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With 3200kg the payload of the F-5 is ok.
A Su-25 can haul more but the point is:

The F-5 was the last US "3rd World" fighter. Something that was designed to be cheap, cheap to operate and cheap to handle. Providing nations that could otherwise go into Soviet sphere of influence with a cost effective weapon was still a US goal in the 60's. After that and after the situation got stabile, weapons became just Business.
The F-16 already got a engine so complex and expensive that it went far from the idea of a efficient weapon, it was designed for US needs.

Soviets never had a "3rd world" export fighter but building fighters was not commercial business for them. They always sought a cost effective weapon instead, communist ideology.

So yes, the Su-25 might be comparable in overall costs to the F-5 and haul a ton more payload, but the IRIAF likes the F-5 for it's cost effectiveness. Alone the fleet size, infrastructure and experience make it a more favorable platform for the task.

Russia won't sell Iran Su-25 for $11 million, but we can build a Kowsar for 16 million with SAR-GMTI radar, modern navigation system, SVP-24 equivalent and advanced targeting pod, which the 11 million internal price Su-25 of 80's vintage don't has. All that makes up 7,5 million, means the airframe itself with engines costs just 8,5 millions, take 3-4 million away for the two engines and you build a supersonic rated non-composite material fighter airframe for 5$ million and that is for limited numbers.
You won't get a Su-25 with equal avionics from Russia for 20 million (5m export profit and 10m built cost).

You can get a single engine L-159 for $10 million with similar avionics.
You can get a twin engine YAK-130 for $15 million.
But neither are supersonic and none carries more than the F-5.
F-5 can carry 3200kg but Kosar according to what available online carry less . a lot less , around half that amount.
F-5 fly up to 16.5km , Kosar fly up to 15km , F5 fly as fast as 1.6mach kosar fly at 1.2mach .

all these point to two things , first for some reason structure of Kosar is much heavier than F-5 or Owj engine is considerably weaker than J85 engine.
 
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Jet engine is something that restrict us .... if our turbofan jet engine program show its fruit and we become able to atleast make reliable cost-effective and optimized turbo fan engine with at least 24-30 Killo Newton dry thrust power , then we simply can design and build something like these ( light fighter jet ) :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC/PAC_JF-17_Thunder


with J-85 like engine , we can't build anything better and more advance ( and useful ) than F-5

but we should find a way to keep our politicians and commanders mouth close or all of our effort lose their meaning ....

become able to domestically turn 3gneration F-5 to 4th-Generation F-5 is good achievement but they ruined it ....
Agreed,these utterly idiotic over hyped unveilings that creates unrealistic expectations is very damaging both politically and militarily to irans credibility.Had this been handled differently,ie none of this bogus new aircraft claims crap,then I think that the results would have been both more impressive and just as importantly far,far less embarrassing.
 
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Zob ahan is 47 years old . Islamic republic is 40 years old I wouldn't call it "over night" .

Main point is today's Iran in some fields are much better than France 1996 but why it can't be seen on defense industry specially our topic airforce projects ?
I think the main reason is Iran's isolation. I have a small startup here and it is so easy to access all the resources in the world to grow. You can call different companies everywhere to see if they are interested in your product or ask for investment from other side of the world.

I'm also in touch with startups in Iran in the same field that I am and life is so tough. They are limited to resources within the country.

This is a huge difference. If France wants to develope a 5th generation fighter jet, it doesn't need to source all its requirements from within its industry and 60 million population. It can go the German, British, Japanese and..... to source best of everything that it can't find in France. So they move much faster than us.

No country can ever be as resourceful as the whole world.
 
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F-5 can carry 3200kg but Kosar according to what available online carry less . a lot less , around half that amount.
F-5 fly up to 16.5km , Kosar fly up to 15km , F5 fly as fast as 1.6mach kosar fly at 1.2mach .

all these point to two things , first for some reason structure of Kosar is much heavier than F-5 or Owj engine is considerably weaker than J85 engine.

Those stats are for a clean F-5E. They probably gave numbers for a typical weapon and fuel loaded Kowsar = realistic numbers.
 
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Russia won't sell Iran Su-25 for $11 million, but we can build a Kowsar for 16 million with SAR-GMTI radar, modern navigation system, SVP-24 equivalent and advanced targeting pod, which the 11 million internal price Su-25 of 80's vintage don't has. All that makes up 7,5 million, means the airframe itself with engines costs just 8,5 millions, take 3-4 million away for the two engines and you build a supersonic rated non-composite material fighter airframe for 5$ million and that is for limited numbers.
You won't get a Su-25 with equal avionics from Russia for 20 million (5m export profit and 10m built cost).

You can get a single engine L-159 for $10 million with similar avionics.
You can get a twin engine YAK-130 for $15 million.
But neither are supersonic and none carries more than the F-5.


in best case , we just need to upgrade our F-5 to Kowsar Standard and use it for basic combat training for our Pilots .... not build new F-5 because those are useless anyway .... even in Iran-Iraq war , F-5 Fighters were almost useless and it was during 1980s ....


side note : with this upgrade for F-5s , the Kowsar Project has no value .... right now we have two seat Fighter/Trainer so why should we spend more on Kowsar project !? ....
 
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Realistically how will the jet preform though? I know I don't speak for myself when I ask this since many who follow military related topics tend to label Iran as a maker of fake and or grossly underwhelming products when it comes to the standard big ticket item; tanks, jets, ships etc, etc. So Iran coming out and talking about this F-5 upgrade/variant I'm guessing only brings more speculation as to whether or not Iran is trying to show its legit advancement in Jet tech or just another propaganda ploy midst increasing economic hardship and regional/trans-regional tensions. how often does Iran use the F-5 currently, how many are in service, what is the real world efficacy of this rather dated aircraft.

I'm just absolutely stumped on what this F-5 variant is for exactly. Is Iran planning on finally focusing on a build up of it's air force? As well as how many Iran is willing to produce (I think this is always overlooked, given how bad a shape Irans air force is in currently).

Some one said in this thread earlier or perhaps another thread that Iran needs interceptors and I completely agree with that sentiment. Given that this plane looks rather small I'm guessing its flight range is not that big so it's for close air combat, or air-to-ground combat?

Anyways, You said that since this air craft is cost effective so one would HOPE that Iran at least produces an amicable amount of them. Personally I think Iran needs to shift away from ballistic missiles and focus more on jet production and technology. BMs are a great deterrent but the 21st war needs more than just missiles.


till our Government don't found for our Turbo Fan jet engine project and the project don't show real fruits , then all of Iran's Fighter jet programs are in vain .... without reliable , optimized and cost effective Jet engine , we can't built anything better than F-5 ....
 
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I think the main reason is Iran's isolation. I have a small startup here and it is so easy to access all the resources in the world to grow. You can call different companies everywhere to see if they are interested in your product or ask for investment from other side of the world.

I'm also in touch with startups in Iran in the same field that I am and life is so tough. They are limited to resources within the country.

This is a huge difference. If France wants to develope a 5th generation fighter jet, it doesn't need to source all its requirements from within its industry and 60 million population. It can go the German, British, Japanese and..... to source best of everything that it can't find in France. So they move much faster than us.

No country can ever be as resourceful as the whole world.
Very true,however when you consider how little iran spends on its military compared to it neighbors......
Iran doesnt need to be as resourceful as the whole world,but the simple fact is that when it comes to weapons and their associated technological development if you arent willing to put up the cash and the other resources necessary in the first place then dont expect great results.
Also,if you then try and pretend that those not so great,ie mediocre,results are something much more impressive than what they really are,well then you just run the risk of winding up looking very stupid.
 
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in best case , we just need to upgrade our F-5 to Kowsar Standard and use it for basic combat training for our Pilots .... not build new F-5 because those are useless anyway .... even in Iran-Iraq war , F-5 Fighters were almost useless and it was during 1980s ....


side note : with this upgrade for F-5s , the Kowsar Project has no value .... right now we have two seat Fighter/Trainer so why should we spend more on Kowsar project !? ....

The F-5 was everything except useless during the war, it was THE short range bomber that provided CAS to the frontline.
F-4s did the fancy stuff and flew into Iraqi airspace and F-14 even fancier, intercepting Iraqi strike packages.
But avoid such statements.

Secondly: Since the mid 2000s, they have started to build F-5 airframes. Why? Why have they put a obsolete J85 engine into production?

Answer: Developing something and serial producing something are two different worlds. If you want to have a aircraft building plant you literally need generations of experiences workforce.
A serial production in which everyday production problems are experienced and solved ist of ultimate importance.
Iran just entered that phase. They must build airframes and everything to set up a working production plant that some day can receive blueprints from developers and switch production to the new design.

Yes purely money wise it would be better to use existing F-5 airframes and upgrade them to Kowsar standard. But Irans goal here is to set up a aircraft industry: A factory with hundreds of professionals making fighters.

Arminkh said something important: You would wonder how many countries have OEM suppliers from all around the world. Complete subsystems come from other countries, those who offer a better price than at home.
Irans OEMs are more or less all in Iran and if there is no OEM capable to build a part, there is no alternative than to work and invest till it can.
 
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su un forum italiano un utente ha riportato una riflessione interessante
"In ogni caso vorrei menzionare la straordinaria somiglianza dei caccia da combattimento prodotti in Israele (Nesher, Kfir) con aerei francesi, i Mirage III e V
Anche gli israeliani sono partiti da un aereo straniero e lo hanno fortemente modificato in termini di motori, avionica, ecc.
Forse gli iraniani hanno fatto qualcosa del genere con questi derivati dell'F-5
Anche noi (l'Italia) per decenni siamo andati avanti con l'F-104 modificato (F-104S, ASA, ASAM) "

in all this affair it was only the language of some authorities that ruined the party of this new version of the F-5
called Kowsar
 
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