IRIAF | News and Discussions

[Amin Bactria]

What great achievment!? Basically it's saying Kowthar has no BVR capability and is just the same F5 with new display monitors, it's like changing a Paykan's dashboard and then renaming it to something else!

Current Kowthar is just an unfinished project which was unveiled early for domestic consumption, that's why airforce decided to appoint the first batch to air display team, these aircrafts wont add no fighting capability to their fleet.

what a nonsense
any production of planes inside iran is a good step taken

 

[PeeD]

The progress in IRIAF and the homemade stuff of this military branch is good but its being done annoyingly slowly.

I know that missile force is on top priority but after 40 years, i expect them arm Kowsar with longer range air to air missiles.

The missile force of IRGC started from below zero capabilities, their airforce started from an even worse Spot but at the moment they are testing their achievements on the old platforms such as J-7s. Army shouldve done the same without expecting something on par with F22s. IRIAF has every platform to develop and test new missiles. They need to Gear up and increase their Speed of developing new missiles, from air2air to Air2ground etc.
@PeeD is it a wrong expectation dear sir?

They upgrade older platforms because there is no suitable Iranian engine for a serious fighter jet.
They are bound by the large amount of old gear they have and the maintenance and need for upgrades.

But some good work is done.

IRGC-ASK builds missile, store them and thats it for some decades. No heavy additional costs like in IRIAF.

 

[WudangMaster]

What great achievment!? Basically it's saying Kowthar has no BVR capability and is just the same F5 with new display monitors, it's like changing a Paykan's dashboard and then renaming it to something else!

Current Kowthar is just an unfinished project which was unveiled early for domestic consumption, that's why airforce decided to appoint the first batch to air display team, these aircrafts wont add no fighting capability to their fleet.

It was really meant to be an advanced trainer for any future heavy fighter the IRIAF might acquire or develop. It should have a better radar and capabilities than F5, but at least the low flight hours make them very suitable for aerobatics and trainers.

 

[mohsen]

It was really meant to be an advanced trainer for any future heavy fighter the IRIAF might acquire or develop. It should have a better radar and capabilities than F5, but at least the low flight hours make them very suitable for aerobatics and trainers.

Few months back, they just talked about the start of armament tests for kowthar! or fly by wire system for Owj engine and subsequently Kowthar, it's just an unfinished project.

Labeling a "Trainer" is their solution for unveiling unfinished aircrafts which can't do nothing else!

 

[mohsen]

They upgrade older platforms because there is no suitable Iranian engine for a serious fighter jet.
They are bound by the large amount of old gear they have and the maintenance and need for upgrades.

But some good work is done.

IRGC-ASK builds missile, store them and thats it for some decades. No heavy additional costs like in IRIAF.

IRGC after 40 years: 300km aimless rockets are turned into 1000km snipers.

IRIAF after 40 years: AIM-9 is renamed (to various names)! MIM-23 Hawk missiles refurbished as Phoenix with lower range (and of course a new name)!

IRGC commanders could have used the same excuses as well: Producing missiles is the job of defense ministry, we are just the end user!

 

[Mr Iran Eye]

it's normal that the Kowsar is unfinished as they are constantly improving on him. You speculate a lot but in fact you don't know a lot. You don't know much about the competence of the new missile.

Iran is also working on constant improvements on their F-4 SM (Super improved) New airframe, camera and cockpit with digital element, new radar 2 to 3 times bigger than that of the Kowsar and other new component. I suspect a new engine.

Iran keeps its surprises for their fighter jets and through these upgrades they are building their new heavy fighter jets. It is a logical choice, at a lower cost, to make constant improvements in their new technologies.

Unlike the majority on this forum, I do not underestimate the genius and resourcefulness of Iranian scientists. I am convinced that the USA, Israel and other countries do not underestimate the Iranian fighter planes like you do

 

[AmirPatriot]

IRGC after 40 years: 300km aimless rockets are turned into 1000km snipers.

IRIAF after 40 years: AIM-9 is renamed (to various names)! MIM-23 Hawk missiles refurbished as Phoenix with lower range (and of course a new name)!

IRGC commanders could have used the same excuses as well: Producing missiles is the job of defense ministry, we are just the end user!

IRIAF doesn't even have enough budget to keep all their F-14s active, let alone develop state of the art weapons for them in a reasonable time frame. They put F-14s in storage for years before they bring them out and try to make them operational again.

 

[Ray_Atek]

Russia made many twin engine fighter jet before Single engine Su75.

Why we do not learn from Russians and not thinking to single engine F14 or
Single engine SofreMahi

Or cheaper one....

 

[TheImmortal]

Russia made many twin engine fighter jet before Single engine Su75.

Why we do not learn from Russians and not thinking to single engine F14 or
Single engine SofreMahi View attachment 770011
Or cheaper one....

You first need to develop an engine that can power such a fighter jet.

Tell me a non global power country that develops its own engine without any spare parts or technology from either from Russia, China, US.

Building 100% state of the art jet engine is more difficult than mastering the 1940’s nuclear cycle.

 

[Ray_Atek]

You first need to develop an engine that can power such a fighter jet.

Tell me a non global power country that develops its own engine without any spare parts or technology from either from Russia, China, US.

Building 100% state of the art jet engine is more difficult than mastering the 1940’s nuclear cycle.

No need to mass producing an engine,
Which take time and money.

Just using existing engines such Al21, j79, Rd33
And .... With or without there's air frame.

Engine and Air frame projects should start paralleling.

 

[Amin Bactria]

IRGC after 40 years: 300km aimless rockets are turned into 1000km snipers.

IRIAF after 40 years: AIM-9 is renamed (to various names)! MIM-23 Hawk missiles refurbished as Phoenix with lower range (and of course a new name)!

IRGC commanders could have used the same excuses as well: Producing missiles is the job of defense ministry, we are just the end user!

this is exactly the point i make about irans revolutionaries they are working hard and bring merit to the discussion and now that they are in power its time to change the entire behaviors of iran from being lazy to being efficient and up to groundbreakingly so
i believe sepah will produce this plane if the project is given to them with enough finance they will have the project with the first working plane done in 5 years max this is how they work meanwhile if its up to the current defense ministry its 10 years at best

 

[mohsen]

IRIAF doesn't even have enough budget to keep all their F-14s active, let alone develop state of the art weapons for them in a reasonable time frame. They put F-14s in storage for years before they bring them out and try to make them operational again.

Budget is a just an excuse, they just didn't have someone like tehrani moghaddam to define a world class goal for himself and then start his work in tent! or someone like Hajizadeh to put friends and foes in wonder!
that's why Isralies are mentioning his name so much these days.


IRIAF commanders still have the same shah era consumer mentality, their mental horizon is to buy something from outside (and yes, they do get the budget for that) and reverse engineer few parts. if it wasn't for IRGC and Hajizadeh, even army air defense still was playing with the HAWK system! though after their departure from air force, a young commander and critical help of IRGC and Hajizadeh they finally got in the line.

 

[sha ah]

Well Iran has tried to build jets. They have come a long way but still have a long way to go. It's not easy to build a fighter jet that lives up to world standards. Only a few countries monopolize this industry.

Aside from the USA, Russia, China, the only other countries that have been able to do it have had to use their technology. Even the Chinese are still using Russian engines. It's not easy to accomplish.

Iran can get there but needs to cooperate with Russia / China to be able to actually build jets that are world class. Right now Iran's airforce needs fighter jets. Some jets are 50 years old. They won't last another 20 years.

Look I would love to see Iran build fighter jets, 4th gen and 5th gen that are world class, but without technology from outside it's not realistic. Look at Iran's drones. How did Iran go so far so quickly ? If Iran had not gotten its hands all those American drones, I can guarantee that Iran never would have been able to go so far. Look at Turkey, their drones 90% of vital parts are foreign.

It's not easy and takes time. First it begins by reverse engineering some parts, Then eventually building a copy with some domestic parts. Then building a copy with mostly domestic parts. Then eventually designing something indigenous and building the parts, assembly line, etc, that is the end goal.

That is how the Chinese have built anything, including tanks, jets and everything else. In many cases, after 50 years the Chinese are still copying in mass. Again it's not easy and takes time.

Budget is a just an excuse, they just didn't have someone like tehrani moghaddam to define a world class goal for himself and then start his work in tent! or someone like Hajizadeh to put friends and foes in wonder!
that's why Isralies are mentioning his name so much these days.


IRIAF commanders still have the same shah era consumer mentality, their mental horizon is to buy something from outside (and yes, they do get the budget for that) and reverse engineer few parts. if it wasn't for IRGC and Hajizadeh, even army air defense still was playing with the HAWK system! though after their departure from air force, a young commander and critical help of IRGC and Hajizadeh they finally got in the line.

 

[EvilWesteners]

No need to mass producing an engine,
Which take time and money.

Just using existing engines such Al21, j79, Rd33
And .... With or without there's air frame.

Engine and Air frame projects should start paralleling.

Gentlemen,
At the risk of, no doubt, sounding like a broken record player ... I would say, the idea of needing a STATE OF THE ART ENGINE is borderline insanity, for Iran. I can justify this.

In 1962 An engine was produced for a fast car, it was a 5.0L TI-VCT-V8, for one of my favorite cars, a Ford Mach 1. This engine still to this day, is an awe inspiring engine. Yes, it is not Eco-Engine, does not have KL-KN-teptronic engine control system, it is not integrated with a computer as is many of high stack engines for top of the line cars, however, still to this day, this twin independent camshaft timing engine without any computer or other fancy bells and whistles, is powerful and reliable and doesn't have some of the major issues (when break down) that other fancy engines have. Much more reliable, even more than the Jaguar supercharged AJ126 5.0L that has Adaptive Dynamic InControl Sequential Shaft made in (yes) Germany, although people are told that it is in Coventry, LOL.

I was in Coventry with the main project director who was a friend of mine at University and we drove to Warwick (right by the castle) and had a beer (a few actually) at the Warwick Mill pub that has the glass floor and you can see the river underneath. He said, and I quote, "I wished we just used the 5.0 Ti-VCT-V8 with a engine management control computer, instead of all this development for a crappy engine, that has been nothing but an expensive f**** nightmare of idiocy.

My point:

Having worked in the Aviation Engine industry for 3 decades, I would categorically say, IRAN DOES NOT NEED THE BEST TURBOFAN ENGINE in the world. Iran just doesn't need it. The myth of turbofan is what the Americans have used to sell expensive engines and (more important to them), get MAINTENANCE contracts from Arab countries (so CIA can go and reside there) that cannot think for themselves and ask themselves, why would they need a turbofan, if they have so much oil, and if they have aerial refueling, and such an expensive piece of equipment, that has (depends on engine of course) about 30% more parts that can go wrong?

Any of the engines mentioned by Ray_Atek would work fine - IF IRAN'S AIR COMBAT STRATEGY IS SOUND.

The West have fooled everyone about turbofan. Ask people that I have worked with over many years, who actually maintained engines, they spoke to me as the liaison for engine re-design and structural analysis, and manufacturing. They told me what they think.

Never seen so many maintenance crews (an pilots), proportionately, love an engine as much as P&W J52 turbojet, and never seen more people hate the engine TF-30 turbofans as much as the people I worked with or came across through contact at RR, or the American military base in U.K. that had FB-111.

Yes there are some good turbofan engines, .... yes, AL31 is good, etc. etc. but let's be real here.

Do not let American marketing fool you into thinking that IT HAS TO BE A TURBOFAN. Absolutely not.

I would prefer Iran spend money (instead of an engine, and hiring someone like me), to spend money to turn Fakour 90, into a R37 - more efficient missile engine, high grade composite fuel tec-sip high energy with light composite body, or AIM 120D and/or Meteor missiles.

Turbofan does not offer IRREPLACIBLE ADVANTAGE.

Once again, DOES NOT OFFER IRREPLACIBLE ADVANTAGE.

Multi-channel, multi-mode, multi-band AESA radar DOES. R37 with its incredible range and Meteor, DO.

Iran does not have enough money, nor time, to invest in turbofan of 30,000 lb class.

It cannot also buy from Russia, not in a sensible way either. Iran should, as I have bored all of you so many times, need to rely on its own and use one of the engines that Ray-Atek mentioned above. It is perfectly fine.

If IRIAF researcher are visiting this site, as I know they do, DO NOT FALL FOR THE TRAP OF AMERICANS. Take a look at the IRGC, they fight based on America's weaknesses, not strengths. U.S. would LOVE for Iran to get bugged down in engine development for the next 20 years. Don't do them a favor. Iran already spends 35% of its IRIAF budget on retirement funds, war wounded salaries and compensation, etc. Iran does not have the money to spend on such a huge mistake.

Simpler turbojet engines of late 1970s, are pretty good, for what Iran needs. Many known knowns, much quicker for Iran to develop, EVEN add todays technology to the old design (when it makes sense), e.g. blade coating, etc.

My humble opinion, of course.

Long live the wonderful, righteous nation of Iran and her brave people.

Well Iran has tried to build jets. They have come a long way but still have a long way to go. It's not easy to build a fighter jet that lives up to world standards. Only a few countries monopolize this industry.

Aside from the USA, Russia, China, the only other countries that have been able to do it have had to use their technology. Even the Chinese are still using Russian engines. It's not easy to accomplish.

Iran can get there but needs to cooperate with Russia / China to be able to actually build jets that are world class. Right now Iran's airforce needs fighter jets. Some jets are 50 years old. They won't last another 20 years.

Look I would love to see Iran build fighter jets, 4th gen and 5th gen that are world class, but without technology from outside it's not realistic. Look at Iran's drones. How did Iran go so far so quickly ? If Iran had not gotten its hands all those American drones, I can guarantee that Iran never would have been able to go so far. Look at Turkey, their drones 90% of vital parts are foreign.

It's not easy and takes time. First it begins by reverse engineering some parts, Then eventually building a copy with some domestic parts. Then building a copy with mostly domestic parts. Then eventually designing something indigenous and building the parts, assembly line, etc, that is the end goal.

That is how the Chinese have built anything, including tanks, jets and everything else. In many cases, after 50 years the Chinese are still copying in mass. Again it's not easy and takes time.

Engines manufacturing: Not just US, Russian, and China, let's not forget France, UK, and Germany. They can build good engines too, although have little incentive to do so.

 

[sha ah]

Sorry I placed EU countries under the US (NATO) umbrella for simplicity sake but yes France, UK, Germany can build fighter jets.

Whatever the leadership in Iran want to do they have to get going. If they want to build a new platform then you are right, they have to rely on proven technology, not hype.

On the other hand if they feel like they cannot build something that is sufficient then purchasing from both Russia and China is a good choice since that way Iran won't be relying on one country for vital parts.

At the same time any purchase should include technology transfers and joint production to give Iran even more leverage in this regard. In my opinion, exposure to both Chinese and Russian technology, is better than just exposure to one. The more exposure and inspiration Iranian engineers have, the more likely it is that they will be able to successuflly produce a world class product.

Russia is low on funds for its weapons programs and hates the fact that China has been taking over its market share in the weapons industry. For this reason if Iran makes a purchase from China first, Russia will probably give Iran a more favorable deal to get Iran on board. At the end of the day, money makes the world go round.

Gentlemen,
At the risk of, no doubt, sounding like a broken record player ... I would say, the idea of needing a STATE OF THE ART ENGINE is borderline insanity, for Iran. I can justify this.

In 1962 An engine was produced for a fast car, it was a 5.0L TI-VCT-V8, for one of my favorite cars, a Ford Mach 1. This engine still to this day, is an awe inspiring engine. Yes, it is not Eco-Engine, does not have KL-KN-teptronic engine control system, it is not integrated with a computer as is many of high stack engines for top of the line cars, however, still to this day, this twin independent camshaft timing engine without any computer or other fancy bells and whistles, is powerful and reliable and doesn't have some of the major issues (when break down) that other fancy engines have. Much more reliable, even more than the Jaguar supercharged AJ126 5.0L that has Adaptive Dynamic InControl Sequential Shaft made in (yes) Germany, although people are told that it is in Coventry, LOL.

I was in Coventry with the main project director who was a friend of mine at University and we drove to Warwick (right by the castle) and had a beer (a few actually) at the Warwick Mill pub that has the glass floor and you can see the river underneath. He said, and I quote, "I wished we just used the 5.0 Ti-VCT-V8 with a engine management control computer, instead of all this development for a crappy engine, that has been nothing but an expensive f**** nightmare of idiocy.

My point:

Having worked in the Aviation Engine industry for 3 decades, I would categorically say, IRAN DOES NOT NEED THE BEST TURBOFAN ENGINE in the world. Iran just doesn't need it. The myth of turbofan is what the Americans have used to sell expensive engines and (more important to them), get MAINTENANCE contracts from Arab countries (so CIA can go and reside there) that cannot think for themselves and ask themselves, why would they need a turbofan, if they have so much oil, and if they have aerial refueling, and such an expensive piece of equipment, that has (depends on engine of course) about 30% more parts that can go wrong?

Any of the engines mentioned by Ray_Atek would work fine - IF IRAN'S AIR COMBAT STRATEGY IS SOUND.

The West have fooled everyone about turbofan. Ask people that I have worked with over many years, who actually maintained engines, they spoke to me as the liaison for engine re-design and structural analysis, and manufacturing. They told me what they think.

Never seen so many maintenance crews (an pilots), proportionately, love an engine as much as P&W J52 turbojet, and never seen more people hate the engine TF-30 turbofans as much as the people I worked with or came across through contact at RR, or the American military base in U.K. that had FB-111.

Yes there are some good turbofan engines, .... yes, AL31 is good, etc. etc. but let's be real here.

Do not let American marketing fool you into thinking that IT HAS TO BE A TURBOFAN. Absolutely not.

I would prefer Iran spend money (instead of an engine, and hiring someone like me), to spend money to turn Fakour 90, into a R37 - more efficient missile engine, high grade composite fuel tec-sip high energy with light composite body, or AIM 120D and/or Meteor missiles.

Turbofan does not offer IRREPLACIBLE ADVANTAGE.

Once again, DOES NOT OFFER IRREPLACIBLE ADVANTAGE.

Multi-channel, multi-mode, multi-band AESA radar DOES. R37 with its incredible range and Meteor, DO.

Iran does not have enough money, nor time, to invest in turbofan of 30,000 lb class.

It cannot also buy from Russia, not in a sensible way either. Iran should, as I have bored all of you so many times, need to rely on its own and use one of the engines that Ray-Atek mentioned above. It is perfectly fine.

If IRIAF researcher are visiting this site, as I know they do, DO NOT FALL FOR THE TRAP OF AMERICANS. Take a look at the IRGC, they fight based on America's weaknesses, not strengths. U.S. would LOVE for Iran to get bugged down in engine development for the next 20 years. Don't do them a favor. Iran already spends 35% of its IRIAF budget on retirement funds, war wounded salaries and compensation, etc. Iran does not have the money to spend on such a huge mistake.

Simpler turbojet engines of late 1970s, are pretty good, for what Iran needs. Many known knowns, much quicker for Iran to develop, EVEN add todays technology to the old design (when it makes sense), e.g. blade coating, etc.

My humble opinion, or course.

Long live the wonderful, righteous nation of Iran and her brave people.


Engines manufacturing: Not just US, Russian, and China, let's not forget France, UK, and Germany. They can build good engines too, although have little incentive to do so.