Mithridates
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IRIAF | News and Discussions
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Isn't Iran currently mining & producing Titanium ?
Last I heard, Kahnuj Titanium mine (the largest in Iran) produces 730 metric tons a year
https://financialtribune.com/articl...d-markets/9627/200m-for-kahnooj-titanium-mine
https://www.presstv.com/detail/2016/09/17/485086/iran-minerals-titanium-production-investment
Mithridates
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ordinary titanium does not used often you need alloys of it. seems like grade 5 titanium is most common alloy of ti which get used in planes structure.
Hack-Hook
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I did that also don't forget if you increase the diameter then you need more fuel for reaching the same amount of trust but you can reach higher trust.
Well if you look at the Rafale jet or the Eurofighter Typhoon for example, neither contain much Titanium at all, so really I don't understand why that would prevent Iran from building a modern & capable fighter jet. The Qaher is too small to carry any serious payload in my opinion & the Kowsar F-5 is a decent jet to supplement the airforce for now, but Iran really does require a modern & extremely capable multirole fighter jet
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The most hard to make material is Composite material.
But you mentioned good advancing in material using in a modern fighter.
Mithridates
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Mithridates
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Sineva
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Most of this is used in pigment production ie titanium dioxide.
My Farsi reading skills are pretty rusty. From what I could gather from the post, people seem to believe that it's a matter of will power & determination from the leadership ?
Throughout the years, Iran has played around with prototypes like the Shafagh / Borhan project for example, which as derived from the Yak-130. When it was first revealed, it actually seemed like a viable option that could go into serial production at some point, however nothing ever came out of it, despite rumors that it had been tested in a wind tunnel. Who knows, perhaps that's just it. Perhaps after putting it to the test, Iranian military heads & engineers realized that mass producing an unproven prototype that did not outperform older jets in Iran's current inventory wasn't worth the cost ?
From what I heard, the Shafagh was intended to be a light trainer / attack aircraft ? However to confuse matters more, Iran has recently come out with a decent prototype of the Kosar 88 (Not the Kowsar F-5) light, subsonic, trainer aircraft, although we haven't seen it fly yet. The Qaher adds more speculation into the mix, making a spectator like myself wonder, "WTF is going on in Iran's military?" I mean, the Qaher's latest prototype looks pretty sleek but if that prototype is at a 1:1 ratio then how can it carry a serious payload ?
On top of all this, Iran also recently began serial production of the F-5 Kowsar. However what's confusing about this latest Iranian variant of the F-5 (aside from having the same name as the Kosar 88 trainer) is that the jet designers seem to have reverted back to the original single fin design, whereas the previous incarnation of the Iranian made F-5, the Saeqeh, featured a twin fin design?
As you can imagine, all this is rather confusing to an enthusiast such as myself. Despite everything though, it does seem like Iran is progressing in terms of improving its capabilities in the aerospace industry & in the end even if these projects are merely stepping stones for Iran, then so be it. I just hope we see a decent, original, Iranian built multirole fighter jet. I know that Iran is capable of doing this, however I'm wondering, if funding is currently an issue with sanctions currently sucking the life out of Iran's budget?
Anyway, I hope that in 2020 we see Iran's airforce finally acquire some new jets from Russia. Some say that even a large order of brand new SU-30's would be too little too late, however considering the lack of modern aircraft in Iran's inventory, I believe that a fresh batch of SU-30's would be a welcome relief, a breath of fresh air for Iran's aging airforce. Many of the jets in Iran's airforce, like the F-4's are way past their retirement dates, having been used for 50 yrs now they need to be retired ASAP.
As for passenger planes, that's another issue all together, but to sum it up, Iran is in the same predicament. Many of the passenger planes in Iran's possession are past due & need to be retired & replaced ASAP. The problem is that every single model of every single civilian aircraft manufacturer in the world, even Russian & Chinese companies, are made up of atleast 10% American parts, meaning that they fall under the jurisdiction of the US treasury department.
I believe that Iran's best bet is to buy military transport planes like the Ilyushin 76 or Xian 120 & either modify them or order a special model in large quantities ? Obviously aircrafts such as these would not be the first choice to transport civilians, however once modified, from the inside there would hardly be any indication among passengers that they were in a modified military transport plane. To some, the mere idea might be laughable, however if you think about it, the large size of these planes could allow for a very roomy interior & larger seats for passengers. Another good thing about this option for Iran is that the fuel for these planes will cost Iran very little. North Korea is has already been forced to use the IL-76, however in their case, fuel is costly & I'm guessing budgetary constraints have prevented them from completely revamping/modifying the planes for civilian use.
I'm not saying that Iran should purchase 200 such planes however a decent number, like perhaps 40-60, can be purchased to supplement Iran's aging fleet of passenger jets until another solution can be found, with the only possible solutions being 1) the US drops its sanctions allowing Iran to preferably purchase western brands or 2) Iran produces its own passenger jet. The second options seems as if its quite some years away, especially with the memory of the Iran-140 (An-140) fiasco being fresh on the mind of Iranians.
Currently, according to Iranian officials, Iran is in need of 500 civilian airliners. I'm guessing that number is an exaggeration, however even with a requirement of 200-300 jets, capitalism should dictate that some enterprising entity should meet that demand. With that much demand & a willingness to pay for it, at the least with natural resources, which growing, energy hungry nations like China require for the foreseeable future, it would only seem rational for China & Russia to modify an existing model to suit Iran's needs ?
Throughout the years, Iran has played around with prototypes like the Shafagh / Borhan project for example, which as derived from the Yak-130. When it was first revealed, it actually seemed like a viable option that could go into serial production at some point, however nothing ever came out of it, despite rumors that it had been tested in a wind tunnel. Who knows, perhaps that's just it. Perhaps after putting it to the test, Iranian military heads & engineers realized that mass producing an unproven prototype that did not outperform older jets in Iran's current inventory wasn't worth the cost ?
From what I heard, the Shafagh was intended to be a light trainer / attack aircraft ? However to confuse matters more, Iran has recently come out with a decent prototype of the Kosar 88 (Not the Kowsar F-5) light, subsonic, trainer aircraft, although we haven't seen it fly yet. The Qaher adds more speculation into the mix, making a spectator like myself wonder, "WTF is going on in Iran's military?" I mean, the Qaher's latest prototype looks pretty sleek but if that prototype is at a 1:1 ratio then how can it carry a serious payload ?
On top of all this, Iran also recently began serial production of the F-5 Kowsar. However what's confusing about this latest Iranian variant of the F-5 (aside from having the same name as the Kosar 88 trainer) is that the jet designers seem to have reverted back to the original single fin design, whereas the previous incarnation of the Iranian made F-5, the Saeqeh, featured a twin fin design?
As you can imagine, all this is rather confusing to an enthusiast such as myself. Despite everything though, it does seem like Iran is progressing in terms of improving its capabilities in the aerospace industry & in the end even if these projects are merely stepping stones for Iran, then so be it. I just hope we see a decent, original, Iranian built multirole fighter jet. I know that Iran is capable of doing this, however I'm wondering, if funding is currently an issue with sanctions currently sucking the life out of Iran's budget?
Anyway, I hope that in 2020 we see Iran's airforce finally acquire some new jets from Russia. Some say that even a large order of brand new SU-30's would be too little too late, however considering the lack of modern aircraft in Iran's inventory, I believe that a fresh batch of SU-30's would be a welcome relief, a breath of fresh air for Iran's aging airforce. Many of the jets in Iran's airforce, like the F-4's are way past their retirement dates, having been used for 50 yrs now they need to be retired ASAP.
As for passenger planes, that's another issue all together, but to sum it up, Iran is in the same predicament. Many of the passenger planes in Iran's possession are past due & need to be retired & replaced ASAP. The problem is that every single model of every single civilian aircraft manufacturer in the world, even Russian & Chinese companies, are made up of atleast 10% American parts, meaning that they fall under the jurisdiction of the US treasury department.
I believe that Iran's best bet is to buy military transport planes like the Ilyushin 76 or Xian 120 & either modify them or order a special model in large quantities ? Obviously aircrafts such as these would not be the first choice to transport civilians, however once modified, from the inside there would hardly be any indication among passengers that they were in a modified military transport plane. To some, the mere idea might be laughable, however if you think about it, the large size of these planes could allow for a very roomy interior & larger seats for passengers. Another good thing about this option for Iran is that the fuel for these planes will cost Iran very little. North Korea is has already been forced to use the IL-76, however in their case, fuel is costly & I'm guessing budgetary constraints have prevented them from completely revamping/modifying the planes for civilian use.
I'm not saying that Iran should purchase 200 such planes however a decent number, like perhaps 40-60, can be purchased to supplement Iran's aging fleet of passenger jets until another solution can be found, with the only possible solutions being 1) the US drops its sanctions allowing Iran to preferably purchase western brands or 2) Iran produces its own passenger jet. The second options seems as if its quite some years away, especially with the memory of the Iran-140 (An-140) fiasco being fresh on the mind of Iranians.
Currently, according to Iranian officials, Iran is in need of 500 civilian airliners. I'm guessing that number is an exaggeration, however even with a requirement of 200-300 jets, capitalism should dictate that some enterprising entity should meet that demand. With that much demand & a willingness to pay for it, at the least with natural resources, which growing, energy hungry nations like China require for the foreseeable future, it would only seem rational for China & Russia to modify an existing model to suit Iran's needs ?
aryobarzan
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I buy your arguments about the military aircraft approach..many good points. However on the commercial (civilian) aircraft I have few points to add.
1- To develop a civilian aircraft requires lots of capital and external orders to make it commercially viable. Neither of those elements are in place for Iran for a foreseeable future.
2- Converting a military cargo type has some merits but I do not know if the end product is economically feasible but yes why not do some thinking on that!).
3- Why worry so much about civilian air travel in Iran...spend the money on modern rail networks and supper high ways within Iran. It is not like thousands of foreign tourists are lined up in European capital to travel to Iran. Tourists to Iran are mostly from neighbouring countries and they come via their own air carriers or by land routes.
4- The current political climate and the sanctions on Iran will eventually be resolved. It is then that the European/American tourists will line up to visit this magnificent country. Orders your top of the line airliners by then when the real need arrives. (Rohani's Incompetent government ordered all those planes from AirBus and Boeing as bribes to the west to get his nuclear deal).
5- Iran should spend the funds developing that final capable military aircraft/aviation infrastructure (they have done all the right moves so far ..learning curve is hard and painful especially for a country like Iran that 40 years ago only had repair and overhaul capability and has had to fight its way through 8 years of war and 40 years of sanctions).
6- Buy Russian or Chinese fighter aircraft as a stop-gap measure( if pains me to say that!!! even if you have to pay out of that 99 $billion oil fund) and keep on developing your own platform.
Having worked 35 years in Western aviation industries . I can see what a fantastic achievements Iranian engineers/managers have done so far. Morons like Trump, pompeo and Bolton and their fan boy Nata-yahoo can suck an egg! ..next 10 years will be even more amazing.
sahureka2
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he Russians also suffered US sanctions against their new commercial aircraft; they are currently working to replace US components on the new "Irkut MS-21-Ирку́т МС-21" in the Airbus 320 and Boeing 737 category,
whose second prototype has flown the past few days, and is also designed to use the new Russian engine PD-14 in phase
and the Ilyushin Il-114-300 twin-engine turboprop engine with new Russian Klimov TV7-117SM engines was put back into production with considerable improvements.
the first prototype under construction in a photo of 30 July 2018
The Il-114-300 aircraft is intended for the carriage of passengers, cargo, mail . The flight range of the IL-114-300 is up to 4,800 km. The aircraft is designed to carry up to 64 passengers.
Remember that Ilyushin is always building an IL-112 transport aircraft that will be used to replace the AN-24-AN-26. IL-112 will be in both military and civilian versions. The turboprop engines always gift of Klimov, but in the TV7-11ST version
The first flight of the prototype IL-112 will be within the next 20 days
Certainly they are not available today, but within 4/5 years the first units will be available for sales
I forgot:
Ilyushin is working on updating the Il-96-400M quadrangle project that will take the name of IL-496, can take on board up to 390 passengers. The large-diameter fuselage provides passengers with a modern level of comfort on long flights. The passenger cabin will be equipped with a modern information and entertainment system that provides access to the Internet, television and satellite communications, convenient luggage racks, and modern buffet and kitchen equipment. It is planned to install a modern flight-navigation complex on the plane, with which the IL-96-400M will meet all ICAO requirements for aircraft of a similar dimension.
The power plant will use more powerful PS-90A1 engines, but in the future it will be equipped with the new more efficient PD-35
Shere the old version Il-96-300 which has the shortest fuselage of 9,65 meters if compared to the new IL-496
Today Russian aircraft manufacturer Ilyushin gave a sneak peak of the new interiors for its wide-body IL-96-400 project, also known as IL-496.
https://www.aerotime.aero/ina.hladyshava/22489-russian-ilyushin-shows-il-496-interiors
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Fafnir
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It looked like the TU204 was a real possibility for a while back during ahmadinejads presidency,unfortunately sanctions on some of the components in the russian/us designed PS90A2 meant that they couldnt be used and the russians in typical gutless fashion didnt want to alienate their best buds,this was back before crimea[lol!],however they did redesign the PS90A2 into the A3 without any western content.Sadly tho by that time rouhani was in power and was putting all his [forlorn] hopes into the west/jcpoa,ironically even after this the russians were talking about iran license producing TU204s,which made no sense economically so it was always hard to take the russians seriously about this sort of thing.Ultimately tho the russians would have to prove that the one area where they were always the weakest ie aftermarket support had been reformed,otherwise whats the point?.
Mithridates
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lack of infrastructure (regarding needed materials), courage, management and money. especially in airliner production because you don't expect them to be maneuverable and making one is within our experience and infrastructure capabilities.
shafaq was not just a trainer it supposed to have three versions: 1-two seat trainer/light attack 2-one seat fighter 3-one seat stealth multirole. but after russia abandoned the project under US pressure we couldn't finish it.
you should compare f-313 with our f-5 and US f-117. it will have a payload weight of 2000-4000 lb and stealth and i don't think that it's inferior to f-5 because f-5s combat payload was two mark-83 and two sidewinders so we won't lose anything if we replace them with f-313.
about su-30s it seems like we will acquire sme models and in really large quantity
so much that PGCC air forces combined will not pose a threat to us.TheImmortal
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Fighter jets are not easy, many countries such as Japan, Germany, etc have much higher capability to build their own fighter jets, but have passed and went with foreign fighters.
India has a much higher military budget, more experience, greater engineer base, under ZERO sanctions, full access to foreign technology and transfer of tech. Yet it’s own fighter jet Program has still struggled. And to top it all off, they are currently looking at foreign fighters to modernize their aging airforce.
In case of Pakistan they got full TOT of a Chinese fighter. But Pakistan still does not have the ability to build its own indegenious fighter jet design.
Thus Iran will likely not be able to secure TOT from Russia, at least not for the plane it wants (SU-30/SU-35).
People are over simplifying the fighter jet production process.
Iran is not in a position to build fighter jets plain and simple. Even if it wanted to, it would be cost prohibitive and with a pathetic military budget of $14 billion dollars that’s not going to do much in the way of anything.
Air Force realizes the hurdles, the bottlenecks, the set backs and rather just wait to buy foreign fighters. With foreign fighters you know what your getting and you know the performance.
Furthermore, Air Force feels comfortable that it’s engineer base can keep any foreign fighter flying even if they were to get cut off from the parent country like in 1979.
So Iran can spend 2-3 Billion and get a substantial amount of fighters or spend 1 billion to R&D a fighter that may never make it to mass production in significant numbers.
Borhan/Shafagh failed because Air Force didn’t put in any orders in for it. Kowsar is not the answer either other than a upgrade/replacement package for aging F-5’s.
In 10 years we will see where Iran has gone in this field and the results may be disappointing.
Luckily in the drone space, Iran is a top tier power and that will only help it in the future.
India has a much higher military budget, more experience, greater engineer base, under ZERO sanctions, full access to foreign technology and transfer of tech. Yet it’s own fighter jet Program has still struggled. And to top it all off, they are currently looking at foreign fighters to modernize their aging airforce.
In case of Pakistan they got full TOT of a Chinese fighter. But Pakistan still does not have the ability to build its own indegenious fighter jet design.
Thus Iran will likely not be able to secure TOT from Russia, at least not for the plane it wants (SU-30/SU-35).
People are over simplifying the fighter jet production process.
Iran is not in a position to build fighter jets plain and simple. Even if it wanted to, it would be cost prohibitive and with a pathetic military budget of $14 billion dollars that’s not going to do much in the way of anything.
Air Force realizes the hurdles, the bottlenecks, the set backs and rather just wait to buy foreign fighters. With foreign fighters you know what your getting and you know the performance.
Furthermore, Air Force feels comfortable that it’s engineer base can keep any foreign fighter flying even if they were to get cut off from the parent country like in 1979.
So Iran can spend 2-3 Billion and get a substantial amount of fighters or spend 1 billion to R&D a fighter that may never make it to mass production in significant numbers.
Borhan/Shafagh failed because Air Force didn’t put in any orders in for it. Kowsar is not the answer either other than a upgrade/replacement package for aging F-5’s.
In 10 years we will see where Iran has gone in this field and the results may be disappointing.
Luckily in the drone space, Iran is a top tier power and that will only help it in the future.
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