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Still leaves us with the mystery of how they got there. It's extremely unlikely that they might be captured from the Russians. Smuggling?

No mystery in my response. Iran is not supplying weapons to the regime in Kiev.



Some, including myself believe they were sold to independent arms dealers (Viktor Bout types) or 3rd party countries and re-sold/re-shipped to Ukraine

Their are a number of countries like Pakistan for example, that can facilitate this purchase and transfer since they have certain sanction exceptions.

To be clear, Iran is not transferring any weaponry to Ukraine, whether directly or through intermediaries. Iran has no control over former customers and what they do with Iranian munitions.

There's no scheme to arm Ukraine in which Iran would be knowingly and actively participating, simple as that.
 
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I think the simplest is honestly the weapons seized during American and British operations off the coast of Yemen that were destined to go to Houthis.

Dumbest explanation considering Houthi’s don’t operate attack helicopters to use these types of rockets or in previous cases the unique size of artillery rounds that has ended up in Ukraine.

But why use common logic when mental gymnastics can be such an easier alternative.

There's no scheme to arm Ukraine in which Iran would be knowingly and actively participating, simple as that.

Presenting opinion as fact.
 
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I substantiated it with multiple facts, whilst the opposite suggestion isn't backed by anything tangible.

You dismiss actual physical evidence as nothing more propaganda and paint jobs.

Your facts is your beyond optimistic interpretation of current Russian-Iranian relations and “Ukraine hates Iran so they wouldn’t get Iranian arms”. US and Israel were hated by Iran, that didn’t stop both supplying arms to Iran (and Iran accepting) during Iran-Iraq war. Geopolitics is complicated reality. Russia knows that quite well given how it has treated Iran since 1990’s.

You remind me of the book 1987, with how quickly in your mind you can remake history to fit the current climate.

I learned long ago to not argue with you. Your type of optimistic thinking is highly dangerous to the Republic today, which has led to the worst riots since the start of the Republic.

Facts are Iranian arms are somehow making it to the Ukraine battlefield. No amount of photoshop, propaganda, stolen from a Houthi boat or Mossad agents, can explain it. All just Foreign Ministry like plausible deniability.
 
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You dismiss actual physical evidence as nothing more propaganda and paint jobs.

It isn't actual physical evidence. Apart from the mentioned paint, there's nothing to discriminate between these and their equivalents in use by US-allied armies or by Ukraine itself.

You dismiss the US regime's incentive to wage psy-ops against the Iran-Russia partnership. You dismiss open calls by Washington think tanks for measures destined to undermine said partnership. Among other things, this is what such measures can be expected to look like. And you dismiss NATO regimes' extensive record of spreading fabrications with the express purpose of disturbing ties between Iran and her partners and allies (e.g. the Persian and Arabic services of the BBC spewing the exact same types of bogus stories to their respective audiences, about Iraqi / Iranian pilgrims abusing pilgrimage tours for temporary marriage with local females etc).

Your facts is your beyond optimistic interpretation of current Russian-Iranian relations

A description of a present state of affairs, not a forecast.

and “Ukraine hates Iran so they wouldn’t get Iranian arms”.

The norm is that antagonistic governments do not arm each other with weaponry. So yes, it's a weighty argument.

US and Israel were hated by Iran, that didn’t stop both supplying arms to Iran (and Iran accepting) during Iran-Iraq war. Geopolitics is complicated reality. Russia knows that quite well given how it has treated Iran since 1990’s.

The zionist regime did not supply weapons on its own initiative. Rather, Washington drew on Isra"el"i stockpiles and the services of some Isra"el"i arms dealer in order to cover its tracks, seeing how it was a secret operation which the US Congress was unlawfully being kept in the dark about.

Secondly, reasons for this rare exception to the rule are known: attacks on American interests and military by pro-Iranian groups in Lebanon, western hostages held over there and a subsequent desire by the USA regime to deescalate.

It's up to you to provide reasons as to why you're assuming the same sort of exception would apply in the present case. Simply citing extraordinary instances from the past will not suffice in the face of how regular foreign policy is conducted.

You remind me of the book 1987, with how quickly in your mind you can remake history to fit the current climate.

The book 1987? I guess that should be 1984. Also I'm at a loss as to what part of history I supposedly rewrote.

I learned long ago to not argue with you.

In that case you might want to refrain from tagging or quoting me.

Your type of optimistic thinking is highly dangerous to the Republic today, which has led to the worst riots since the start of the Republic.

One wonders what sort of optimism is meant here in relation to those riots, and how it relates to the topic at hand.

Facts are Iranian arms are somehow making it to the Ukraine battlefield.

Not a fact, rather something which western "Twitter" accounts dedicated to repeating NATO propaganda, are attempting to suggest with photographs of token amounts of munitions which Ukraine or other US-allied governments literally happen to own stockpiles of, and which can be made to look as Iranian copies by virtue of a simple paint job.

No amount of photoshop, propaganda, stolen from a Houthi boat or Mossad agents, can explain it. All just Foreign Ministry like plausible deniability.

Even if these were Iranian-made, for which there's no proof, the unsubstantiated assertion that Iran is arming Ukraine would remain a far-fetched one given the possibility of some former customer(s) of Iran supplying Kiev against Iran's will.

Not to mention the absence of complaints from Moscow, practically a year after pro-NATO users on "Twitter" started with these posts. The fact that there hasn't been any discernible downgrading of Russian ties with Iran (quite the contrary) is telling. Plausible deniability or not, if Iran was arming Ukraine then Moscow would know and mutual ties would find themselves considerably affected.

No, Russia would not take such a move lightly. Nor would it be comparable with Russian hesitation to down zionist fighter jets over Palestinian airspace. Actively arming a party Russia is in the process of fighting a high-intensity war against, viewed by Moscow as no less than existential in nature, is another pair of shoes altogether. It'd doubtlessly be met by a clear, visible reaction from Russia, however no such thing can be seen in current bilateral relations.

Some inconclusive photographs posted by biased "Twitter" users on the one hand, and a whole series of compelling geopolitical realities on the other. Seems obvious to me which hypothesis enjoys more credibility.
 
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Dumbest explanation considering Houthi’s don’t operate attack helicopters to use these types of rockets or in previous cases the unique size of artillery rounds that has ended up in Ukraine.

But why use common logic when mental gymnastics can be such an easier alternative.



Presenting opinion as fact.
My bad I didn’t see the part about them being air to ground rockets, but yeah many of the other weapons going to Ukraine can be attributed to America transferring weapons seized during Yemen operations. But yeah fasting and just half reading during isn’t really helpful, taking a break either way during Ramadan have a great rest of the day.
 
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More Iranian weapons showing up in Ukraine.
No problem with this. Russian has sold weapons to everybody. Even worse. They had an agreement to turn off the S300 when aerial israeli attacks frequently IRGC personnel in Syria... So if they doesn´t have this kind of moral clash... Iran too.
They are already built aircraft, at least the first 24 are
They are specifically export versions and therefore could hardly be used with the parameters of the VVS RF.
Therefore SU-35 for export but made for Egypt's needs and specifications, therefore it is probable that they have returned to the aeronautical workshops to be updated to the requests and specifications requested by the IRIAF.
Finally I think that all of us, myself included, spend useless words, because:
1) The deal has been confirmed;
2) No official information that this agreement is not true;
3) But until the delivery takes place, everything is possible;
4) Therefore all of us instead of making statements without proof with which only personal hypotheses are made and as the only consequence leads others to always respond with only hypotheses not having certain proofs; this will lead to an endless discussion, just taking up space, while the obvious thing to do inherent in the SU-35 issue would be to wait for events.
Don´t suffer that much. If Russia doesn´t want to sell the planes... Shenyang would. And believe me, J16 it is far better than Su35, from the engine to the radar...

CAATSA sanctions has let Russia with few customer for advanced weaponries. IRIAF has managed to struggle without a recent air superiority fighter for decades. It is just a matter of saving a bit more of money and buy them to China.
 
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You dismiss the US regime's incentive to wage psy-ops against the Iran-Russia partnership. You dismiss open calls by Washington think tanks for measures destined to undermine said partnership. Among other things, this is what such measures can be expected to look like. And you dismiss NATO regimes' extensive record of spreading fabrications with the express purpose of disturbing ties between Iran and her partners and allies

You say this ^

Then managed to contradict yourself in the same post with this:

Plausible deniability or not, if Iran was arming Ukraine then Moscow would know and mutual ties would find themselves considerably affected.

And I actually agree with the second point. It makes your first point mental gymnastics. If Iran was arming Ukraine, then Russia would call the highest levels of Iranian government and discuss this with them. Not rely on “Twitter” posts as their source of information.

That is how governments work, not your theory that USA is planting fake evidence and then providing photos to obscure OSINT Twitter accounts so that hopefully Putin and Russian Brass see it and yell at Iran. That’s just quite asinine.
 
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You say this ^

Then managed to contradict yourself in the same post with this:

It's examining different eventualities and demonstrating how they will lead to the same conclusion.

And I actually agree with the second point. It makes your first point mental gymnastics. If Iran was arming Ukraine, then Russia would call the highest levels of Iranian government

So you agree that Russia not having summoned Iran's envoy nor shown any discernible reaction points to Iran not arming Ukraine. Then there's nothing to discuss since this is very much the gist of what I've been saying all along.

and discuss this with them. Not rely on “Twitter” posts as their source of information.

That is how governments work, not your theory that USA is planting fake evidence and then providing photos to obscure OSINT Twitter accounts so that hopefully Putin and Russian Brass see it and yell at Iran. That’s just quite asinine.

I wasn't suggesting that. If Iran had engaged in such side-deals, then of course Russia would've been informed through its intelligence agencies first and foremost, not through "Twitter".

However those "Twitter" posts have their own use. Their target is public opinion, especially in Russia. Mentioned the example of the BBC's Persian and Arabic services and how they spread the exact same type of bogus stories to Iranian and Iraqi audiences, respectively demonizing Iraqi and Iranian pilgrims - this is the sort of objective those "Tweets" about Iranian munitions in the hands of the Ukrainian military are meant to serve. Part of NATO's attempts to create rifts between their adversaries consists in trying to influence public opinion in said countries, because public opinion can exert pressure on governments and limit their maneuvering room.



No problem with this. Russian has sold weapons to everybody. Even worse. They had an agreement to turn off the S300 when aerial israeli attacks frequently IRGC personnel in Syria... So if they doesn´t have this kind of moral clash... Iran too.

The zionists have not been frequently attacking IRGC personnel in Syria. No more than twice to be exact, both times Iran and/or allies retaliated.

The rest of their strikes have been aimed at at local Syrian installations and to a lesser extent at Iranian-allied paramilitary forces.

Regarding Russian S-300's, why would they turn them off if they don't intend to down zionist aircraft anyway?

As to whether or not Russian behaviour in this regard has been treacherous vis à vis Iran, you see Iran herself chose to avoid tit-for-tat actions when the zionists launched attacks on Syria, including when pro-Iranian groups were reportedly targeted. And this is while Russia contrary to Iran is facing the additional burden of having diplomatic relations with Tel Aviv, which has thus forced Moscow to perform a delicate balancing act.

To Russia much like Iran, the cost-benefit analysis of escalating against the zionists in the Syrian theater - at least as long as Syria is yet to complete its reconstruction, has not been deemed beneficial so far. Especially since to the zionist regime these attacks essentially serve propaganda purposes, they do not affect the strategic balance of power but Tel Aviv can pretend to be "doing something against Iran" when addressing the zionist public. For Iran as for Russia, it's simply not worth it to escalate for something like that. Situation would be very different if zionist raids actually made a difference on the ground, which they don't.

This is why Russia refraining from shooting at zionist fighter jets over Palestinian airspace cannot really be equated to the notion of Iran arming Ukraine. A proper analogy would be if Russia was supplying arms to the FSA or Al-Nusra Front.

Iran is not selling weapons to Kiev, she has no reason to.
 
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So you agree that Russia not having summoned Iran's envoy

Something like that would happen behind the scenes. Not airing dirty laundry in public to the glee of the West.

However those "Twitter" posts have their own use. Their target is public opinion, especially in Russia.

Twitter isn’t popular in Russia and heavily restricted by both sides at the current moment.

Mentioned the example of the BBC's Persian and Arabic services and how they spread the exact same type of bogus stories to Iranian and Iraqi audiences

Completely different since Iran is filled with liberal loving satellite enjoying populace (tens of millions of satellites on rooftops or now VPN media boxes).

The zionists have not been frequently attacking IRGC personnel in Syria. It occurred no more than twice in all these years, both times Iran and/or allies retaliated.

At least Two attacks have occurred in the last 12 months resulting in 3 IRGC deaths. That’s off the top of my head and what makes it to the headlines. Not like Iran likes telling the world about this nor does Israel. Hence the shadow war component.

So your assertion is grossly incorrect.

Iran is not selling weapons to Kiev, she has no reason to.

Toman is skyrocketing and the most of the governments hard currency is frozen overseas.

Some of you think running a country and paying bills is done via a magical tree that prints infinite money like the US. It doesn’t work like that for Iran. They have to actually generate cash flow.
 
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Something like that would happen behind the scenes. Not airing dirty laundry in public to the glee of the West.

Surely Russia's reaction wouldn't be confined to a diplomatic protest note behind the scenes, nor be followed by prompt resumption of the normal state of affairs.

Something like that would have visible consequences. It would no longer be business a usual between Iran and Russia, nor would we be witnessing continued expansion of bilateral ties in all relevant areas.

Twitter isn’t popular in Russia and heavily restricted by both sides at the current moment.

It's easy to access despite restrictions. And it not being popular doesn't mean NATO will forego using it as a tool to influence whichever portion of the Russian public it can reach. There are also millions of Russians abroad, and many hundreds of millions of people across the world who have favorable views of Russia. They too are among the target audience.

Completely different since Iran is filled with liberal loving satellite enjoying populace (tens of millions of satellites on rooftops or now VPN media boxes).

As above, it's not because Russia is more successful at shielding its population from NATO propaganda that the US regime will capitulate on this front. Propaganda will be churned out either way.

At least Two attacks have occurred in the last 12 months resulting in 3 IRGC deaths. That’s off the top of my head and what makes it to the headlines. Not like Iran likes telling the world about this nor does Israel. Hence the shadow war component.

So your assertion is grossly incorrect.

Substantiate with evidence the claim of Iran covering up IRGC casualties. Otherwise it'll be but a baseless allegation. One which would run counter to documented Iranian practice of publicizing martyrs, holding large funeral processions in the open etc.

The zionists very much like to make noise about supposed attacks on the IRGC - imaginary attacks of course, with only token exceptions. Their media are replete with false insinuations of Iranian losses, using terms such as "Iranian militias" in headlines whilst what they're really referring to are pro-Iranian groups not composed of Iranian nationals, as apparent from the actual content of those papers. As for zionist officials, they're on the record for bragging that they're the only ones supposedly in the business of striking "Iranians".

Toman is skyrocketing and the most of the governments hard currency is frozen overseas.

Some of you think running a country and paying bills is done via a magical tree that prints infinite money like the US. It doesn’t work like that for Iran. They have to actually generate cash flow.

Except that maintaining intact the bilateral relationship with Russia is considerably more profitable to Iran including economically. The 2,76 billion USD invested in Iran by the Russians over the past twelve months, on top of profits from mutual trade is magnitudes more than what some dirt cheap artillery shells and unguided rockets would have earned Iran.

Iran's not cut off from hard currency, some 40 billion USD are reportedly being spent on a yearly basis only to import the raw materials and components needed to keep domestic industries running. My source may have slightly overstated the figure but fact is that hard currency is made available to Iran, between 52 billion USD of non-oil exports the past year plus around 20 billions USD of oil exports (possibly more), tens of billions are bound to be flowing in.

By the way, assuming we're talking about the same Ukraine - the one I know is as good as broke and barely surviving on foreign financial support. Ditto for the weapons supplied to Kiev: they're being taken delivery of on credit. Considering this, and adding the pesky occurrence that Ukraine's future happens to be in the balance ergo its ability to ever repay the mounting debts is questionable, not to mention that Kiev would certainly proceed to reimburse its western patrons before any other party, it's safe to conclude that this is not exactly the sort of go-to customer a country in urgent need of hard currency would be soliciting for any kind of exports now is it?

The suggestion that western regimes paid a third party to buy Iranian munitions and send them over to Ukraine does not necessarily imply that Iran had been informed about the scheme. Even under such a hypothesis, shells could have been transferred to the Ukrainians at once and unbeknownst to Iran.

Last but not least: the Ukrainian regime is practicing strict censorship on war reporting and photography. Those high resolution pictures uploaded to "Twitter" by "OSINT analysts" supportive if not downright linked to NATO, are there because Ukrainian authorities or their patrons gave their green light. Now here's a question, if Iran knowingly and deliberately made munitions available to Ukraine, why would Kiev "thank" Iran by periodically having pictures of said munitions published on "social media"? Iran would certainly not appreciate and probably think twice before re-supplying a business partner incapable of discreetness.

In short, to assume that Iran would be compromising her bourgeoning strategic cooperation with Moscow for the sake of low revenue arms deals with or for Ukraine would be stretching it. The burden of proof would lie with those asserting otherwise and "Twitter" posts alone do not qualify in this regard.
 
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To be clear, Iran is not transferring any weaponry to Ukraine, whether directly or through intermediaries. Iran has no control over former customers and what they do with Iranian munitions.

There's no scheme to arm Ukraine in which Iran would be knowingly and actively participating, simple as that.
Unless you are a decision maker "in the know", theirs no way you can present this as fact.
 
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Unless you are a decision maker "in the know", theirs no way you can present this as fact.

I use common sense and known facts (both contemporary and historical) to infer it, and to characterize contentions to the contrary as far fetched.
 
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You’re a petulant child, grow up for your own sake.

it’s a forum, not a battlefield…
@aryobarzan

I'm sorry brother, I didn't see that my post also included you in the reply!

My comment wasn't directed towards you at all, it was 100% meant for "Pittik". Forgive me if this caused any confusion.
 
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@aryobarzan

I'm sorry brother, I didn't see that my post also included you in the reply!

My comment wasn't directed towards you at all, it was 100% meant for "Pittik". Forgive me if this caused any confusion.
I knew that,,I never thought otherwise..You are my brother and I have nothing but respect for all of you.:-)
 
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