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you don't get it , the fighter must come out of the mountain , at flying speed , those missiles don't need to do so . also we can fire the missile from inside the base , we don't have such luxury for aircraft , the enemy bomb the door to the base , those aircrafts are as good as Saddam buried aircraft under the ground until several day that you can clear the door and in these time enemy have air dominance and can bomb the crew who are clearing the door to the base

This isn’t the Death Star. Bombing a single point doesn’t put a billion dollar facility out of commission. Each mountain airbase has multiple exit runways. During non operation there would be special metal alloy “nets “ that extend well in front of the doors to rip and pre detonate any cruise missiles or JDAM to shreds. Similar to cage armour around tanks.

Your logic doesn’t make any sense. You’d rather park 50 million dollar planes out in the open were a off the shelf suicide drone can take it. Hell one Jericho III missile with a cluster warhead can pierce Iranian ABM shield and wipe out 500M dollars worth of aircraft in a blink of an eye.

If Iran cannot protect a centrifuge facility/drone warehouse/centrifuge parts workshop from a simple drone attack during peace time. What do you think will happen to all your expensive fighter jets getting a nice tan out in the sun during the fog of war?

But despite all that I just said....you say mountain airbases are useless because of the off chance that a cruise missile or perfectly placed JDAM manages to evade defenses and hit a reinforced steel blast door? That can easily be repaired?

Like I said your logic makes zero sense.

Taiwan has one of the biggest underground airbases in the war. North Korea and China also have underground/mountain airbases. It’s a valid tactic against a superior opponent.
 
as i said that glide feature only work if its engine fail not if it hit by sam .
in case of hitting by sam both airplane will fall , in case of engine failure , the remaining engine made F-5 fly home , the glide feature make Alca fly 10km away and hit the ground there .

by the way I wonder what you are insist on , we unveiled Yasin jet in 2017 and tested it in 2019 and then airforce was not impressed and decided it preferred Kowsar , it was heavier could carry less weapon and was slower


it could only carry 1100km of ammunition , Kowsar could carry twice
it could carry 1600kg of fuel, Kowsar could carry 2800kg
because it was smaller it could only house non-afterburning version of OWJ
max speed was 1000km , in case of Kowsar it was more than 1600km
range was 900km while Kowsar had a range of 1100km
ferry range was 1200km while Kowsar ferry range was 2900km
service ceiling was 11km in case of Kowsar more in line of 15km (without external fuel and weapons)

on plus side it had larger wings , larger flight control surface , all these my seems good to you but not for us as we lack suitable engines for these feature , and it only added to the resistance to air and hindered its maneuverability , that's why we had to scrap twine tail Saeqeh project our Owj engine is underpowered and until our more powerful engine become available we can't use those features . I only hope for an engine developed from Jahesh-700 in class of more powerful version of FJ-44-3 so the fuel economy become better for our light fighter and trainer program
Who exactly told you Yasin was abandoned? It's in development rn. It's meant to be an advanced trainer and later a CAS aircraft, not a fighter
 
This isn’t the Death Star. Bombing a single point doesn’t put a billion dollar facility out of commission. Each mountain airbase has multiple exit runways. During non operation there would be special metal alloy “nets “ that extend well in front of the doors to rip and pre detonate any cruise missiles or JDAM to shreds. Similar to cage armour around tanks.
as metal cage worked for Russians tanks against javelin in Ukraine
the idea of gathering all your air asset in 4-5 under mountain base is absurd and you think how these bombs come toward target , they can come from top , they can come from forward . just look at some video of their test in youtube , they are not free fall bomb which only have one mode of attack.

the only feasible way of protecting your asset against first strike is distributing them in various bases around the country and its the only way for Iran to operate its air force as it gonna be mainly consisted of Kowsar and its variants in future its the only way to overcome the range problem of the fighter
Your logic doesn’t make any sense. You’d rather park 50 million dollar planes out in the open were a off the shelf suicide drone can take it. Hell one Jericho III missile with a cluster warhead can pierce Iranian ABM shield and wipe out 500M dollars worth of aircraft in a blink of an eye.
who said out in the open , I say out in shelters , I rather instead of puting them in 5 place put them in 50 or 60 or even 100 place
If Iran cannot protect a centrifuge facility/drone warehouse/centrifuge parts workshop from a simple drone attack during peace time. What do you think will happen to all your expensive fighter jets getting a nice tan out in the sun during the fog of war?
Protecting in peace time is harder than protecting in war as in war you expect the attack and in peace time you don't expect the attack .
about your question first don't store your equipment in building suitable for workshops , and then as i said disperse them don't put all your egg in one basket

But despite all that I just said....you say mountain airbases are useless because of the off chance that a cruise missile or perfectly placed JDAM manages to evade defenses and hit a reinforced steel blast door? That can easily be repaired?
not steel door around it is enough , the change in the shape of the area , the torsion on the door make that entrance unusable for more than some hours
and go fix that enterance easily if you can

and about your metal fence idea , see how it will work , just a mere BLU-109
or what GBU-27 can do , its a GBU-24 put in the body of a blu-109 penetrating bomb . and its how GBU-24 work
Image-GBU-24_Missile_testmontage-gi_BLU-109_bomb.jpg


Like I said your logic makes zero sense.

Taiwan has one of the biggest underground airbases in the war. North Korea and China also have underground/mountain airbases. It’s a valid tactic against a superior opponent.
end I mentioned another valid tactic that was designed to protect Sweden airforce against USSR attack and now the program being activated to counter Russia hypothetical attack , wonder which tactic is more useful for us . by the way can you tell me when those base were built

Who exactly told you Yasin was abandoned? It's in development rn. It's meant to be an advanced trainer and later a CAS aircraft, not a fighter
if you see any , beside that prototype that were shown 3 years ago please inform us.
IRIAF decided to go with Kowsar as Yasin was underperforming compared to it and we certainly don't have nor money and neither resource to invest in two production line for two airplane that are in same class and have the exact same capabilities.
 
as metal cage worked for Russians tanks against javelin in Ukraine
the idea of gathering all your air asset in 4-5 under mountain base is absurd and you think how these bombs come toward target , they can come from top , they can come from forward . just look at some video of their test in youtube , they are not free fall bomb which only have one mode of attack.

I did not say ALL air assets if you read I said a majority of interceptors. Iran’s most valuable asset during war time. Could care less what happens to F-5s, F-4, and other ancient aircraft.


who said out in the open , I say out in shelters , I rather instead of puting them in 5 place put them in 50 or 60 or even 100 place

First you show video of bunker busters and MOAB then magically think a concrete shelter will save your planes? One MOAB on an airbase and it’s over.

And 100 is not possible. In your fantasy video game thinking logistics and personnel don’t exist. You think this is Sim City and you just build wherever you want without taking into account all the complex outside factors.

Not to mention it is physically impossible for any country on the planet to protect 100 airbases with enough air defenses to stop against low flying threats. So more doesn’t mean better, I don’t know why that is hard for you to understand.

not steel door around it is enough , the change in the shape of the area , the torsion on the door make that entrance unusable for more than some hours
and go fix that enterance easily if you can

and about your metal fence idea , see how it will work , just a mere BLU-109
or what GBU-27 can do , its a GBU-24 put in the body of a blu-109 penetrating bomb . and its how GBU-24 work

You act like the only protection would be the steal net. That is the fail safe.

It will be much easier to have 4-5 mountain airbases surrounded by a combination of TOR-M1, Mobin, a Sayyad family system, Majid, and skyguard AAA or a future Iranian C-RAM equivalent. All of this will be within a long range air defense ring of Bavar-373 or S-300 to keep bombers and B-1/B-2 at bay.

The biggest risk to these bases is B-52, B-2, and B-1 bombers that can carry a heavy enough bunker buster to do significant damage to the “doors”. Outside of a tactical nuke strike, the bases themselves are impervious.

It will not be so easy then for your JDAMs to reach the net. The net is there if all else fails.

Lastly, do not compare Iran’s domestic AD capability to Saddam 2003. Saddam 2003 and even Saddam 1991, could only dream of having the domestic capability of Bavar-373, Mobin, Mersad, Khordad family, Majid, etc etc

So any comparisons to what Saddam did is irrelevant. His was desperation because he didn’t have any way to protect his aircraft.
Iran has many ways.
 
First you show video of bunker busters and MOAB then magically think a concrete shelter will save your planes? One MOAB on an airbase and it’s over.
no it won't save them but it made enemy have to use heavy weapon , they had to come to at most 20km away from the target ,not 100km away , it will be effective against drones and cruise missiles .and so enemy cant do attack from outside our border , it keep the assets safe from collateral damage.
as I said in war with enemy I worry most about first strike . you must keep majority of your airforce accessible after it . not like what Israel did to arab armies or what saddam did to himself. if you use limited amount of bases no matter how fortified they are enemy can attack entrance to those bases and made your airforce grounded for days even weeks if they repeat the attack
It will be much easier to have 4-5 mountain airbases surrounded by a combination of TOR-M1, Mobin, a Sayyad family system, Majid, and skyguard AAA or a future Iranian C-RAM equivalent. All of this will be within a long range air defense ring of Bavar-373 or S-300 to keep bombers and B-1/B-2 at bay.
your bases are mountain bases , enemy can fly low and hide from you and I doubt S-300 can keep b2 at bay and non of the systems you mentioned will be at their peak performance in mountainous areas .
The biggest risk to these bases is B-52, B-2, and B-1 bombers that can carry a heavy enough bunker buster to do significant damage to the “doors”. Outside of a tactical nuke strike, the bases themselves are impervious.
as i said enemy don't need to destroy the base , the entrance is enough and f-15 can carry several GBU-27 which will be more than enough to deal with the entrance of such bases.
Not to mention it is physically impossible for any country on the planet to protect 100 airbases with enough air defenses to stop against low flying threats. So more doesn’t mean better, I don’t know why that is hard for you to understand.
the protection will be provided with national air defense grid and some local short air defense for point defense , you can even use some CIWS for point air defense and let your integrated long and middle range sams do the defense against airplanes.
You act like the only protection would be the steal net. That is the fail safe.
It will not be so easy then for your JDAMs to reach the net. The net is there if all else fails.
and it fail as it cant provide any protection at all

Lastly, do not compare Iran’s domestic AD capability to Saddam 2003. Saddam 2003 and even Saddam 1991, could only dream of having the domestic capability of Bavar-373, Mobin, Mersad, Khordad family, Majid, etc etc
and the attack capabilities of our enemy is a lot different from then . do you believe they stayed in 1991?
Iran has many ways.
so you say because Iran have many way to protect the aircraft , we must gather all of them in one place ?
no we must not make such mistake. and by the way not all the bases need to have full complement of crew so you don't need to worry about the lack of crews
BAS-90 that i mentioned was introduced by Sweden to made them be able to stand against attack by a country with stronger airforce , more airplanes and higher technological ability , they faced the same challenges as us as they were also were relied on conscripts .
read it and tell me which part of the strategy is not suitable for us

even if you don't like it because it come from west. any strategy we apply must be based on defensive force dispersal to protect our forces against enemy
 
as metal cage worked for Russians tanks against javelin in Ukraine
the idea of gathering all your air asset in 4-5 under mountain base is absurd and you think how these bombs come toward target , they can come from top , they can come from forward . just look at some video of their test in youtube , they are not free fall bomb which only have one mode of attack.

the only feasible way of protecting your asset against first strike is distributing them in various bases around the country and its the only way for Iran to operate its air force as it gonna be mainly consisted of Kowsar and its variants in future its the only way to overcome the range problem of the fighter

who said out in the open , I say out in shelters , I rather instead of puting them in 5 place put them in 50 or 60 or even 100 place

Protecting in peace time is harder than protecting in war as in war you expect the attack and in peace time you don't expect the attack .
about your question first don't store your equipment in building suitable for workshops , and then as i said disperse them don't put all your egg in one basket


not steel door around it is enough , the change in the shape of the area , the torsion on the door make that entrance unusable for more than some hours
and go fix that enterance easily if you can

and about your metal fence idea , see how it will work , just a mere BLU-109
or what GBU-27 can do , its a GBU-24 put in the body of a blu-109 penetrating bomb . and its how GBU-24 work
Image-GBU-24_Missile_testmontage-gi_BLU-109_bomb.jpg



end I mentioned another valid tactic that was designed to protect Sweden airforce against USSR attack and now the program being activated to counter Russia hypothetical attack , wonder which tactic is more useful for us . by the way can you tell me when those base were built


if you see any , beside that prototype that were shown 3 years ago please inform us.
IRIAF decided to go with Kowsar as Yasin was underperforming compared to it and we certainly don't have nor money and neither resource to invest in two production line for two airplane that are in same class and have the exact same capabilities.
Explain how dispersal of assets is supposed to protect a first strike of approx. 600 low RCS cruise missiles launched from Ticonderoga-class ships, B-52s, B-1B's and B-2 bombers in the first wave. Followed by dozens of F-16s armed fully with JASSM missiles, likely totalling over 1000+ missiles in less than 24 hours.

You don't think they won't be able to find them parked in shelters on the ground?
 
Explain how dispersal of assets is supposed to protect a first strike of approx. 600 low RCS cruise missiles launched from Ticonderoga-class ships, B-52s, B-1B's and B-2 bombers in the first wave. Followed by dozens of F-16s armed fully with JASSM missiles, likely totalling over 1000+ missiles in less than 24 hours.

You don't think they won't be able to find them parked in shelters on the ground?
simply a cruise missile is not a penetrating weapon and is not that strong against properly sheltered aircraft and it prevent collateral damage and if enemy want to use bunkerbuster bombs they had to go as near as 20-25km away from those bases . now enemy have assets that can do that but they are limited they can go near 40-5 base but they cant do that to 50-60 bases
and I said you disperse equipment did not remember saying showcasing them in open for everyone
 
as metal cage worked for Russians tanks against javelin in Ukraine
the idea of gathering all your air asset in 4-5 under mountain base is absurd and you think how these bombs come toward target , they can come from top , they can come from forward . just look at some video of their test in youtube , they are not free fall bomb which only have one mode of attack.

the only feasible way of protecting your asset against first strike is distributing them in various bases around the country and its the only way for Iran to operate its air force as it gonna be mainly consisted of Kowsar and its variants in future its the only way to overcome the range problem of the fighter

who said out in the open , I say out in shelters , I rather instead of puting them in 5 place put them in 50 or 60 or even 100 place

Protecting in peace time is harder than protecting in war as in war you expect the attack and in peace time you don't expect the attack .
about your question first don't store your equipment in building suitable for workshops , and then as i said disperse them don't put all your egg in one basket


not steel door around it is enough , the change in the shape of the area , the torsion on the door make that entrance unusable for more than some hours
and go fix that enterance easily if you can

and about your metal fence idea , see how it will work , just a mere BLU-109
or what GBU-27 can do , its a GBU-24 put in the body of a blu-109 penetrating bomb . and its how GBU-24 work
Image-GBU-24_Missile_testmontage-gi_BLU-109_bomb.jpg



end I mentioned another valid tactic that was designed to protect Sweden airforce against USSR attack and now the program being activated to counter Russia hypothetical attack , wonder which tactic is more useful for us . by the way can you tell me when those base were built


if you see any , beside that prototype that were shown 3 years ago please inform us.
IRIAF decided to go with Kowsar as Yasin was underperforming compared to it and we certainly don't have nor money and neither resource to invest in two production line for two airplane that are in same class and have the exact same capabilities.
We saw the second prototype literally a few months ago
 
We saw the second prototype literally a few months ago
we saw production line of kowsar ,yasin in correct form is waste of resource and in all metric is inferior to Kowsar. and how you are not sure its the same prototype but modified.

by the way the number on Qaher is 8 , do you suggest we have 8 Qaher prototype ?
 
we saw production line of kowsar ,yasin in correct form is waste of resource and in all metric is inferior to Kowsar. and how you are not sure its the same prototype but modified.

by the way the number on Qaher is 8 , do you suggest we have 8 Qaher prototype ?

well , it is not wast of time and effort , Kowsar was an upgrade for F5 , Yassin was a real act to try and design and build an aircraft from zero ...

Maybe Yassin has some unique value for training ... maybe cost , maybe configuration ... or maybe they just wanted low cost sub-sonic reliable aircraft for first phase of training new pilot ...

For sure Yassin has zero combat capability compare to Kowsar ( which is almost useless as well )

Yassin design is like this one

although if you compare these 2 pics , you can see so many diffrence in details which mean Yassin is completely Iranian engineered product



AIDC_AT_3
 
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well , it is not wast of time and effort , Kowsar was an upgrade for F5 , Yassin was a real act to try and design and build an aircraft from zero ...

Maybe Yassin has some unique value for training ... maybe cost , maybe configuration ... or maybe they just wanted low cost sub-sonic reliable aircraft for first phase of training new pilot ...

For sure Yassin has zero combat capability compare to Kowsar ( which is almost useless as well )

Yassin design is like this one

although if you compare these 2 pics , you can see so many diffrence in details which mean Yassin is completely Iranian engineered product



AIDC_AT_3
Yasin only made one sense ,to be enlarged and redesigned into something like Su-25 and for that they need to add a lot of armor to it and here we come back to our chronic engine problem
 
Yasin only made one sense ,to be enlarged and redesigned into something like Su-25 and for that they need to add a lot of armor to it and here we come back to our chronic engine problem
see it as low cost stable training aircraft .... it design is stable in core and from the look it doesn't need flight correction by computer ... and if it is low cost , then we can increase our pilot training duration ...

one of our biggest problem is the lack of flight duration by our pilots ... that mean our pilot are becoming bunch of amateur compare to our neighbors ...

The truth is that due the lack of equipment and money , we didn't train any pilot in past 20 years and they are not reliable in high intensity , high stressful combat situation and they can't perform some operation like Kaman 99 or Attack to H3 base anymore ...

you only look at equipment and you simply ignore the people who should operate the equipment ...
 
see it as low cost stable training aircraft .... it design is stable in core and from the look it doesn't need flight correction by computer ... and if it is low cost , then we can increase our pilot training duration ...
we have f5 and an army of its derivatives for that role what need we have for yasin ?
one of our biggest problem is the lack of flight duration by our pilots ... that mean our pilot are becoming bunch of amateur compare to our neighbors ...
if they are going to fly kowsar in future then better train them with two sit version of that aircraft
The truth is that due the lack of equipment and money , we didn't train any pilot in past 20 years and they are not reliable in high intensity , high stressful combat situation and they can't perform some operation like Kaman 99 or Attack to H3 base anymore ...
don't answer whats the need for another trainer , we can use Kowsar and F-5 for training instead of building a production line and 20 yasin we can spend that money to produce 30 more kowsar.
you only look at equipment and you simply ignore the people who should operate the equipment ...
as I said the people can train in two sit version of kowsar and by doing that they become a lot more familiar with the airplan that they will fly in future than when they train with Yasin . its waste of resource .
 
we have f5 and an army of its derivatives for that role what need we have for yasin ?

if they are going to fly kowsar in future then better train them with two sit version of that aircraft

don't answer whats the need for another trainer , we can use Kowsar and F-5 for training instead of building a production line and 20 yasin we can spend that money to produce 30 more kowsar.

as I said the people can train in two sit version of kowsar and by doing that they become a lot more familiar with the airplan that they will fly in future than when they train with Yasin . its waste of resource .

This is my experience from following Iran military news in daily manner and in past 15 years :

We simply can't make F5 or improve it design in 1400s ( maybe we could do this in 1370s but not now ) .... when you have corrupted political system with super corrupted management , your ability to produce anything meaningful is reduced ...

if we could improve and produce F5 in past 20 years , we simply would do it and use them in past 20 years , retire old F5s , Mig 21 ( F7 ) , Mirage F1 , Mig 23/27 , Su-20 and reduce our cost ...
Also Other sellers like China and Russia would agree to sell us fighter jets like J-10 or Su-30 in fear we build fighter jet in this class by ourselves ...


I don't want to humiliate ourselves in this forum but our Kowsar fighters are nothing but repaired and repainted old F5 with some electronic spare parts from china ... for me , Kowsar program is not even qualified to be called an minor upgrade for our old F5s ...

if we could produce anything meaningful , we simply would do and operate them , like what we are doing in ADS systems ...

The lake of progress in this field can have multiple reasons :
  • maybe we don't have enough budget for it .
  • maybe we couldn't build suitable engine ( although I'm sure we could purchase RD93 from Russia if we really wanted )
  • We don't have any functioning Electronic Industry and we can't even produce any minor electronic spare parts like solid capacity old 30 years old IC ( so we can't build CPU or any specialized chips )
  • Our Industry is draining thanks to high rate of immigration from Iran ...
  • maybe IRGC Generals who are controlling every aspect of our military Industry and Ministry of Defense and Ministry of Industry , don't want to allow Artesh have good air force ( if you know the factionalism in Iran , then you wouldn't surprise )
 
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