IRIAF | News and Discussions

[drmeson]

I also think @drmeson has a point when he says Iran should look toward Mig-29 variants since we have the experience and are already equipped to maintain and operate these aircraft, as opposed to su-27 family.

yes but does the leadership even want an IRIAF is the question I asked ?

We can waste our days here talking about MIG-29, F-14, SU-35, Kowsar-I, but what if leadership itself does not want the force to survive?

 

[BlessedKingOfLonging]

yes but does the leadership even want an IRIAF is the question I asked ?

We can waste our days here talking about MIG-29, F-14, SU-35, Kowsar-I, but what if leadership itself does not want the force to survive?

My two cents - yes, they do. But the catch is they want an IRIAF that is entirely home-built with no reliance on vendors for spare parts and maintenance. An acceptable compromise to them is foreign aircraft with technology transfer.

Until that can be achieved, it will hobble on sustained only by the ingenuity of the mechanics and engineers.

 

[Daylamite Warrior]

yes but does the leadership even want an IRIAF is the question I asked ?

We can waste our days here talking about MIG-29, F-14, SU-35, Kowsar-I, but what if leadership itself does not want the force to survive?

Ridiculous thing to say. Of course they do but they also dont want money siphoning out on trash, when they can focus on drones, missiles etc for the time being. Surely if they didnt want it to survive they would have disbanded it by now, no?

Dear brother, I disagree with your assessment on the F-14. Prior to it's retirement in the us military, a new variant of the F-14 was launched with the most modern avionics, sensors, an APG-71 radar that could scan and track targets in a 370 km radius (increases to 740 km when 2 F-14Ds fly in conjunction), a system allowing the ground troops to view what the aircraft was seeing and a Joint Tactical Information Distribution System.

Make no mistake - the F-14 was retired solely out of fear of Iran which was stealing spare parts right out of the us military's inventory somehow and they wanted to ground the IRIAF totally. Had that not been the case, they would be flying it even today with even newer and better upgrades. If we can improve on the design to enable it to carry 12 missiles instead of 8 and add engines with a greater thrust to weight ratio (dry thrust - 74kN, afterburner - 125 kN) and with 3D thrust vectoring, we'll have a formidable weapon in our arsenal.

Sorry I don't engage in baseless conspiracy theory. The US did not abandon the f-14 because they were scared of Iran...it's because better technology came along.

 

[BlessedKingOfLonging]

Sorry I don't engage in baseless conspiracy theory. The US did not abandon the f-14 because they were scared of Iran...it's because better technology came along.

But take a look at F-15E and F-15EX. You know, the base F-15 design flew only one year after the Tomcat first flew and the design has been retained to this day and will only keep evolving, probably being in service up to 2040s. Similarly, the F-14 design was viable for a long time to come - it's just that political factors forced it's retirement.

F-14's main bottlenecks at the time was a lack of suitable engine but that was resolved when they fitted it with the General Electric GE-F-110 turbofans. I recall that in the report where they stated the purpose of retirement of the american F-14s, there was a section that spoke primarily about how spare parts kept making their way to Iran from the united states itself and they wanted to take away that channel altogether.

 

[drmeson]

maybe yes maybe no

CNN Exclusive: US intel and satellite images show Saudi Arabia is now building its own ballistic missiles with help of China

US intelligence agencies have assessed that Saudi Arabia is now actively manufacturing its own ballistic missiles with the help of China, CNN has learned, a development that could have significant ripple effects across the Middle East and complicate the Biden administration's efforts to restrain...

edition.cnn.com

Nowhere the article you posted (common knowledge) mentions that KSA is operating/building any other missile than DF-21C that they have long been known to possess via purchase from China. Also nowhere it is mentioned that TEL numbers have increased or even seen being deployed. Its common knowledge for 8-10 years now that KSA has possessed DF-21C with a range of 1700 KM and a CEP of 50-100m which CIA ensured cant carry any CBRN warhead. No single satellite or test firing evidence suggests they even have a TEL for that missile. They possess 12 x TEL of DF-3 that they may have been converted but no evidence exists for that. The same KSA was giving money to Ukraine to make a SRBM for them just recently.

You are going to pit that in a missile exchange against IRGC Aerospace Force? Thats like pitting an MMA champion against a street thug.

as i said how many time they failed and how many time they succeed

Qiam-I/Burkan broke through the shield many times, there are pics and videos of landing warheads ... would it be difficult for KS or Qassem glide vehicles with quasi ballistic or depressed skip glide trajectories to achieve that what Qiam-I has achieved many times? Them deployed with Emad-II TRV/MaRV and a bunch of loitering drones can easily massacre MIM-104 and even THAAD which has a ... few weaknesses (separate topic)

Th four FABs will not stand by the end of the episode. Like I said Iran will take blows too but at the end of the day IADS of Iran will sustain through Ambush HIMADS, SHORADS and track radars while the attack capability will sustain itself through underground infrastructure and mobile TELS. The attack capability of PGCC will be gone as four FABs will be destroyed.

that is an interesting missile , how many day after the attack iran responded ? why you believe this time will be faster.

Terrorist militias are hard to target. In case of ISIS, IRGC waited for the targets to gather at one place. You cant say same about the conventional military of PGCC. Their FABs, military installments, HOH resources, oil fields and terminals are not hiding anywhere, they are there and will stay there during conflict for IRGC to target. The same can't be said about ISIS or PJAK.

their base is gone but also this can be said about Iranian under ground missile bases will be out of question .

PGCC does not have the following to ensure complete destruction of IRGC attack capabilities

1) Not enough accurate BM, CEP of 50-100 with conventional warhead wont hurt IRGC.
2) The attack trajectory is Ballistic, not quasi, not depressed, not glide but conventional ballastic which is not something that S-300 PMU2 or Bavar-373 can't intercept. DF-21C's terminal speed is not high.
2) They never had any proper Missile exercise where use of TEL BM has been seen (they had weird ones with Somalia and Sudan involving helis) while IRGC holds missile exercises like people visit their friends.
3) There is no evidence of them fielding or deploying Missiles forces. Not a single TEL picture or use of missiles on Houthis either.
4) The range of SOWs are short , highest 250 KM with Storm Shadow. To fire SOWs at any useful target inside Iran the 15-25 m2 RCS bearing Tornado or F-15 will have to get very close to the target where IADS can deal with them.

do you believe USA already didn't shared its satellite imagery of these underground bases with ksa , do you think they are not already aware of their entrance .

and what will they use to attack that entrance? You do realise we are talking about a force that has failed to stop Houthis from launching BM from TELs next door in 8 years but somehow you are assuming that the same force (failed to destroy TELs of Houthis) will destroy IRGC's underground bases, mobile TEL, multilaunchers on surface in few minutes?

you think how long it take for ksa to fix its base

If Comm towers, aircraft hangars, fuel depots, armoury is gone then it may take weeks.

, you want fuel , they can send some tanker as stopgap for the refueling capacity of the base ,

According to you few F-15 of KSA will land on a highways somewhere far away from the reach of IRGC missiles/UCAVs with:

-no fuel
-no weapons
-Tired pilots
-no quick mechanical check/fix equipment
-no new mission briefing

And you are saying that magically within few mins or hours all of that can be provided.

HOW?

and the runway can be fixed in 2-3 hours now answer me how many hours it take to clear the entrance of those bases if they get bombed.

According to you KSA

- Can land their jets in dessert on highways
- Magically transport A2A, A2G weapons, Fuel, New pilots, mechanical checkup equipment to them
- Rebuild their control towers, fuel depots, runways
- Can target Iranian bases with some unknown missiles and SOWS that (a) have the CEP of less than 10m to destroy the entrances (b) Have the range and trajectories to get pass Iranian IADs

I think Russia should hire KSA to win them Ukraine and couple of other countries.

no, relying on air defense is not the answer they never will be able to prevent those base from being bombed , its air force that can do that.

here, I am probably the biggest supporter of the survival of IRIAF as a potent interceptor force so your comment should be directed toward those who do not believe in IRIAF's role, people who think purchasing heavy attack aircrafts with large RCS for 85 million USD per unit is the solution.

by our current strategy in case of enemy attack we only can rely on t6he missiles which are on tels outside those bases in case of enemy attack

For attack we can totally rely upon our missile and UCAV arsenal but not for defense. IRIAF should be revived as an interceptor force of atleast 240 light fighters with lowest possible RCS, top-notch radars, ECCM packages, e-warefare suits, longest possible BVR, all aspect WVR missiles. Aircrafts that can TDL with IADs, and need not much maintenance. I am defining a force built on:

F-14AM
MIG-29M/35
Kowsar-I/II
WingmentUCAVs

For attack we have the following:

BM force for Mobile TEL+ Underground Silos
- Ballistic (3000 KM) MaRV
- Quasi Ballistic (1400 KM) MaRV/TRV
- Glide/Skip Glide (1400-1800 KM) MaRV
- AL-Ballistic (150 KM)

CM force
Mobile multitube LA-CM (1450 KM)
Fighter Launched CM (1000 KM)
Submarine launched (future)
UCAV launched CM (200 KM)
Glide PGM (100+ KM)

Loitering UCAV SWARM
2500 KM

did the base destroyed ? did it stop work ?

If it was an Airbase housing fighter jets yes it would have stopped working for quite some time. A disaster in war. 30-40 missiles with submunitions, and thermobaric warheads can ruin an airfield.

communication can be fixed with mobile terminals . logistic can be protected . look at those zolfaqar craters , do you believe they can penetrate underground reinforced craters. how many we used to attack a reinforced structure in iraqi kurdistan

No evidence exists of PGCC using underground infrastructure at their TABs/FABs. All their aircraft are in nonprotected bunkers and use pretty much-fixed infrastructure. Not a single shred of evidence exists for the mobile strategy you are assuming they would suddenly unleash on Iran.

by the way around those bases is desert , they just can disperse the logistic around those bases in desert in small caches

Evidence of them using mobile comm towers and radars?

Here is my claim, even their AD infrastructure is not mobile compared to Ambush SAM strategy of Iran. You are welcome to prove me wrong.

 

[drmeson]

Ridiculous thing to say. Of course they do

Then why cut the budget to 200 million USD per year that has done the following

- Slowed local R&D on larger turbofan
- Local light weight BVR
- Slowed Kowsar-I production
- No sign of Kowsar-II, heavy fighter, AWACS anymore despite previous claims
- No sign of foreign procurement
- Zero upgradation of MIG-29 and SU-24 dying fleet

but they also dont want money siphoning out on trash,

Define trash ?

when they can focus on drones, missiles etc for the time being.

Drones and missiles are attack weapons, IRIAF's major job is defense of Iranian skies with IADS

Surely if they didnt want it to survive they would have disbanded it by now, no?

They actually did years ago and you are just not realizing it.


Fighter fleet

- F-14A/AM = 34 current flyable of which 17 are FMC (full mission capable), barely a dozen are F-14AM that can deliver the Fakour-90 punch or even see enemy at 300+KM. Total airframes of F-14A = 61 which IRIAF does not have the $$ to bring to FMC standard for 3-5 Million USD per unit.

- MIG-29 9.12 = 23 with obsolete radars of MIG-23 ML standard and no e-warfare suite. Barely has an arsenal of 30 years old 150 x SARH BVR R-27R1. Fleet is dying without MLU, upgrades but no sign of anything happening even though we are now "strategic allies" of Russia according to some stupidos here.

- Kowsar-I = 4, Electronically the most advanced aircraft in IRIAF with modern western Radar, e-warfare suite, Nav-Comm, TDL, FBW. But its production rate is barely 6/year because of lack of $$$. No sign of BVR procurement/development despite the capability.

Benign Fleet
- 23 Mirage F1/Q/EQ/BQ with no radars , not even a single missile or even pylon
- 43 F-7N with 30 KM tracking range with non reliable PL-7C WVR missiles
- 60 F-5E/F with 35 KM tracking range with Fatter/AIM-9J
- 6 Saegheh-I/II testbeds with no radar or weapons

this fleet is a $ and resources burden on IRIAF. They are still part of IRIAF because of lobby's behind them i.e. squadrons operating them, public and private contractors that supply parts for them etc.

Attack aircrafts
- 64 F-4E/D of which some ~30 (??) are "Dowran" upgraded with New Radars, ~100+ KM tracking range and 3 different types of ALCM/AShCM
- 30 SU-24 of which 20 or so are FMC?

if budget cuts continue in favor of UCAVs (300 strong fleet now), Navy, Missiles then in few years we may end up with:

10 F-14AM
10-12 MIG-29
15-20 Kowsar-I

Pretty much like how DPRK's current AF is made of ~30 MIG-29S to guard the Island and rest of the prop fleet is made of 50 years old MIG-21, F-7, MIG-23, SU-7 to show on paper that AF exists. We are headed in that direction unless Akhoonds do something about IRIAF. Our Missile program is generation ahead of DPRK with solid fueled accurate systems while our IADS what DPRK cant even dream of but thing is we need this arm as well to support IADS.

 

[SalarHaqq]

Terrorist militias are hard to target. In case of ISIS, IRGC waited for the targets to gather at one place. You cant say same about the conventional military of PGCC. Their FABs, military installments, HOH resources, oil fields and terminals are not hiding anywhere, they are there and will stay there during conflict for IRGC to target. The same can't be said about ISIS or PJAK.

It's not even about the fact that they are hard to target, it's that when it comes to retribution for a terrorist attack there's no pressing time constraint to begin with. The attacking party has all the time it needs to make a political decision as to what the targets will be, what weapons to use, what scope the retaliation will have and so on.

Whereas in a classic war between states, especially given the nature of the respective military doctrines of Iran versus her enemies, the situation is completely different as it calls for rapid reaction on Iran's part.

The IRGC didn't strike back at "I"SIS immediately because it simply didn't need to. No one retaliates to a terrorist attack in a mere matter of minutes.

 

[SalarHaqq]

no sign of anything happening even though we are now "strategic allies" of Russia according to some stupidos here.

There's a significant nuance between strategic alliance and case-specific / ad hoc strategic partnership(s), which is what I referred to and which pretty much applies to Iran-Russia relations. The terminological specifics carry weight.

Also even if there was a full fledged strategic alliance, Iran would still have to request those upgrades from Russia and that's not necessarily a given - and definitely not the case if your hypothesis of a calculated abandonment of the air force is accurate.

 

[drmeson]

There's a significant nuance between strategic alliance and case-specific / ad hoc strategic partnership(s), which is what I referred to and which pretty much applies to Iran-Russia relations. The terminological specifics carry weight.

Also even if there was a full fledged strategic alliance, Iran would still have to request those upgrades from Russia and that's not necessarily a given - and definitely not the case if your hypothesis of a calculated abandonment of the air force is accurate.

I am afraid wordplay means nothing here. Iran-Russia temporary alignment is of no significant importance in terms of following

Russia does not supply Iran with anything significant.

- It declined official requests of Iranian Government to purchase 72 MIG fighters in 90s.
- It resisted S-300 supply for years
- It supported sanctions on Iran

Iranian Leadership does not want an AF anymore

- Its not asking Russia to upgrade or even allow Iran to pull local MLU+Upgrade on obsolete MIG-29 Fleet.
- Its not interested in purchasing any fighter (SU-35 or MIG) from Russia, no official or formal request.
- Its not interested in local production of fighters either (Kowsar-I slow production)
- Its not even interested in purchasing any small amount of modern AF weaponary like light weight BVR missiles or technology like Turbofan TOT

All the while Iran will keep verbally supporting Russian dick-games in east europe, it's illegal claims in Caspian sea. Forgetting what Moscow has been doing to NW Iranic lands for 170 years.

 

[drmeson]

But take a look at F-15E and F-15EX. You know, the base F-15 design flew only one year after the Tomcat first flew and the design has been retained to this day and will only keep evolving, probably being in service up to 2040s. Similarly, the F-14 design was viable for a long time to come - it's just that political factors forced it's retirement.

F-14's main bottlenecks at the time was a lack of suitable engine but that was resolved when they fitted it with the General Electric GE-F-110 turbofans. I recall that in the report where they stated the purpose of retirement of the american F-14s, there was a section that spoke primarily about how spare parts kept making their way to Iran from the united states itself and they wanted to take away that channel altogether.

Not exactly F-14 was a maintenance pig with 50 % more parts than its replacement the F/A-18EF. It offered no smart Air to Surface capability all the while it had a huge RCS (judging from era and built, F-15, F-4, SU-27, Tornado all have 10-25 m2) with no light weight modern BVR integration which is why USN let it die. The AWG-9 and APG-71 offered large search ranges for AWACS role but their track ranges for small fighters were almost being caught by newer smaller radars that later equipped other US fighter. It's successor F/A-18EF has a RCS of 0.75-1.2m2 has superb radar, Air to Air and Air to Surface capability while has much less parts and is easier to maintain.

We iranians have developed this age old fascination with this aircraft because it massacred the Saddams airforce during the war and now we have no other option. It does offer massive advantage in BVR combat with its LR-BVR attack but 4th generation fighters with upgrades are also carrying such LR-BVR weapons now.

BT's claims of local F-14 and its weapons do not matter anymore when leadership is not in mood of having an IRIAF at all.

 

[aryobarzan]

@drmeson ...Why we do not see any product flying with jahesh Turbo fan engine...it is more than two years since we saw its introduction...

 

[drmeson]

@drmeson ...Why we do not see any product flying with jahesh Turbo fan engine...it is more than two years since we saw its introduction...

Actually many people including me always have believed that Jahesh-700 single crytal Turbofan is intended to power the Shahed-171 UCAV and its current Tolue-14 Turbofan is just a stopgap. Tolue-14 role could be Hoveyzeh LACM and AbuMahdi AShCM. Both of them are driven from KH-55 which is powered by R95 turbofan while Tolue-14 has almost twice the thrust so payload in form of warhead and Guidance system with more modern seeker etc can be deployed in future versions.

Quoting Patarames "In this Iranian 2014 graphic the Jahesh-700 acts as a core, "supercharged" by an electric fan in front of it. The electrofan is driven by the engines electric generator This makes it both more efficient and increases thrust"

https://twitter.com/pataramesh/status/1296690726160474112

https://twitter.com/x/status/1418503724796940288

It tells us two things

1) Strategists have big plans for Shahed-171. They want it be powered by larger more efficient Turbofan, be fuel efficient to have a long range. Hinting towards a Stealth, more heavier unmanned bomber, that can intrude enemy airspace silently, deliver SOWs from internal bays or may provide recce, coordinates (Tactical DataLink) etc. If they deploy 2 x Jahesh-700 on a Shahed-171 slightly redesigned frame then a whole new plethora of roles can be assigned to this UCAV including a A2A+A2G wingmen that can deploy IR seeking missiles from its internal bays and launch PGM as well.

2) Mismanagement of funds are the biggest enemies of Iranian military developments. One group came with Tolue-14 and another came with Jahesh-700. Similar parallel projects got funded. Jahesh-700 is probably a generation ahead of Tolue-14 but thrusts are not that different. None can power a fighter.

Lists of parallel projects in Iran

OWJ Saegheh-I/II vs HESA Kowsar-I
Shahed-129/149 vs Kaman-22 vs Fotros
Emad-II vs Ghadr-GRV
Qassem Glide-MaRV vs Kheybar Shikan Glide-MaRV

I guess many more exists ...

 

[SalarHaqq]

I am afraid wordplay means nothing here. Iran-Russia temporary alignment is of no significant importance in terms of following

Strategic partnership is the term in use by social scientists to describe occurrences such as the Iranian-Russian cooperation on Syria, Russian deliveries of radar technology to Iran in view of strengthening Iranian defense capabilities against a hypothetical aggression, or the fact that Russian sales of Kornet ATGM's and Yakhont ASCM's to Syria weren't conditioned upon guarantees that Damascus wouldn't pass on a chunk of these to Hezbollah, which contributed to guarding against zionist expansion into Lebanon.

To speak of strategic partnerships in regards to certain aspects of Iran-Russia relations is therefore neither stupid nor word play, it's simply the technically appropriate terminology regardless of one's views about Russia.

Russia does not supply Iran with anything significant.

- It declined official requests of Iranian Government to purchase 72 MIG fighters in 90s.
- It resisted S-300 supply for years
- It supported sanctions on Iran

Nonetheless the windfall of Russian supplies and technological cooperation shouldn't be dismissed, especially for Iran's domestic R&D and manufacturing.

All the while Iran will keep verbally supporting Russian dick-games in east europe, it's illegal claims in Caspian sea. Forgetting what Moscow has been doing to NW Iranic lands for 170 years.

Iran will even "forgive" (not forget) the USA's crimes if they change their oppressive ways, as announced by the IR Leadership. If they don't, they will keep being resisted against. This is what rational foreign policy looks like.

Concerning Russia's position on the legal status of the Caspian Sea, or Iran's position or any other nation's for that matter, based on which international provision could they possibly be deemed illegal? Because the status of the Caspian is in fact one of the most complex and ambiguous questions of territorial partitioning worldwide, as it largely unfolds in a legal grey zone.

However, Iran unlike other littoral states has not ratified the Convention on the legal status of the Caspian Sea.

 

[Daylamite Warrior]

Then why cut the budget to 200 million USD per year that has done the following

- Slowed local R&D on larger turbofan
- Local light weight BVR
- Slowed Kowsar-I production
- No sign of Kowsar-II, heavy fighter, AWACS anymore despite previous claims
- No sign of foreign procurement
- Zero upgradation of MIG-29 and SU-24 dying fleet

Youre expecting all that on the back of a budget decrease? Are you serious?

Aaanyway, like I have already said, Iran has limited financial resources and their defence is investing most of their money into attack, primarily from drones and missiles. To have an effective airforce to compete with US, Iran just doesnt have that sort of money...so they have had to make some tough choices. Theyre not gonna piss money up the wall just because you and @Hack-Hook have pipe dreams of Kowsar X and SU-57 LOL! Iran will only invest on their airforce if it is worth it, other than that they have to be more calculated than you are sat behind your computer screen.

Define trash ?



Drones and missiles are attack weapons, IRIAF's major job is defense of Iranian skies with IADS

Really? Qaher was trash, Kowsar is trash, everything about IRIAF is trash. It's subpar garbage that will be the first to get annihilated in a war, followed by our Navy. Sorry if that hurt your feelings.

Attack is a form of defence...Iran has a decent SAM network as well.

I know you're a secularist and you want Iran to become a stooge of the west again...but wake the **** up, it aint gonna happen. So the akhoonds are doing the best they can. Even if Iran had money, they would still need to make crazy investments in their airforce for it to even stand more than a few weeks in a war. That is why Iran's detterance has come from other means, with great effect, much to your dismay.

 

[Daylamite Warrior]

I am afraid wordplay means nothing here. Iran-Russia temporary alignment is of no significant importance in terms of following

Russia does not supply Iran with anything significant.

- It declined official requests of Iranian Government to purchase 72 MIG fighters in 90s.
- It resisted S-300 supply for years
- It supported sanctions on Iran

Iranian Leadership does not want an AF anymore

- Its not asking Russia to upgrade or even allow Iran to pull local MLU+Upgrade on obsolete MIG-29 Fleet.
- Its not interested in purchasing any fighter (SU-35 or MIG) from Russia, no official or formal request.
- Its not interested in local production of fighters either (Kowsar-I slow production)
- Its not even interested in purchasing any small amount of modern AF weaponary like light weight BVR missiles or technology like Turbofan TOT

All the while Iran will keep verbally supporting Russian dick-games in east europe, it's illegal claims in Caspian sea. Forgetting what Moscow has been doing to NW Iranic lands for 170 years.

Maybe why Iran doesnt have all those upgrades and planes from Russia is because Russia doesnt want to sell it to us...in which case it is unreasonable to put the blame on the akhoonds. Simple as that.

Unfortunately, up until the Ukraine war, Putin thought he had a chance of worming his way back into western club, by selling S400s to Turkey but shewed reluctance in selling to Iran because of "rEgiOnAl sTaBiLitY". And yes, Russia has been a trecherous "partner"....However, with the recent global pariah status of Russia, perhaps things may change. We're already seeing cooperation which wasnt there before the war.