's airforce needs fighter jets. Some jets are 50 years old. They won't last another 20 years.

Look I would love to see Iran build fighter jets, 4th gen and 5th gen that are world class, but without technology from outside it's not realistic. Look at Iran's drones. How did Iran go so far so quickly ? If Iran had not gotten its hands all those American drones, I can guarantee that Iran never would have been able to go so far. Look at Turkey, their drones 90% of vital parts are foreign.

It's not easy and takes time. First it begins by reverse engineering some parts, Then eventually building a copy with some domestic parts. Then building a copy with mostly domestic parts. Then eventually designing something indigenous and building the parts, assembly line, etc, that is the end goal.

That is how the Chinese have built anything, including tanks, jets and everything else. In many cases, after 50 years the Chinese are still copying in mass. Again it's not easy and takes time.
Buddy, I didn't ask for a world class fighter jet at this point, but at least they should have built some good missiles by now, I specifically compared the missile advancements in two forces to show the huge gap, constant advancement in one side; and close to standstill in another! they didn't even bother to barrow some missile tech from IRGC!

Qaher should have been built by air force, not defense ministry, even by using engines and radars from existing fleet, they could have saved one or two decades of R&D in aerodynamics before we reach a proper domestic engine. but no, they are like a spoiled child, not only didn't build it themselves, even refused it by saying it doesn't meet their expectations!!! well, they can stick their expectations in their lazy fat arses!

Also if we look at Bavar373, what was done in about 10 years, surpasses decades of Chinese copycat progress.
 
Gentlemen,
At the risk of, no doubt, sounding like a broken record player ... I would say, the idea of needing a STATE OF THE ART ENGINE is borderline insanity, for Iran. I can justify this.

In 1962 An engine was produced for a fast car, it was a 5.0L TI-VCT-V8, for one of my favorite cars, a Ford Mach 1. This engine still to this day, is an awe inspiring engine. Yes, it is not Eco-Engine, does not have KL-KN-teptronic engine control system, it is not integrated with a computer as is many of high stack engines for top of the line cars, however, still to this day, this twin independent camshaft timing engine without any computer or other fancy bells and whistles, is powerful and reliable and doesn't have some of the major issues (when break down) that other fancy engines have. Much more reliable, even more than the Jaguar supercharged AJ126 5.0L that has Adaptive Dynamic InControl Sequential Shaft made in (yes) Germany, although people are told that it is in Coventry, LOL.

I was in Coventry with the main project director who was a friend of mine at University and we drove to Warwick (right by the castle) and had a beer (a few actually) at the Warwick Mill pub that has the glass floor and you can see the river underneath. He said, and I quote, "I wished we just used the 5.0 Ti-VCT-V8 with a engine management control computer, instead of all this development for a crappy engine, that has been nothing but an expensive f**** nightmare of idiocy.

My point:

Having worked in the Aviation Engine industry for 3 decades, I would categorically say, IRAN DOES NOT NEED THE BEST TURBOFAN ENGINE in the world. Iran just doesn't need it. The myth of turbofan is what the Americans have used to sell expensive engines and (more important to them), get MAINTENANCE contracts from Arab countries (so CIA can go and reside there) that cannot think for themselves and ask themselves, why would they need a turbofan, if they have so much oil, and if they have aerial refueling, and such an expensive piece of equipment, that has (depends on engine of course) about 30% more parts that can go wrong?

Any of the engines mentioned by Ray_Atek would work fine - IF IRAN'S AIR COMBAT STRATEGY IS SOUND.

The West have fooled everyone about turbofan. Ask people that I have worked with over many years, who actually maintained engines, they spoke to me as the liaison for engine re-design and structural analysis, and manufacturing. They told me what they think.

Never seen so many maintenance crews (an pilots), proportionately, love an engine as much as P&W J52 turbojet, and never seen more people hate the engine TF-30 turbofans as much as the people I worked with or came across through contact at RR, or the American military base in U.K. that had FB-111.

Yes there are some good turbofan engines, .... yes, AL31 is good, etc. etc. but let's be real here.

Do not let American marketing fool you into thinking that IT HAS TO BE A TURBOFAN. Absolutely not.

I would prefer Iran spend money (instead of an engine, and hiring someone like me), to spend money to turn Fakour 90, into a R37 - more efficient missile engine, high grade composite fuel tec-sip high energy with light composite body, or AIM 120D and/or Meteor missiles.

Turbofan does not offer IRREPLACIBLE ADVANTAGE.

Once again, DOES NOT OFFER IRREPLACIBLE ADVANTAGE.

Multi-channel, multi-mode, multi-band AESA radar DOES. R37 with its incredible range and Meteor, DO.

Iran does not have enough money, nor time, to invest in turbofan of 30,000 lb class.

It cannot also buy from Russia, not in a sensible way either. Iran should, as I have bored all of you so many times, need to rely on its own and use one of the engines that Ray-Atek mentioned above. It is perfectly fine.

If IRIAF researcher are visiting this site, as I know they do, DO NOT FALL FOR THE TRAP OF AMERICANS. Take a look at the IRGC, they fight based on America's weaknesses, not strengths. U.S. would LOVE for Iran to get bugged down in engine development for the next 20 years. Don't do them a favor. Iran already spends 35% of its IRIAF budget on retirement funds, war wounded salaries and compensation, etc. Iran does not have the money to spend on such a huge mistake.

Simpler turbojet engines of late 1970s, are pretty good, for what Iran needs. Many known knowns, much quicker for Iran to develop, EVEN add todays technology to the old design (when it makes sense), e.g. blade coating, etc.

My humble opinion, of course.

Long live the wonderful, righteous nation of Iran and her brave people.


Engines manufacturing: Not just US, Russian, and China, let's not forget France, UK, and Germany. They can build good engines too, although have little incentive to do so.
france germany and uk cant even produce a single sock if they werent ordered to by globalists so no they are not useful for themselves even let alone for others
 

Interesting thread, considering the wide range of applications it is worth serial production. Whether it;d be transport, cargo transport, firefighting, or offensive flexibility perhaps even AWACS all of it very much needed, god knows we need something like this.
Well,I for one am very glad to see that the iran 140 program was not abandoned,as it seemed to be at the beginning of the 2010s,but had in fact continued behind the scenes with the apparent goal of redesigning it into a military transport,plus no doubt other uses as well.
 
Budget is a just an excuse
Stop acting as if IRGC magicked thousands of BMs into existence with 2 hezar toman and a couple of brilliant scientists/commanders. In 1399 IRGC alone (not counting Basij) had almost double the budget of the entire Artesh with less than half the active personnel. How do you expect any branch of Artesh to do spend on development programs in this situation?
 
Stop acting as if IRGC magicked thousands of BMs into existence with 2 hezar toman and a couple of brilliant scientists/commanders. In 1399 IRGC alone (not counting Basij) had almost double the budget of the entire Artesh with less than half the active personnel. How do you expect any branch of Artesh to do spend on development programs in this situation?
If i'm not wrong, IRGC budget was around 18 hezar miliard toman and artesh received 11 hezar miliard toman.

You forget that IRGC is responsible for missions abroad, Safety of our borders and fighting against insurgency. Artesh has no role in these sectors and they don't have to pay for Safety of bordering areas such as baluchestan and kordestan. IRGC is giving tens of martyrs every year to protect the country from terrorism and border skirmishes. Add that to their Quds forces which needs a seperate budget to carry out its missions in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan etc etc.
I am not trying to undermine artesh and their role in the security of country but they have their budget untouched and preserved. They don't have to find a way to transfer military equipment to Hezbollah and others. It is fully upto IRGC.
And we, after 40 years, expect IRIAF to develop a capable fighter jet along with useful missiles and also up to date. That's their only job. They could do it, budget is not something that has stopped them. They mostly keep their equipment in reserve and they don't have to upgrade F14s every year. A small fraction of Artesh budget is specified to upgrading fighter jets. One cannot blame it all on fighter jets.
 
Stop acting as if IRGC magicked thousands of BMs into existence with 2 hezar toman and a couple of brilliant scientists/commanders. In 1399 IRGC alone (not counting Basij) had almost double the budget of the entire Artesh with less than half the active personnel. How do you expect any branch of Artesh to do spend on development programs in this situation?
you speaking like child and irgc cant compared to artesh artesh activity compare to sepah like filo fenjon
 

حداکثر سرعت جنگنده کوثر، هزار و ۷۰۰ کیلومتر در ساعت معادل ۱۰ هزار و ۶۰ مایل بر ساعت (۱.۶ ماخ) و برد آن حدود هزار و ۱۰۰ کیلومتر است، این محصول به دو قبضه موشک فاطر مسلح بوده است.
به گزارش مشرق، نیروی هوایی ارتش جمهور اسلامی ایران با حرکت در مسیر راهبرد «ما می‌توانیم»، انواع جنگنده مجهز به فناوری‌های روز دنیا تولید کرده است.
ساخت جنگنده‌های مُدرن، دست بالای صنعت دفاعی ایران برای ایجاد بازدارندگی و تقویت امنیت پایدار کشور است.
جنگنده «کوثر»، یکی از این دستاوردهای مهم نیروی هوایی در ساخت جنگنده کاملاً ایرانی است، از اویونیک(تجهیزات الکترونیکی هواپیما)، رادار، جهت یابی تا موتور ملی این محصول، ساخت متخصصان جوان کشورمان است.
سیستم مانیتورینگ این جنگنده ایرانی کاملاً بومی بوده و یک دستاورد مهم است.

جنگنده کوثر، آشیانه موشک‌های فاطر و بمب خوشه‌ای سیمرغ

سامانه کنترل آتش، تجهیزات اویونیکی، رایانه مرکزی، نمایشگرها، رادار چند منظوره بروی جنگنده کوثر نصب شده است، یکی از افتخارات صنعت دفاعی کشور دست یابی به ساخت انواع موتور جنگنده بوده و موتور توربوجت ایران اوج یکی از ویژگی‌های مهم ساختاری جنگنده کوثر است که با نصب بروی این محصول بومی، اوج رسیدن متخصصین ایرانی را به فناوری‌های روز دنیا نشان می‌دهد.
جنگنده کوثر دو کابینه است، طول این محصول به ۱۴.۴۵ متر می‌رسد، ارتفای آن ۴.۸ متر است، وزن این جنگنده ایرانی در مراحل خالی، بارگیری و پروازی متغیر است، وزن خالی آن ۴.۳۴۹ کیلوگرم، وزن بارگیری ۷.۱۵۷ کیلوگرم و بیشینه وزن برخاست این جنگنده ایرانی ۹.۳۱۲ کیلوگرم تخمین زده شده است.

جنگنده کوثر، آشیانه موشک‌های فاطر و بمب خوشه‌ای سیمرغ


حداکثر سرعت جنگنده کوثر، هزار و ۷۰۰ کیلومتر در ساعت معادل ۱۰ هزار و ۶۰ مایل بر ساعت (۱.۶ ماخ) و برد آن حدود هزار و ۱۰۰ کیلومتر است، این محصول به دو قبضه موشک فاطر مسلح بوده و سقف پروازی آن ۵ هزار و ۸۰۰ متر تخمین زده شده است.

جنگنده کوثر، آشیانه موشک‌های فاطر و بمب خوشه‌ای سیمرغ


As per the article, They have armed Kowsar with Fater air to air missile. It was developed from Aim-9. Great achievement
Your interpretation of this article made it look like IRIAF has only recently armed Kowsar with fatter missiles,,...It just randome article like milions other out there,nothing like news they armed kowsar with fatter missile...For god sake,even google translate do decent job...Article(editor) provide general information about kowsar,and than in array of other information like Speed 1700km/h ,flight celling,range 1100km,empty weight,full load weight...latest technology avionics,owj engines..and bunch of more..it also say it can be armed with different kind of amunition,including Iranian made Simorgh cluster bombs,Fatter missiles..atc
 
Stop acting as if IRGC magicked thousands of BMs into existence with 2 hezar toman and a couple of brilliant scientists/commanders. In 1399 IRGC alone (not counting Basij) had almost double the budget of the entire Artesh with less than half the active personnel. How do you expect any branch of Artesh to do spend on development programs in this situation?
IRGC and its unregistered foreign forces are running the entire middle east. who do you think is paying for all the missiles and drones plus all other logistics in resistance axis?

Yet, I'm more than sure both forces waste enough money that R&D budget wouldn't make a difference in it!
 
If i'm not wrong, IRGC budget was around 18 hezar miliard toman and artesh received 11 hezar miliard toman.

You forget that IRGC is responsible for missions abroad, Safety of our borders and fighting against insurgency. Artesh has no role in these sectors and they don't have to pay for Safety of bordering areas such as baluchestan and kordestan. IRGC is giving tens of martyrs every year to protect the country from terrorism and border skirmishes. Add that to their Quds forces which needs a seperate budget to carry out its missions in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan etc etc.
I am not trying to undermine artesh and their role in the security of country but they have their budget untouched and preserved. They don't have to find a way to transfer military equipment to Hezbollah and others. It is fully upto IRGC.
And we, after 40 years, expect IRIAF to develop a capable fighter jet along with useful missiles and also up to date. That's their only job. They could do it, budget is not something that has stopped them. They mostly keep their equipment in reserve and they don't have to upgrade F14s every year. A small fraction of Artesh budget is specified to upgrading fighter jets. One cannot blame it all on fighter jets.
Does Sepah control all borders or just the hot spot areas?
If Sepah does secure the borders too, then what does the Artesh army do these days?
 
Does Sepah control all borders or just the hot spot areas?
If Sepah does secure the borders too, then what does the Artesh army do these days?
I have spent my military service in Artesh sir. They have no role in protecting the borders. It is mostly upto police force (نیروی انتظامی( and IRGC. IRGC is most active in those hot spots as you mentioned above. When we were in Baluchestan, an IRGC military bus was attacked right in front of our military base in Khash. I was serving as an artillery specialist. After massacring our brothers in IRGC, they announced high alert in our base, I can still Remember those sleepless nights.

IRGC is protecting the country with her sweat and blood. Without them we had to fight against JuA inside Baluchestan. Its true that i was an Artesh soldier and i am loyal to my Unit but where is my Honor? IRGC is the only reason that Iran is the same Iran with same borders of pre Revolution times.
 
I have spent my military service in Artesh sir. They have no role in protecting the borders. It is mostly upto police force (نیروی انتظامی( and IRGC. IRGC is most active in those hot spots as you mentioned above. When we were in Baluchestan, an IRGC military bus was attacked right in front of our military base in Khash. I was serving as an artillery specialist. After massacring our brothers in IRGC, they announced high alert in our base, I can still Remember those sleepless nights.

IRGC is protecting the country with her sweat and blood. Without them we had to fight against JuA inside Baluchestan. Its true that i was an Artesh soldier and i am loyal to my Unit but where is my Honor? IRGC is the only reason that Iran is the same Iran with same borders of pre Revolution times.
So what are the day to day activities of the army? In what situations would army be deployed and is it ready for any hot and heavy fighting these days?
 
what are the day to day activities of the army?
The routine Education, training and maintenance.


In what situations would army be deployed and is it ready for any hot and heavy fighting these days?
When the country is invaded, attacked or is prepared for an offensive.

Artesh is always ready for heavy fighting. They have tens of non reported exercises all over the country. They receive orders from Supreme leader and he orders them based on their readiness.

At the moment they have nothing to do with the bordering areas unless the leader defines new missions for Artesh.
 

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