What's new

IRIAF | News and Discussions

may be you are correct and AL-31 was indeed built by the Aliens!...how can a human beings with primitive computers even think to build an AL-31..in the 1980's ..it must have been something that came out of Area 51.

I know Iranian engineers mastered the nuclear cycle and I suggest you read how difficult an enterprise that was..they also managed to build Missiles that entered a room 700 kilometer away..,,My friend never be afraid of the complexity of a job.....Tehrani Moghadam once told his team..."if they can build it so can we and we have the advantage of knowing that it can be done ..they did not know that".

My last words..."HOW DO YOU EAT AN ELEPHANT!....ONE SPOON AT A TIME"...

useless motivational quotes doesn’t change reality on the ground.

The two countries that built first jet engines were built on backs of Nazi engineers. The Nazi War Machine that had a Military budget of $80B+ in 21st century dollars easily dwarfing Iran’s military budget by a factor of 4.

US and Soviet Union spent more per year on cutting edge research and development than Iran spent during the entire Islamic Republic’s existence!

Even if Iran had the blue print to AL-31 it could not mass produce it! Iran doesn’t have the industry and supply chain in place for such an endeavor. Nor does the blue print tell you the timing firing mechanism of the engine blades (software coding) nor how to produce each blade and at what dimensions.

Iran needs massive investment in this field to reap such rewards. If Iran can unveil an RD-33 or AL-21 engine in next decade WITHOUT TOT it would be groundbreaking for Iran.

There is a reason why almost every engine in existence today has either US or Russian parts in some % or is a derivative of an established US/Russian/Soviet engine.

A jet engine needs to last hundreds of hours before overhaul and carries a live human on board each time. A missile engine needs to last a one way trip and failure means loss of a missile.

Which is more complex?
 
.
There is ONE way to manufacture a turbofan. To make it yourself. No meaningful TOT has ever happened there. Russia turned down China with a clear NO.

You can use cheat sheets like stealing blue prints or reverse engineering it. Yet, it is still a difficult task.

There are a few technologies that are so sensitive that no meaningful TOT has even happened.

These people have made single crystal technology which is impressive. They are ahead of India Turkey.

Give them some time. Nagging will not make it happen. If you are unhappy with the R&D budget, donate half of your income instead of nagging.

There are rumors about RD33 and semi heavy turbofans. Patience.

The question is:
Is Iran behind or inefficient? I believe considering how backward we were, we are doing OK.
India has spent more money and time and is not ahead.
 
Last edited:
.
I agree with all your points about "Iran should not spend much effort on F5 any more and should move on"....My question is .....what is it that makes you think Iran is stuck on F5 and not moving past it....is it the limited production of Kowsar that gives you the idea....Why not do a limited production of Kowsar ..it is developed so why not produce a few...it can be used for what it is (trainer or CAS or ...) . No one claimed it is the end of the line.....Your points on developing aviation infrastructure is well justified but how do U know they are not doing it as we speak....

Iran has an active heavy fighter project that's at it's design phase and among others Iran has reverse engineered F-4's as well. So to say that Iran is stuck on the F-5's is incorrect. There is a major difference between fixating on something than being stuck.
And the F-5 is a good trainer that can potentially be armed for various types of missions and under normal circumstances & if it wasn't deluding some in Iran into thinking that it could be upgraded to a point that it would be good enough, I wouldn't have a problem with it but unfortunately that is not the case.

Point is if Iran had chosen the F-4 & J-79's to fixate on, improve & conduct design changes on we wouldn't be having this discussion & the state of Iran's fighter program would have been far beyond what it is today.
 
. .
i dont think Turkey is behind of iran if we consider jet engine tech, check turkish engine section. before make a comment
" These people have made single crystal technology which is impressive. They are ahead of India Turkey. "

He was referring to single-crystal blade development. Even so, they progressed a lot, just look at their new rq drone engine.
 
.
These people have made single crystal technology which is impressive. They are ahead of India .
Much respect to the Iranian scientists who are working on such a complex program (sanctions add even more complexities)
Having said that, the claim is not correct.
India has developed a working modern Turbofan engine domestically, tested it extensively and has come up short as far as meeting real world requirements are concerned.
India manufactures the RD-33 Series 3, the AL-31FP and Adour variants in house from raw materials, SCBs included.
 
.
" These people have made single crystal technology which is impressive. They are ahead of India Turkey. "

He was referring to single-crystal blade development. Even so, they progressed a lot, just look at their new rq drone engine.

He is a Turkish troll.

Turkey couldn’t even develop a helicopter engine for its attack helicopter but will now develop its own jet engine? Laughable.

Is that why Russia is offering to supply engines, sub systems, control systems, etc for TF-X project?

You have a better chance to see a Turkish man Grow wings then a 100% Turkish engine. Its not because Turks cannot build such a endeavor, it’s more because their access to raw materials and tech from around the world (both East to west) has spoiled them and ruined their economies of scale incentive.

If iran had access to same resources it would likely do the same thing. I mean look at Iranian oil industry, its tech is still decade+ behind leading Russian and US oil drillers. Before people say sanctions, they need to know post revolution Iran had the ability to deepen ties with both East and West, but rejected the notion. I mean Halliburton (dick Cheney’s oil company) had an office in Tehran during the 90’s. Something unfamothable today.
 
.
Burak Bekdil is an excellent Turkish military analyst with access to some secrets. TJ300 is equal of Tolou 1 mini jet. It is unveiled 15 years later.


Turkey’s ‘chronic engine problem’ is harming defense projects, warn officials
By: Burak Ege Bekdil

ANKARA, Turkey — Turkey’s inability to produce a fully indigenous engine is harming some of the country’s otherwise successful domestic defense programs, according to industry and government officials.
“We had it 15 years ago, we had it 10 years ago and we are still having it,” said a former defense industry chief. “It’s our chronic engine problem.”
A government procurement official agreed, telling Defense News that “at best the problem causes major delays, and at worst it can be an existential threat [to programs].”
The Altay, a multibillion-dollar program for the production of Turkey’s first indigenous tank, has long been delayed due to difficulties surrounding the engine and transmission used to power the new-generation tank.
BMC, a Turkish-Qatari joint venture that in 2018 won the serial production contract for the Altay, said in October 2020 that the tank would be fielded within 24 months. The original target was to have the Altay in the field this year 2020. Today, procurement officials and industry sources say even 2022 is an optimistic deadline.
Western countries with power pack technology, particularly Germany, have been reluctant to share technology or sell to Turkey for political reasons.
“Lack of a feasible power pack [engine and transmission] is depriving the program of any sensible progress,” noted an industry source.
Turkey also needs an engine for the new-generation TF-X fighter jet as well as indigenous helicopter models in the making.
At the center of these engine efforts is Tusas Engine Industries, a state-controlled engine maker.
TEI announced June 19 that it successfully tested its locally made TJ300 miniature turbojet engine, which the company produced for medium-range anti-ship missiles. The engine features a thrust rating of 1.3 kilonewtons.
Company officials say the TJ300 engine’s more advanced, future versions could power larger anti-ship cruise missiles and land-attack cruise missiles. Turkey hopes to power its anti-ship and land-attack cruise missiles with locally developed engines.
“The effort is about ending dependency on imported designs,” a TEI official said. Turkey currently imports miniature air-breathing engines from Microturbo — a unit of French company Safran — to power its domestically developed cruise missiles.
Separately, Turkey’s Kale Group is developing a larger, albeit miniature turbojet engine called the KTJ-3200. It has a 3.2-kilonewton thrust rating, and will power the Atmaca and SOM missile systems. On a much bigger scale, Kale Group has ambitions to develop an engine to power the TF-X.
In 2017, Kale Group and British company Rolls-Royce launched a joint venture to develop aircraft engines for Turkey, initially targeting the TF-X. But the £100 million (U.S. $124 million) deal was effectively put on hold due to uncertainties over technology transfer. In December, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavusoğlu said the government is keen to revive talks with Rolls-Royce.
When asked for an update on negotiations, a Rolls-Royce spokesperson told Defense News: “We submitted an engine co-development proposal to Turkey, but the customer has not elected to pursue this to date.”
A year before the Kale Group-Rolls-Royce partnership, Turkish Aerospace Industries — a sister company of TEI — signed a $125 million heads of agreement with U.K.-based firm BAE Systems to collaborate on the first development phase of the TF-X. Turkey originally planned to fly the TF-X in 2023, but aerospace officials are now eyeing 2025 at the earliest.
TEI is also developing the TS1400, a turboshaft engine it intends to power the T625 Gökbey, a utility and transport helicopter developed and built by TAI. The Gökbey currently flies with the CTS-800A turboshaft engine supplied by Light Helicopter Turbine Engine Company, a joint venture between American firm Honeywell and Rolls-Royce.
The Gökbey made its maiden flight in September. TEI says it successfully tested the “core” of its TS1400 turboshaft engine and plans to deliver the prototype to TAI in late 2020.
But analysts remain cautious. “These efforts may eventually fail to materialize without meaningful foreign know-how,” said a London-based Turkey specialist. “Or they may come at costs not viable for mass production.”
 
.
Much respect to the Iranian scientists who are working on such a complex program (sanctions add even more complexities)
Having said that, the claim is not correct.
India has developed a working modern Turbofan engine domestically, tested it extensively and has come up short as far as meeting real world requirements are concerned.
India manufactures the RD-33 Series 3, the AL-31FP and Adour variants in house from raw materials, SCBs included.

My respect to your space scientists.
The engines you mentioned are being assembled and the sensitive components and alloys are manufactured in Russia.

Kaveri also did reach its goal of 81kN with the afterburner but at twice the engine weight and as you mentioned with lower efficiency. It is an achievement.

This is one of my motivational images. Thanks to your great scientists. I look at this picture a lot.

hqdefault.jpg
 
.
کارخانه هواپیماسازی شهباز


کارخانه هواپیماسازی شهباز به دستور رضاشاه در دوشان تپه تأسیس و سه نوع هواپیما در آن ساخته شد


دوشان تپه، کارخانه شهباز


د هاویلند تایگرمث


هاوکر آداگز


هاوکر هایند

افتتاح کارخانه
ایران با شروع دهه ۱۳۱۰ به منظور گسترش قوایی هوایی خود شروع به خرید هواپیماهای جنگی کرد. رضاشاه برای کاستن هزینه‌های خرید فرمان تأسیس این کارخانه را داد و مرداد ۱۳۱۲ مهندسی سوئدی بنام N.H Larsson مامور برنامه‌ریزی و ساماندهی این کارخانه شد. لوازم مورد احتیاج از کشورهای مانند فرانسه و بریتانیا و شرکت پرت اند ویتنی سفارش‌ داده شد و آبان ۱۳۱۴ ده‌ها کارگر و تکنسین کار خود را آغاز کردند.
شهباز به‌طور رسمی ۲۱ شهریور ۱۳۱۵ افتتاح شد و ۲ بریتانیایی، یک ایتالیایی و ۴۱ ایرانی مشغول کار در این کارخانه شدند. همچنین کاپیتان Walker به همراه Frank Knight به عنوان جایگزین N.H Larsson برای مدیریت کارخانه انتخاب شدند۲][]

اولین هواپیماهای کارخانه

نخستین هواپیماهای ساخته شده در کارخانه شهباز، پنج بمب افکن

دهاویلند تایگرمث

بود که در مهر ۱۳۱۶ تکمیل و زمستان همان سال توسط

خلبان افخمی

تست پرواز شدند. همچنین در بهار ۱۳۱۷ پنج فروند

هاوکر آداگز

آماده شد و تحویل

نیروی هوایی شاهنشاهی ایران

شد. رضاشاه ۳۱ خرداد ۱۳۱۷ از کارخانه بازرسی کرد و به او گفته شد تا زمستان امسال پنج فروند

دهاویلند تایگرمث

و پنج فروند

هاوکر آداگز

دیگر آماده می‌شود.

سال ۱۳۱۷ کارخانه گسترش یافت و اسفند ماه پنج فروند تایگرمث و بهار ۱۳۱۸ پنج فروند هاوکر آداگز آماده تست پرواز شد. خرداد ۱۳۱۸ قطعات بیست فروند تایگرمثبریتانیای توسط راه‌آهن وارد تهران شد تا در کارخانه هواپیماسازی شهباز مونتاژ شود. تولید بدنه هواپیما در بهمن ۱۳۱۸ آغاز شد و طرح‌هایی در دست اقدام بود برای تولید هواپیماهای جنگی
بسته شدن کارخانه

با شروع جنگ جهانی دوم و اشغال ایران توسط بریتانیا و شوروی، کنترل کارخانه شهباز و هواپیماهای نیروی هوایی شاهنشاهی به دست بریتانیا افتاد. پرسنل کارخانه از کار اخراج و ساخت هواپیما متوقف شد. همچنین واحد ۱۳۸ تعمیرات و نگهداری بریتانیا در طول زمان اشغال ایران، از امکانات کارخانه برای پشتیبانی نیروی هوایی بریتانیا استفاده کرد.
ده فروند هواپیمای کورتیس H-75A-9 آمریکایی که برای مونتاژ در این کارخانه تحویل ایران شده بود، در حالی که هنوز قطعات آن‌ها در جعبه بود توسط بریتانیا غارت و به هندوستان برده شد. این هواپیماها در هندوستان بنام Mohawk IV نامگذاری شد.

 
.
He is a Turkish troll.

Turkey couldn’t even develop a helicopter engine for its attack helicopter but will now develop its own jet engine? Laughable.

Is that why Russia is offering to supply engines, sub systems, control systems, etc for TF-X project?

You have a better chance to see a Turkish man Grow wings then a 100% Turkish engine. Its not because Turks cannot build such a endeavor, it’s more because their access to raw materials and tech from around the world (both East to west) has spoiled them and ruined their economies of scale incentive.

If iran had access to same resources it would likely do the same thing. I mean look at Iranian oil industry, its tech is still decade+ behind leading Russian and US oil drillers. Before people say sanctions, they need to know post revolution Iran had the ability to deepen ties with both East and West, but rejected the notion. I mean Halliburton (dick Cheney’s oil company) had an office in Tehran during the 90’s. Something unfamothable today.
i just replayed very politely and you called me troll LOL! whatever you believe or not, Russia offers something who cares them in turkey? they basically want to control Turkish projects thats it. TEI delivered 1400SHP turboshaft engine to TAI recently, unlike iranian ones it is genuine design.

Burak Bekdil is an excellent Turkish military analyst with access to some secrets. TJ300 is equal of Tolou 1 mini jet. It is unveiled 15 years later.
ha ha ha, that is because of same trust tj300 has?15 years, we needed it right now and we made it, why we cares when iran copied a similar engine, tolou is french engine illegally manufactured in iran, and tj 300 has
much better t/w ratio.
 
.
i just replayed very politely and you called me troll LOL! whatever you believe or not, Russia offers something who cares them in turkey? they basically want to control Turkish projects thats it. TEI delivered 1400SHP turboshaft engine to TAI recently, unlike iranian ones it is genuine design.


ha ha ha, that is because of same trust tj300 has?15 years, we needed it right now and we made it, why we cares when iran copied a similar engine, tolou is french engine illegally manufactured in iran, and tj 300 has
much better t/w ratio.

Turkey has a robust defense industry and in various aspects they are well ahead of Iran however if they were ahead of Iran in jet propulsion they wouldn't need to import engines or even components of an engine for the 1000km Gazgin cruise missiles yet to be produced. And it's as simple as that!

And the Idea that you needed it now so you produced it now is absurd, as if you didn't need cruise missiles yesterday. LOL!

And the fact that your comparing well over a decade old Iranian tech that's not even close to where Iran is at today with an engine that Turkey just tested for the 1st time less than a year ago speaks for it's self.


Iranian jet propulsion technology today:
Iran unveiled 4th generation light Turbofan engine رونمایی از موتور توربوفن سبک جهش ۷۰۰ در ایران - YouTube

vs

Turkish Jet propulsion tech today:
TEI TJ300 turbojet engine test - YouTube


I think that speaks for it's self


And here is video evidence of the Toloue being produced in Iran over a decade before Turkey even tested that engine for the 1st time
Iran Aerospace research and industries( part 2-2) Iran Jet engine industries - YouTube

And the 34kg TJ-300 has what 315lbf? vs 55.9kg Toloue at 775lbf
 
.
In the 1990s the Turks were saying that they produce the F-16.
In the early 2000s they were saying they make Attack helicopters.
In the mid 2000s they were saing that they make the Milgem warship.
Now they say that are making UAVs.

But the Turks coudn´t make anythig when the west got in their way.

They couldn´t make the Milgem when the Europeans stopped supplying all the vital parts. They couldn´t make the Altay tank when the Germans stopped selling them parts. They couldn´t make the Attack heicopter when the Italians stopped selling them parts. They couldn´t make UAVs when the Canadians stopped selling them parts.

Are we to believe that now they really can make a jet engine?!
 
.
i just replayed very politely and you called me troll LOL! whatever you believe or not, Russia offers something who cares them in turkey? they basically want to control Turkish projects thats it. TEI delivered 1400SHP turboshaft engine to TAI recently, unlike iranian ones it is genuine design.


ha ha ha, that is because of same trust tj300 has?15 years, we needed it right now and we made it, why we cares when iran copied a similar engine, tolou is french engine illegally manufactured in iran, and tj 300 has
much better t/w ratio.

“These efforts may eventually fail to materialize without meaningful foreign know-how,” said a London-based Turkey specialist. “Or they may come at costs not viable for mass production.”


Let me know when the engine actually gets mass produced. If it ever does...without foreign help it won’t.

Meanwhile you had to contract out to BAE systems to help you do the first stage design of TF-X project. But I am sure that is because Turkish engineers are so powerful and smart that such work is beneath them.
 
.
In the 1990s the Turks were saying that they produce the F-16.
In the early 2000s they were saying they make Attack helicopters.
In the mid 2000s they were saing that they make the Milgem warship.
Now they say that are making UAVs.

But the Turks coudn´t make anythig when the west got in their way.

They couldn´t make the Milgem when the Europeans stopped supplying all the vital parts. They couldn´t make the Altay tank when the Germans stopped selling them parts. They couldn´t make the Attack heicopter when the Italians stopped selling them parts. They couldn´t make UAVs when the Canadians stopped selling them parts.

Are we to believe that now they really can make a jet engine?!

The engine he is referring to tops out at 315 lbf and is practically a toy compared to the Toloue.... And it's an engine that was tested for the 1st time in 2020
So I wouldn't doubt their ability to produce that....
 
.

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom