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Why are you panicking? Do you have financial ties with HESA?

You should be happy your land is going to have better protection
no I don't have tie with Rosobronexport and i have enough experience about such news

Denial of the former shah regime's subservience to the west, which among other things translated into massive acquisition of over-priced western weapons and the lack of any serious effort to develop a domestic defence industry, as well as staunch support for a political camp whose leading public voices officially dismiss the concept of self-sufficiency as "backwardness", does not square with the described patriotic outlook.
and you guys advocating the same mistake with Russia
by the way f-14 was the best available at the time , su-35 is nowhere near the best but a platform based on an obsolete philosophy.
 
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APG-77 AESA (F-22A)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 20 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 35 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 112 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 200 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 300 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 355 km+

APG-81 AESA (F-35A/B/C)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 16 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 28 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 90 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 160 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 240 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 285 km+


F-22 detects F-14 (estimated RCS of 20-50) at 355KM and F-35 detects it 285KM. Meanwhile F-14 likely won’t detect either fighter jet unless extremely close (<20KM) if at all.

F-22 detects Kowsar (RCS 1-5) at 200-300KM and F-35 detects Kowsar at 160-240KM. Again Kowsar with its weak small radar will not detect either fighter jet prior to being killed by a BVR.

Conclusion: Both F-14 and Kowsar will likely be killed at 150KM-200KM away from either USA 5th Gen fighter jet and will have no clue what hit them.

I hope that puts this in perspective for anyone having any delusions about Iran’s current fighter jets.

Iran should be thanking America for retiring the F-22 so soon, they would slaughter the Iranian airforce within 1 week.
 
APG-77 AESA (F-22A)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 20 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 35 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 112 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 200 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 300 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 355 km+

APG-81 AESA (F-35A/B/C)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 16 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 28 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 90 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 160 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 240 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 285 km+
These numbers are manufacturer's published data none of which is proven in real battles or even in any known published exercise. Furthermore, if such numbers were to be taken for granted, then the US made Patriot SAM systems PAC-3, PAC-3 MSE or the newer PAAC-4 would erase any air target with ease, and yet, to this day since the first Gulf war in 1990, then the Iraqi freedom war (?) in early 2000, and the conflict in Yemen the system failed to shoot down a single old Iraqi SCUD missile or even come close to intercept any of the dozens of Iranian Drones and missiles aimed at Saudi oil installations. In a span of 9 years of the war in Yemen, the system "conformed" downed only two crude Drones while the Yemenis were wreaking havoc on the Saudis and their US allies. According to Theodore Postol of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and Reuven Pedatzur of Tel Aviv University testified before a US House Committee stating that, according to their independent analysis of video tapes, the Patriot system had a success rate of below 10%, and perhaps even a zero success rate" End of quote.
Almost forgot; 48 hours ago a salvo of 30 Patriot PAC-3 MSE "or a cluster of 8 batteries each having 4 missiles" failed to intercept a single Russian missile and ended up being destroyed by a Russian Kenzal missile.

The numbers you stated are even worse since operating an Aircraft during a conflict is many folds more complex and prone to human error versus a simple SAM system which has a single function. In the best of conditions these numbers are phony hypothetical estimates printed on the Lockheed Martin's sales catalogues to impress the US congress and the Pentagon to buy those gadgets even though both the congress and the Pentagon know for sure that all these numbers are false and fabrications but they are all in it as partners in crime to defraud the American public.
F-22 detects F-14 (estimated RCS of 20-50) at 355KM and F-35 detects it 285KM. Meanwhile F-14 likely won’t detect either fighter jet unless extremely close (<20KM) if at all.

F-22 detects Kowsar (RCS 1-5) at 200-300KM and F-35 detects Kowsar at 160-240KM. Again Kowsar with its weak small radar will not detect either fighter jet prior to being killed by a BVR.

Conclusion: Both F-14 and Kowsar will likely be killed at 150KM-200KM away from either USA 5th Gen fighter jet and will have no clue what hit them.
Simplistic conclusion based on data given by weapons manufacturers most of which is hogwash.
I hope that puts this in perspective for anyone having any delusions about Iran’s current fighter jets.
What makes you so overly pessimistic about the efforts of thousands of Iranian scientist and engineers who work on such projects? I am sure you have no idea about what Iran is doing or they're planning to do as they won't be telegraphing their secrets on public forums, they are not that stupid . . . ! Unless you have insider information about what's taking place in Iran's military industries labs and workshops.
Iran should be thanking America for retiring the F-22 so soon, they would slaughter the Iranian airforce within 1 week.
If America was that good and that capable, then there would be no Iran, you would be speaking English now, but they aren't and you're not speaking English. The F-22 was retired due to astronomical cost, too many defects, and countless bugs that were impossible to fix, as well as many other factors that no one knows. It was simply an expensive dysfunctional war gadget that failed the real functionality test of a Jet fighter despite all the hype and the wasted tens of billions of US taxpayers' money. The US MIC is the A-Team of Crime Inc. fully capable of convincing hundreds of millions of people to the existence of flying pigs but pigs don't fly albeit most people think America could wipe out Iran in few days which is amazing.
 
These numbers are manufacturer's published data none of which is proven in real battles or even in any known published exercise. Furthermore, if such numbers were to be taken for granted, then the US made Patriot SAM systems PAC-3, PAC-3 MSE or the newer PAAC-4 would erase any air target with ease, and yet, to this day since the first Gulf war in 1990, then the Iraqi freedom war (?) in early 2000, and the conflict in Yemen the system failed to shoot down a single old Iraqi SCUD missile or even come close to intercept any of the dozens of Iranian Drones and missiles aimed at Saudi oil installations. In a span of 9 years of the war in Yemen, the system "conformed" downed only two crude Drones while the Yemenis were wreaking havoc on the Saudis and their US allies. According to Theodore Postol of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and Reuven Pedatzur of Tel Aviv University testified before a US House Committee stating that, according to their independent analysis of video tapes, the Patriot system had a success rate of below 10%, and perhaps even a zero success rate" End of quote.
Almost forgot; 48 hours ago a salvo of 30 Patriot PAC-3 MSE "or a cluster of 8 batteries each having 4 missiles" failed to intercept a single Russian missile and ended up being destroyed by a Russian Kenzal missile.

With such absurd logic all of Iran’s air defense systems are useless as well. If you understand how the type of radars used for search, tracking, and engagement, how kinetic energy of a AD missile works, F-pole bleed maneuvering, then you will realize air defense systems are built similarly based on what they are asked to intercept.

Some air defense systems of more KE expenditure in their interceptors to face off against BMs (ex THAAD) versus others that would likely bleed too much energy against the enemy RV countermeasures.

There is so much wrong in the post, I’m not going to waste time by arguing with you. With such logic S-300 is useless because they couldn’t detect TB2 during Armenian war or Ukrainian war. The air defense system is only as good as the data it is fed. A system outside of network is much weaker than a system connected to information sharing network with hundreds of radar points sending data.

If you truly think Patriot missile system has an intercept rate of “less than 10%” and didn’t intercept any missiles during Yemen war, you are lost and are also saying Iranian air defense systems are garbage too.

There is no world where equivalent versions of the Iranian system to THAAD, PAC, Arrow, David’s Sling (if they existed) would do 90% vs their western counterpart of 10%.

I’m not trying to talk about Western products. I’m just saying reality of situation. These systems all operate on laws of physics and are developed with costs vs select engagement of a list of targets in mind. Ex. Increase the performance of a type of groud based radar comes at high performance cost when on which means it’s off most of the time. Hence why most high grade radars outside of wartime or alerts from other systems (Early warning) are not operating….to save costs.


The numbers you stated are even worse since operating an Aircraft during a conflict is many folds more complex and prone to human error versus a simple SAM system which has a single function. In the best of conditions these numbers are phony hypothetical estimates printed on the Lockheed Martin's sales catalogues to impress the US congress and the Pentagon to buy those gadgets even though both the congress and the Pentagon know for sure that all these numbers are false and fabrications but they are all in it as partners in crime to defraud the American public.

More conjecture. A SAM system is anything but “simple”. In fact a SAM intercepting a BM is magnitudes more complex than building a fighter jet. Nazi Germany had fighter jets 80 years ago, when was the first air defense system that could intercept a BM?

Let me educate you, BM existed since V1 and V2 so again 80 years. Attempts to build an air defense system by USA started in 1950’s. Never went anywhere.

Soviets had the first successful intercept in 1960’s of a BM during a test. Considered not cost:feasible. It wasn’t until 1980’s when mass production of air defense system capable of intercepting a BM was produced. So “simple SAM” is ironic comment.
Simplistic conclusion based on data given by weapons manufacturers most of which is hogwash.

Pretty much everything you wrote is hogwash and denial. Militaries all around the world test their radars (both airborne and grounded) against the RCS of various size objects including Iran and literally every other military power on this planet. It is literally hypothesis and scientific testing 101 to determine wether a system should advance in R&D. This is information is usually classified, but US military industrial complex is composed of publically traded companies.

Not that it matters at the topic at hand which is radar detection of RCS objects at specified intervals, which is based on the type of radar, wavelength, and RCS. It’s mostly physics. So manufacture cannot “make things up” as you like to allude. Based on the type of radar a fighter jet Carries you can deduce the performance within a reasonable margin of error.

Thus Conclusions are the same. F-35/J-20 can obliterate Kowsar and F-14. Even if both 5th Gen fighters were RCS exposed at a .5m2 RCS (nearly 50x their calculated frontal RCS) neither F-14 or Kowsar could get a lock before being destroyed by a BVR.

Iran knows this, hence it operates on concept of deterrence via BMs and its magnitude Missile arsenal to make up for the weaknesses in Air Power.

But like myself and others have alluded to, BMs alone are not the solution. You need a stop gaps alongside a serious domestic fighter program. Requires enormous commitment of capital and vision.
 
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If America was that good and that capable, then there would be no Iran, you would be speaking English now,

This makes zero sense. Does Iraq speak English? Does Saudi Arabia? British occupied Iran in WWI. Did they change Iranian language? US had firm control over Iran till 1980. Did they change the language?

Clueless Joe and his comments

. The F-22 was retired due to astronomical cost, too many defects, and countless bugs that were impossible to fix, as well as many other factors that no one knows. It was simply an expensive dysfunctional war gadget that failed the real functionality test of a Jet fighter despite all the hype and the wasted tens of billions of US taxpayers' money.

2005 - 2025 means at least 20 years (more like 40 since prototypes flew in the 80’s/90’s). So how did it fail? The technologies that make up the F-35 came from its predecessor.

If you do one iota of research the fighter jet was actually pretty successful, so much so that Congress was angry that they stopped production lines back when cost overruns were a concern in its early production years.

The reality now is the plane got old compared to F-35. And with no more production facilities in existence the plane means no new versions, thus the original models became costlier to maintain. It’s a high maintenance plane, just like Iran’s F-14’s. But air superiority wise it was very succesful for what it was asked to do. However, probably too early for its time since none of its rivals (China or Russia) fielded anything remotely close for over a decade. Well Russia still hasn’t field theirs. At least China has the J-20 in sufficient numbers.
 
This makes zero sense. Does Iraq speak English? Does Saudi Arabia? British occupied Iran in WWI. Did they change Iranian language? US had firm control over Iran till 1980. Did they change the language?

Clueless Joe and his comments



2005 - 2025 means at least 20 years (more like 40 since prototypes flew in the 80’s/90’s). So how did it fail? The technologies that make up the F-35 came from its predecessor.

If you do one iota of research the fighter jet was actually pretty successful, so much so that Congress was angry that they stopped production lines back when cost overruns were a concern in its early production years.

The reality now is the plane got old compared to F-35. And with no more production facilities in existence the plane means no new versions, thus the original models became costlier to maintain. It’s a high maintenance plane, just like Iran’s F-14’s. But air superiority wise it was very succesful for what it was asked to do. However, probably too early for its time since none of its rivals (China or Russia) fielded anything remotely close for over a decade. Well Russia still hasn’t field theirs. At least China has the J-20 in sufficient numbers.

What’s a realistic timeline for the modernization of Iran’s air-force vs an optimistic one you think?

I’m not confident in any domestically produced jet being fielded in sufficient quantities anytime soon (within a decade or more).

Feels like any hope for a rival in the IRIAF lies on massive purchases of foreign fighters.
 
What’s a realistic timeline for the modernization of Iran’s air-force vs an optimistic one you think?

Assuming we get SU-35 in 2023. We still need a stop gap to an Iranian fighter jet. So either license production of SU-30, more SU-35, J-10C, FC-31. Most of Iran’s airforce will have to be mothballed in 2030’s due to stress on airframes and increasing costs of maintenance. By 2040 even Tomcats won’t be able to fly. (Almost 70 years old at that point!)

I expect (hope) by 2025-2030 Iran will unveil an RD-33 or better class engine. They have told us they are working on something in that class. The issue then becomes ok now you have managed to build an engine, what’s the production rate per year? This has plagued Iran since owj. The construction of necessary facilities. Supply chain optimization. List goes on and on.

If Iran gets serious now they could have a fighter jet in sufficient quantities by 2035-2040. Back in 2010-2015 I was hopefully by 2025-2030, but that has now been pushed back at least a decade.

I mean China has already built 200+ J-20 and they started mass production in like 2018! Which just goes to show you: if you have the capital, the industrial base, the ability, and the desire you can revamp your entire airforce in 20 years or less.

I still don’t think Iran has made that determined decision like we did back in 2000’s to revamp our air defense. Prior to 2010 our air defense was made up of Hawks, S-200, some Chinese systems, some other old Soviet/US systems, and TOR-M1. Now look at our air defense program. The difference is the effort, capital, and willpower was allocated to that project.
 
The difference is the effort, capital, and willpower was allocated to that project.

I couldn't agree with this part more. A clear and precise goal, government support and hard work, day and night for however long it takes, no matter the obstacles ahead is what is needed for a successful iranian combat aircraft program. But so far the required level of support, focus and competence has been lacking sorely, which is why i'm so scathing at whoever morons/ incompetents/corrupts were behind Saeqeh, Qaher and other such pitiful examples, and certainly when some persons keep peddling them as some kind of monumental achievements.

I keep bringing the DPRK example, if 10 or 15 years ago someone said they're going to build ICBMs that reach Washington, certainly the westerners were laughing. But who is having the last laugh now? They worked hard, relentlessly, not matter what the obstacles for their goal. And yeah, you wanna bet DPRK will create a competent, decent manned combat aircraft before Iran? Don't be surprised, if the current state of affairs in the iranian aviation industry continues.

I say it again, put whoever was in charge of the development of SAMs or drones, in charge of aviation development if you want Iran to meaningfully advance in this field as well.
 
Assuming we get SU-35 in 2023. We still need a stop gap to an Iranian fighter jet. So either license production of SU-30, more SU-35, J-10C, FC-31. Most of Iran’s airforce will have to be mothballed in 2030’s due to stress on airframes and increasing costs of maintenance. By 2040 even Tomcats won’t be able to fly. (Almost 70 years old at that point!)
Tomcats might be worth rebuilding if they get modernized somehow.

I expect (hope) by 2025-2030 Iran will unveil an RD-33 or better class engine. They have told us they are working on something in that class. The issue then becomes ok now you have managed to build an engine, what’s the production rate per year? This has plagued Iran since owj. The construction of necessary facilities. Supply chain optimization. List goes on and on.
It will be difficult to jump from owj to something like an RD-33. Don't you think there needs to be something in between? Not that RD-33 is the biggest most powerful engine in the world, I think it's quite realistic.
 
Tomcats might be worth rebuilding if they get modernized somehow.

Tomcats are worthless. Their RCS is probably anywhere between 25-50. From a different era where radar and AD technology was not nearly what it is today.

Better off taking the J-20, F-22, F-35 airframe as a basis/inspiration then trying to redesign an F-14 into a stealth interceptor.

It will be difficult to jump from owj to something like an RD-33. Don't you think there needs to be something in between? Not that RD-33 is the biggest most powerful engine in the world, I think it's quite realistic.

It can be done, iran has retired engineers living in the country that worked on the engines of F-35, F-16, F-18, etc.

There was a user here who had once had a connection to the military who said he was told by this connection that Iran had several engine designs built and undergoing stress testing. Many of the designs were failing this stage of R&D, but one showed enough promise to reach mass production model. This was 3 years or so ago. Wether or not the user was telling the truth who knows, but I expect within next 3 years Iran will unveil a new class jet engine.

Ideally Iran needs something in AL-31 class or even AL-21 class in terms of power, but RD-33 is sufficient enough to get the job done for a medium size fighter.

It’s possible the next Iranian jet engine is a new design using inspiration from others similar to what the Chinese did. But I also won’t surprised if it looks very similar to either Russian or American engine as that is a much easier road than building from a new design from scratch.
 
F-14 Tomcat is not useless as it has large nose and large turbofan engines, it can be used as platform to test new radar and jet engines.
RCS of F-14 is 25 that is same as F-15E and former can have just as potent radar as latter.
In case Iran manages to develop F110/AL-31 tier engine then range of 3000km.
Even more with auxiliary fuel tanks and could loiter for 6+ hours.

At very least it could be used in role of AWACS on battlefield.
 
F-14 Tomcat is not useless as it has large nose and large turbofan engines, it can be used as platform to test new radar and jet engines.

It is useless in context of future warefare (2040 and beyond) the plane is nearly is almost 60 years old. It’s maintenance heavy and likely cost Iran (relative to everything else) a lot to keep flying.

RCS of F-14 is 25 that is same as F-15E and former can have just as potent radar as latter.

I see no indication it’s RCS is def 25. Unknown at this point. Hence why I said 25-50. Which immediately puts it at a disadvantage on the future battlefield. Now if its RCS was 1-2 then it certainly helps level playing field.

But when it has the RCS of a mini AWAC, any modern 4++ or 5th Gen fighter can detect it at BVR distance; even if it’s flying dark (strict emission controls).

In case Iran manages to develop F110/AL-31 tier engine then range of 3000km.
Even more with auxiliary fuel tanks and could loiter for 6+ hours.

At very least it could be used in role of AWACS on battlefield.

Too expensive for such a role. Better to use future IR-140 in a AWAC/ELINT/SIGNIT role and install a much more powerful radar on it alongside a SAR and ECW mechanisms.
 
Your reply is utter nonsense and embarrassment to any intelligent lifeform on this planet.

F-14 is disposable so why lose a brand new aircraft by testing new engine along new radar as an example.

China conducts tests of new radar and engines on older aircraft until they are used on newer production aircraft.

F-14 is ideal testbed for both because it is basically in terms of size for engines and radar comparable to Su-27 series and its variants like Su-30 and Su-35.

Also RCS of an aircraft can be reduced through use of for example composite materials replacing parts made out of aluminum.

Thus integrity could be tested on F-14 on the quality of the material since F-14 can go over Mach 2.
 
It is high time for Iran to shut the mouth of a General The Immortal who makes analyzes of an imbecile and a living room nerd. He is far from understanding the tactics of real war. He's a real clown who will soon lose face here on this forum because he has no intuition

In the kowsar, there are elements of artificial intelligence which dialogue with drones in the sky, it must not be forgotten in a combat tactic. Imagine the F-35s and other fighter jets that will confront Iran in the sky. Iran has hundreds of different radars on the ground with so many different frequencies. Hundreds of air defense systems, intelligent artillery.

Imagine the decoys that will take place in heaven and on earth. Imagine Iran's different highly mastered electronic warfare attack. Due to the integrated defense and the upgrading of several combat aircraft, Iran will surprise the enemy on several levels. In addition, Iran is building several high-powered mobile radars that will help planes in the sky.

Drones can even sacrifice themselves instead of planes by taking a missile on their heads. With very mountainous terrain like Iran, they have a strategic advantage. The F-35 is far too overrated aircraft that will strike quite easily.

Imagining the magnetic fog that Iran will produce, I think it will be very powerful and surprising. Iran has already blinded a CIA satellite, people seem to forget about it here.

And let's wait for the continuation of things because there are secrets of wars in reserve.
 

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