Iran's domestic advanced jet trainer "Yasin"

[QWECXZ]

i found a funny figure states different PHD professors salaries in US based on how big and important is their university and other factors (as we are talking about the cost of this project in US dollar). according to sapling.com (which itself quotes the numbers of payscale), a professor in US can have 50,000-150,000 dollars in a month.
so if we assume that US has no trainer like yasin and they are starting to build one from scratch, with same amount of PHD graduates i stated in the above mentioned quote, their yasin project equivalent would cost around 0.5-1.5 billion dollars.
this issue is almost similar to the fact that investors from allover the world are eager to invest in china as china has one of the cheapest labors in the world.

The US reports salaries annually, not monthly. $150,000 is the salary of a professor in a year.

 

[Mithridates]

The US reports salaries annually, not monthly. $150,000 is the salary of a professor in a year.

yup my mistake.

 

[Hack-Hook]

i found a funny figure states different PHD professors salaries in US based on how big and important is their university and other factors (as we are talking about the cost of this project in US dollar). according to sapling.com (which itself quotes the numbers of payscale), a professor in US can have 50,000-150,000 dollars in a month.
so if we assume that US has no trainer like yasin and they are starting to build one from scratch, with same amount of PHD graduates i stated in the above mentioned quote, their yasin project equivalent would cost around 0.5-1.5 billion dollars.
this issue is almost similar to the fact that investors from allover the world are eager to invest in china as china has one of the cheapest labors in the world.

Well the PhD graduate won't make the trainer the engineer do that .

 

[Mithridates]

Well the PhD graduate won't make the trainer the engineer do that .

i know, designing is PHD professors job. i just wanted to give that dude an example.

 

[-blitzkrieg-]

Just U.S and Russia. others' products are under license.
This is what one of our air force commanders talked about few months ago.

Martin-Baker UK , the makers of the first ejection seat ever ..they make it till date..
Germany(Heinkel) and Sweden(Saab) used to develop it in past.
Chinese and French are also at advanced level in this area.

Keeping up with the standards is the real deal..A pilots life on a trainer is more important to be wasted with a neck-wrecking seat Airforce has spent so much on.

 

[VEVAK]

You can't ask someone to take what you say for granted. You said the 9 billion figure was the minimum required to keep the status quo and mentioned some things that were necessary to include. But you didn't show us the math behind the 9 billion dollar figure. What is the average salary in armed forces in Tomans? I can make up numbers on my own and prove to you that 5 billion dollars is enough for all of the things you mentioned.

The 85% figure for the decrease in the budget for the Ministry of Defense claimed by one of the users here was close to reality and even the figures you posted confirmed it. What are you complaining about exactly? Even the graph of Iran's military expenditure demonstrates a sharp drop in 2013 and 2014. It may not be 85%, but it's still a very significant drop in our military expenditure compared to other years.

I'm not saying ~$5-$6Billion isn't enough to simply pay the paychecks however to simply keep the status que your not simply paying paycheck how many time do I have to repeat that to you?

1.After paychecks, you still have to pay for healthcare & benefits to not only Iran's Active, Reservist, retired military and defense related personal (Which included everyone from a janitor working at government owned ammo production facility to fighter pilots to full time and part time Basij members)
Paychecks aside even to this day Iran has to pay medical expenses of troops injured in the Iran-Iraq war.

Also, you clearly don't seem to understand how many people are card holding members of the Basij and how many of those members receive some form of government assistance. We have easily well over a Million men and women in the Basij who are either full time and part time and receive paychecks however we also have millions more who simply in one form or another receive benefits.

2.Pay for Food & Beverages. Again a necessity with food served multiple times a day across every base in the country.

3.None weapons related supplies from office supplies to uniforms and anything that's not food, fuel or weapons related. Again a necessity!

4.Military and government assisted housing. And it's not simply a matter of building new military housing but you also have to maintain it.

5.Fuel from normal Safir jeeps given to personal to fighter jet to electricity & natural gas needed for bases.....
Again a rather vast amount of fuel from electricity to gasoline is needed and used on a "daily" bases to simply keep the status quo

6.Maintenance & upkeep (From base maintenance to the maintenance required to keep the current fleet of Iranian weapons active from fighter jets to ships to subs to tanks & jeeps.....) which is not free and rather costly.

7.Ammo and funds required for standard training and standard in border ops like boarder patrol... again ammo isn't free so training your personal simply to keep the status que isn't cheap either and neither are boarder operations needed to keep our boarders safe

So again it's not simply about paying $5-6 Billon in paychecks!

 

[Kastor]

I'm not saying ~$5-$6Billion isn't enough to simply pay the paychecks however to simply keep the status que your not simply paying paycheck how many time do I have to repeat that to you?
So again it's not simply about paying $5-6 Billon in paychecks!

I seriously doubt we will ever know the true budget....there is very little sunlight when it comes to this type of things....obviously by design.

This article is dated 5/2016, so it seems the military budget was actually increased overall for the 1st and second year in office. The reallocation of the money around may have been used to falsely claim the Rouhani govt slashed funding.

"After the Management and Planning Organization released official budget documents for the current Iranian year in mid-March, shock spread through right-wing media outlets and publications. Many of them lashed out at Rouhani under headlines such as “The administration has decreased the defense budget.” Despite such assertions, was there actually a proposed decrease in the defense budget?

https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/or...ending-irgc-budget-reduced-army-increase.html

Based on the number of personnel employed by the Armed Forces of the Islamic Republic of Iran, the army has the most troops, weapons and military installations at its disposal. The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC), possessing about one-third of Iran’s military power, is ranked second. Following them are the paramilitary Basij organization, the Ministry of Defense and the Armed Forces General Staff. Although the army's capabilities far exceed those of the IRGC, the latter always receives almost two times as much funding as the former.

In the fiscal year that began March 20, 2013, the first five months of which took place during President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s last year in office, Iran’s total defense budget was $6.24 billion. In the following fiscal year, beginning March 21, 2014, marking Rouhani’s first full year in office, the defense budget grew by $1.85 billion, bringing the total to more than $8 billion.

This is from a (Dec 2018) 2019 article about the current budget:

https://en.radiofarda.com/a/iran-defense-ministry-budget-declines-irgc-more-funding/29679511.html

"Not many details about Iran's budget bill for the next year, presented to the parliament on December 25, have been publicly released.

However, a few key points about Iran's defense budget for the next year were leaked the day after President Hassan Rouhani presented the bill amid heckling and protests by a group of hard-line MPs.

Many Iranians on social media, mainly regime supporters, protested against what they called "a dramatic decline" in Iran's military budget.

Iran's defense budget covers spending for the army, the IRGC, the Basij, the Defense Ministry, and the Joint Staff of the Armed Forces.

In a series of tweets on December 25, Hossein Dalirian, editor of the IRGC-linked Tasnim news agency's defense desk, presented details about next year's defense budget that while indicating a decline in the budget of the Iranian Army, the budget allocated to the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) has increased.

Dalirian wrote that Iran's total annual defense budget for the next year has been deceased by 27.3 percent while the budget for the Defense Ministry, which manufactures hardware such as missiles, has been decreased by 50 percent.
The IRGC's overall budget was increased from 202 trillion to 255 trillion rials or $4.7 billion.

Iran's official budget numbers should be taken with a grain of salt, especially when it comes to military and intelligence activities. Given lack of overall transparency, money from various sources can be funneled to clandestine activities.
In January 2018, the Rouhani administration withdrew some $4.8 billion from the National Development Fund to amend the budget allocated to the IRGC and state-controlled broadcaster IRIB.
It could well be that reductions in some military budget line items in the current bill can be later increased with money withdrawn from the special development fund, which is supposed to help ensure the well-being of future generations.

 

[VEVAK]

I seriously doubt we will ever know the true budget....there is very little sunlight when it comes to this type of things....obviously by design.

This article is dated 5/2016, so it seems the military budget was actually increased overall for the 1st and second year in office. The reallocation of the money around may have been used to falsely claim the Rouhani govt slashed funding.

"After the Management and Planning Organization released official budget documents for the current Iranian year in mid-March, shock spread through right-wing media outlets and publications. Many of them lashed out at Rouhani under headlines such as “The administration has decreased the defense budget.” Despite such assertions, was there actually a proposed decrease in the defense budget?

https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/or...ending-irgc-budget-reduced-army-increase.html

Based on the number of personnel employed by the Armed Forces of the Islamic Republic of Iran, the army has the most troops, weapons and military installations at its disposal. The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC), possessing about one-third of Iran’s military power, is ranked second. Following them are the paramilitary Basij organization, the Ministry of Defense and the Armed Forces General Staff. Although the army's capabilities far exceed those of the IRGC, the latter always receives almost two times as much funding as the former.

In the fiscal year that began March 20, 2013, the first five months of which took place during President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s last year in office, Iran’s total defense budget was $6.24 billion. In the following fiscal year, beginning March 21, 2014, marking Rouhani’s first full year in office, the defense budget grew by $1.85 billion, bringing the total to more than $8 billion.

This is from a (Dec 2018) 2019 article about the current budget:

https://en.radiofarda.com/a/iran-defense-ministry-budget-declines-irgc-more-funding/29679511.html

"Not many details about Iran's budget bill for the next year, presented to the parliament on December 25, have been publicly released.

However, a few key points about Iran's defense budget for the next year were leaked the day after President Hassan Rouhani presented the bill amid heckling and protests by a group of hard-line MPs.

Many Iranians on social media, mainly regime supporters, protested against what they called "a dramatic decline" in Iran's military budget.

Iran's defense budget covers spending for the army, the IRGC, the Basij, the Defense Ministry, and the Joint Staff of the Armed Forces.

In a series of tweets on December 25, Hossein Dalirian, editor of the IRGC-linked Tasnim news agency's defense desk, presented details about next year's defense budget that while indicating a decline in the budget of the Iranian Army, the budget allocated to the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) has increased.

Dalirian wrote that Iran's total annual defense budget for the next year has been deceased by 27.3 percent while the budget for the Defense Ministry, which manufactures hardware such as missiles, has been decreased by 50 percent.
The IRGC's overall budget was increased from 202 trillion to 255 trillion rials or $4.7 billion.

Iran's official budget numbers should be taken with a grain of salt, especially when it comes to military and intelligence activities. Given lack of overall transparency, money from various sources can be funneled to clandestine activities.
In January 2018, the Rouhani administration withdrew some $4.8 billion from the National Development Fund to amend the budget allocated to the IRGC and state-controlled broadcaster IRIB.
It could well be that reductions in some military budget line items in the current bill can be later increased with money withdrawn from the special development fund, which is supposed to help ensure the well-being of future generations.

However, due to a noticeable increase in Iran's beyond border activities and military aid provided to both Iraq and Syria there should have naturally been a rather noticeable increase to Iran's military budget which has NOT happened under the Rohani administration and the result is a decrease in funding in various fields and projects.

As for the IRGC, yes they have had a rather constant increase in not only their government assigned military budget but also their own overall income. However an increase in their budget is very much deserved and if anything should be double what it is today as long as most goes towards weapons acquisition. Especially the budget for IRGC Aerospace forces.

As for the budget for the Army as appose to IRGC ground forces I would again lean more towards the IRGC ground forces for armored unites because they have shown far more progress compared to the money allocated to them.

When it comes to the Navy the Rohani administration has very clearly failed to properly fund them to allow them even finish current projects let alone move on to various other projects they had... And Iran's Navy is the most active branches of the Artesh when it comes to conducting their own R&D and not leaning on the MOD to do everything for them and they should have been rewarded for that.....

Also, the Rohani administration has practically dismantled Iran's space Agency and they have not only cut their funding but the people they have brought and the way they have structured various sections has clearly allowed foreign intelligence agencies to have easier access to infiltrate..... And the result is that the Rohani administration hasn't had a single successful launch of the Simorgh SLV let alone fund the development of more advanced SLV's

As for the JCPOA although I agree it was a necessity and it had to be done however Rohani administrations failure to properly respond is also inexcusable and their obsession in holding on to the JCPOA is boarding on treason.

 

[Kastor]

However, due to a noticeable increase in Iran's beyond border activities and military aid provided to both Iraq and Syria there should have naturally been a rather noticeable increase to Iran's military budget which has NOT happened under the Rohani administration and the result is a decrease in funding in various fields and projects.

As for the IRGC, yes they have had a rather constant increase in not only their government assigned military budget but also their own overall income. However an increase in their budget is very much deserved and if anything should be double what it is today as long as most goes towards weapons acquisition. Especially the budget for IRGC Aerospace forces.

As for the budget for the Army as appose to IRGC ground forces I would again lean more towards the IRGC ground forces for armored unites because they have shown far more progress compared to the money allocated to them.

When it comes to the Navy the Rohani administration has very clearly failed to properly fund them to allow them even finish current projects let alone move on to various other projects they had... And Iran's Navy is the most active branches of the Artesh when it comes to conducting their own R&D and not leaning on the MOD to do everything for them and they should have been rewarded for that.....

Also, the Rohani administration has practically dismantled Iran's space Agency and they have not only cut their funding but the people they have brought and the way they have structured various sections has clearly allowed foreign intelligence agencies to have easier access to infiltrate..... And the result is that the Rohani administration hasn't had a single successful launch of the Simorgh SLV let alone fund the development of more advanced SLV's

As for the JCPOA although I agree it was a necessity and it had to be done however Rohani administrations failure to properly respond is also inexcusable and their obsession in holding on to the JCPOA is boarding on treason.

Yes, they had to draw up a budget and see how much income was coming in and how they could fund the entire government, as do all other governments. So the unenviable task to fund the whole of government not just defense will result in reductions. However, the budget stated in the articles showed the defense budget actually rose in the first 2 yrs of Rouhani's admin....but by the 3rd year the sanctions started biting, so like most administrations facing economic constraints or in our case sanctions that severely limit income they have resorted to cut spending.....nothing unusual about that. it happened all over Europe, most notably the UK under the title of Austerity.

 

[QWECXZ]

I'm not saying ~$5-$6Billion isn't enough to simply pay the paychecks however to simply keep the status que your not simply paying paycheck how many time do I have to repeat that to you?

1.After paychecks, you still have to pay for healthcare & benefits to not only Iran's Active, Reservist, retired military and defense related personal (Which included everyone from a janitor working at government owned ammo production facility to fighter pilots to full time and part time Basij members)
Paychecks aside even to this day Iran has to pay medical expenses of troops injured in the Iran-Iraq war.

Also, you clearly don't seem to understand how many people are card holding members of the Basij and how many of those members receive some form of government assistance. We have easily well over a Million men and women in the Basij who are either full time and part time and receive paychecks however we also have millions more who simply in one form or another receive benefits.

2.Pay for Food & Beverages. Again a necessity with food served multiple times a day across every base in the country.

3.None weapons related supplies from office supplies to uniforms and anything that's not food, fuel or weapons related. Again a necessity!

4.Military and government assisted housing. And it's not simply a matter of building new military housing but you also have to maintain it.

5.Fuel from normal Safir jeeps given to personal to fighter jet to electricity & natural gas needed for bases.....
Again a rather vast amount of fuel from electricity to gasoline is needed and used on a "daily" bases to simply keep the status quo

6.Maintenance & upkeep (From base maintenance to the maintenance required to keep the current fleet of Iranian weapons active from fighter jets to ships to subs to tanks & jeeps.....) which is not free and rather costly.

7.Ammo and funds required for standard training and standard in border ops like boarder patrol... again ammo isn't free so training your personal simply to keep the status que isn't cheap either and neither are boarder operations needed to keep our boarders safe

So again it's not simply about paying $5-6 Billon in paychecks!

You're just repeating yourself. I never said we have to count only paychecks, but as a starting point, that's the first thing that should be calculated otherwise any figure that is not based on actual statistics about at least the average salary is utter BS. You came up with the 9 billion USD figure. Not me. And I'm asking how you came up with it. If you can't say how you came up with it, then don't just repeat yourself because there's no point in doing that.

 

[QWECXZ]

However, the budget stated in the articles showed the defense budget actually rose in the first 2 yrs of Rouhani's admin....

What articles? Where?
I think that the defense budget during the Rouhani adminsitration definitely deserves a topic of its own.

 

[VEVAK]

You're just repeating yourself. I never said we have to count only paychecks, but as a starting point, that's the first thing that should be calculated otherwise any figure that is not based on actual statistics about at least the average salary is utter BS. You came up with the 9 billion USD figure. Not me. And I'm asking how you came up with it. If you can't say how you came up with it, then don't just repeat yourself because there's no point in doing that.

It's not my job to make you believe anything nor is it my job to do the math for you! But I'll give you one simple example so that you might better understand.

Iran has well OVER 5 Million men and women in the Basij that receive some sort of government benefit now if these Basij card holders were to simply receive an average of $18 USD a month in benefits that would equal to what?
5 Million ppl X $18 USD per month X 12 months in a year = 1,080,000,000 USD (we Iranians have a saying "qatreh qatreh jam gardad vongahi darya shavad" which roughly translated means drop by drop it adds until suddenly it's an ocean.)

So I'm back to my original statement that anyone claiming Iran's military budget is $6-$7 Billion either can't count or simply doesn't know much about Iran's military much like the idiots running the Globalfirepower.com website that have Iran's military budget at $6.3 billion USD and are under the delusion that Iran has no more than 126 helicopters with no more than 12 Attack Helicopters.

 

[VEVAK]

Yes, they had to draw up a budget and see how much income was coming in and how they could fund the entire government, as do all other governments. So the unenviable task to fund the whole of government not just defense will result in reductions. However, the budget stated in the articles showed the defense budget actually rose in the first 2 yrs of Rouhani's admin....but by the 3rd year the sanctions started biting, so like most administrations facing economic constraints or in our case sanctions that severely limit income they have resorted to cut spending.....nothing unusual about that. it happened all over Europe, most notably the UK under the title of Austerity.

Ture however none of those countries are actually being threatened militarily by countries with far greater defense budgets.

If we continue to get leaders that follow the same absurd pattern as the Rohani administration the results would be rather clear, meaning sanctions continue to increase and as a result you continue to cut military spending year after year then end result is a military defeat and or worse an invasion.

India just recently sent a probe to the moon for less than $80 Million USD so I wanna be very clear that it's the failed policies of the Rohani administration that has resulted in them not being able to send a single sat up with the Simorgh not sanctions and lets be clear from the west perspective if sanctions can get Iran to practically abandon it's SLV program and cut it's defense budget then clearly sanctions are working for them and they would have no reason to abandon them and the only way they'll think twice about increasing pressure is if that pressure is resulting in Iran vastly increasing it's military acquisitions and development.....

 

[QWECXZ]

It's not my job to make you believe anything nor is it my job to do the math for you! But I'll give you one simple example so that you might better understand.

Iran has well OVER 5 Million men and women in the Basij that receive some sort of government benefit now if these Basij card holders were to simply receive an average of $18 USD a month in benefits that would equal to what?
5 Million ppl X $18 USD per month X 12 months in a year = 1,080,000,000 USD (we Iranians have a saying "qatreh qatreh jam gardad vongahi darya shavad" which roughly translated means drop by drop it adds until suddenly it's an ocean.)

So I'm back to my original statement that anyone claiming Iran's military budget is $6-$7 Billion either can't count or simply doesn't know much about Iran's military much like the idiots running the Globalfirepower.com website that have Iran's military budget at $6.3 billion USD and are under the delusion that Iran has no more than 126 helicopters with no more than 12 Attack Helicopters.

Good.
Actually, if my memory serves me well, the official figures claim that Iran has 11 million people registered in the Basij, but fewer than 2 million of them are active members (official numbers claim that +500,000 Basijis are available for mission). Anyway, I'm not sure, but I highly doubt that inactive members receive any sort of long-term, frequent benefits.

So, 2 million * 20 * 12 = 480 million dollars.
Let's say that Iran has 1 million military personnel combined (Artesh + IRGC) and on average, Iran has to spend 150,000 Toman on each personnel (active or reserved) for salary + benefits per day:

15 * 1,000,000 * 365 = 5,475,000,000

So, 6.3 Billion dollars seems sufficient for providing the basic needs of Artesh + IRGC + Basij.

Also, let's not forget that IRGC has its own economic activities and they control important parts of the Iranian economy like the construction sector and the telecommunications sector (which is the second profitable sector of the Iranian economy after the energy sector). This is their own income and it has nothing to do with the Iranian government (which is the subject of our discussion) and therefore, you can't include it in the calculations. As a matter of fact, the IRGC is prosperous enough to support itself without receiving much from the government.

Also, when Global Fire Power says that Iran 162 helicopters, I think this is how they calculate it:

Number of helicopters Iran has = Number of helicopters received before the 1979 revolution - Number of helicopters lost during the Iraq-Iran war + Number of helicopters received after the 1979 revolution

Obviously, they don't count the number of helicopters we have produced domestically because nobody knows the true number of helicopters we have produced locally. I don't blame them for that.

 

[Kastor]

Ture however none of those countries are actually being threatened militarily by countries with far greater defense budgets.

If we continue to get leaders that follow the same absurd pattern as the Rohani administration the results would be rather clear, meaning sanctions continue to increase and as a result you continue to cut military spending year after year then end result is a military defeat and or worse an invasion.

India just recently sent a probe to the moon for less than $80 Million USD so I wanna be very clear that it's the failed policies of the Rohani administration that has resulted in them not being able to send a single sat up with the Simorgh not sanctions and lets be clear from the west perspective if sanctions can get Iran to practically abandon it's SLV program and cut it's defense budget then clearly sanctions are working for them and they would have no reason to abandon them and the only way they'll think twice about increasing pressure is if that pressure is resulting in Iran vastly increasing it's military acquisitions and development.....

Ok, but where is the money going to come from? You need income to spend, deficit spending can be only carried out for a few cycles before hyper inflation becomes another headache to deal with. Rouhani admin didn't do anything revolutionary...nuclear negotiations have been going on since Khatami's admin....sanctions have been in place since the late 1970's. Rouhani didn't elect Trump nor did he open the oval office door to a bona fide Mossad asset (Kushner). None of the precedings could have been anticipated by any admin, Mexico, China, even Canada were caught in this political hailstorm...Rouhani's admin is doing what any rational govt will do, cut spending, borrowing money from sovereign funds or just other available funds to fund the budget....all the while they've pursuing a 2 prong strategy, slowly rolling back nuclear agreements and simultaneously pursuing diplomacy....there is nothing treasonous about these actions. It is during this admin that we got the S-300 system and the subsequent completion of Bavar-373, Karrar tank, various other missiles and small arms, the creation of Saudi's Vietnam in Yemen, reprogramming the Russian's missile system in Syria that resulted in the 1st downing of an Israeli jet in decades, and let's not forget the downing of the global hawk etc. We are no way unprotected or weak in my opinion as a result of this admin....if anything the world has come to begrudgingly respect Iran more than anytime in my recent memory.