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Iranians vs Arabs - The Dilemma for the Muslim World

so what school of thought is stopping this amongst the arabs and persians? - and why is it so compelling that arabs/persians can deny our countries shared prosperity, PEACE and co-operation - this is the main bone of contention


Excellent! - so lets get past the polite stuff to the heart of contention - and that too, is an ancient political struggle, namely political survival of which the created Sunni and Shi'ah rubbish is an example.

The political and religious authority of the Wahabi of Saudi Arabia seek to position themselves as the sole representatives of the Sunni and as such, seek to project "the truth" as they understand it, of Islam, outward, out to the world.

The Shi'ah clergy of Iran, recalling the Safavieh religio-nationalism of again, the past political struggles, seek to position themselves as the soile exclusive representative of all Muslims, and to do this, identify themselves with the most important "political and geo-political" issue among Muslims, the plight of Palestine and the occupation of Jerusalem - and whereas the Wahabi as the imagined representatives of the Sunni project "the truth" (as they understand it) of Islam, outward, the Iranian clergy projects "the truth" (as they understand it) of Islam, inward, towards the world of Islam.

Seeing the Iranian revolution and the overthrow of the monarchy, the princes of the House of Saud, fearing for their own throne, should Muslims in their kingdom come to think that the Monarchy is arachaic, "unIslamic" appendage of jahiliyah, energized the Wahabi establishment to train thousands of radicals and to broadcast them and their ideology across the Muslim world, taking a page from the Iranian clergy, they began to project inwards towards the world of Islam. They also, with support from Western powers, primarily the US and the UK, instigated Iraq's Saddam Hussain to wage a 8 year war on upon Iran, resulting in the deaths of more than 0ne million Muslims on both sides.

Where OUGHT Pakistan position herself in this gigantic mess? Pakistan's appeal must be to conscience. Pakistan is a unique country, a Sunni majority, but Pakistan is also the second largest Shi'ah country, whose largest religious minority is Christian, primarily Catholic - When we say Pakistan's appeal must be one based on conscience, we mean that it articulates our conviction that all who say, La Illaha Illala wa Muhammad ar Rasoul Allah, are Muslims, and no one, absolutely no one, can challenge that relationship between The Creator and His creature, doesn't mean we can't debate, dissent or challenge the theosophy or philosophical constructs, just that we will call a spade a spade, so to speak, and declare that this struggle has little to do with Islam and God and His Mercy and more to do with politics of national ambition played out on a global scale.
 
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Where OUGHT Pakistan position herself in this gigantic mess? Pakistan's appeal must be to conscience. Pakistan is a unique country, a Sunni majority, but Pakistan is also the second largest Shi'ah country, whose largest religious minority is Christian, primarily Catholic - When we say Pakistan's appeal must be one based on conscience, we mean that it articulates our conviction that all who say, La Illaha Illala wa Muhammad ar Rasoul Allah, are Muslims, and no one, absolutely no one, can challenge that relationship between The Creator and His creature, doesn't mean we can't debate, dissent or challenge the theosophy or philosophical constructs, just that we will call a spade a spade, so to speak, and declare that this struggle has little to do with Islam and God and His Mercy and more to do with politics of national ambition played out on a global scale.

100% agree.


yet pakistani's tend to idly watch as arabs/iranians kick holes out of one another and try to compete over who cares more for the palestinians, or who is more islamic, or who is furthering islamic interests - when in fact neither arabs or iranians are true to anything other than...............?

does this conflict not border on the self indulgent if they are more determined to hate one another than to try and create unity - for what reason?

why should this hubris go unchecked by the wider islamic world?
 
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i think as much as pakistani's and bharati's bark at each other iranians and arabs can match us, if not surpass us.

the arabs looks like they are more likely to mobilise for a fight against the iranians than they are the israeli's - go figure?


but my question is why should pakistani's tolerate it - both countries claim to be islamic, in fact hyper islamic - yet how is it that islam is forgotten and historical grudges based on race become the issue - in that sense this hyper islam is nothing more than a front, a pseudo islam.

my contention is that a unified islam world will bring greater prosperity for the islamic world (and pakistan)- an islamic world that is being pulled apart by its two poles is causing great damage to the region - and pakistan is slap bang in the middle

why do a lot of arabs and iranians pretend that they care about islamic unity when they can barely get on with one another?

:lazy::lazy::lazy: dont make it islamic fight.

Their conflict is thousands of years old.

Its another matter that now Iran is playing religious card.
 
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I WILL SIDE WITH ARABS TO FIGHT IRANIES, WHEN THEY (IRANIES) R DEFEATED IN WILL TURN MY GUNS ON ARABS TO FINISH THE REST OF FITNA. :coffee:
 
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:lazy::lazy::lazy: dont make it islamic fight.

Their conflict is thousands of years old.

Its another matter that now Iran is playing religious card.


whether its islamic, ethnic, civilizational or imaginary it spills over into pakistans interests, in fact at this time of islamic disharmony and suffering its one that we could all do without - whats so significant about it that it must be tolerated?
 
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does this conflict not border on the self indulgent if they are more determined to hate one another than to try and create unity - for what reason?

why should this hubris go unchecked by the wider islamic world?


Precisely! You know how long the people who comprise the management and TT of this forum have been struggling to bring about just such a realization.

Who can challenge "this hubris"?? You know ordinary persons lend or give themselves to this lunacy, they do not see a value in their rejection of this "hubris" and instead see a value in themselves by associating with one or the other (the "Praise Whore" construct begins with the powerless (secretaries) operating in such a way that they seek to make themselves powerful through the power of their bosses).

In Pakistan, because the Saudi Wahabi notion that Islam in Pakistan is "weak" has been internalized, many indulge in the kind of behavior we speak of above.

All along we have spoken of the quality of values that we hope characterizes our understanding of Islam - These go largely unarticulated and this is sad because the natural appeal of these values which shape this understanding of Islam to large majorities of Muslims everywhere, will go unrealized.

But this should not prevent Pakistanis and Pakistan from articulating these in a calm and assured manner - we do not need to be forceful, we do need to be resolute, resilient, and resourceful in ensuring that we first make sure these values, this understanding of Islam, replaces the violent, hate filled, ignorant and ultimately "unIslamic" values which today inform the understanding of Islam to many.

I don't think we can hope to bring Muslims together, unless we first succeed in doing so in Pakistan - and for that to be successful, I'm persuaded that we must speak truth to the authorities in Saudi about the relationship between funding and sources of ideology there and terrorism in Pakistan.
 
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But this should not prevent Pakistanis and Pakistan from articulating these in a calm and assured manner - we do not need to be forceful, we do need to be resolute, resilient, and resourceful in ensuring that we first make sure these values, this understanding of Islam, replaces the violent, hate filled, ignorant and ultimately "unIslamic" values which today inform the understanding of Islam to many.

I don't think we can hope to bring Muslims together, unless we first succeed in doing so in Pakistan - and for that to be successful, I'm persuaded that we must speak truth to the authorities in Saudi about the relationship between funding and sources of ideology there and terrorism in Pakistan.


it would not harm to remind these iranians/arabs of their self indulgence now and again - just to know its not going unnoticed
 
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don't speak for us, we don't need a india to tell us who's our friend. Pakistan has suffered 40-60 billion dollars worth of damage by becoming America's Major non-Nato Ally in WOT. Regarding 1971, American aircraft carrier wasn't sent to help Pakistan at all, it was rather a show of force to China to back off.

And from where did you get this 40-60 billion figure that I've constantly seen changing in this entire forum? Your problem started much before US arrival in Afghanistan as this has been discussed a dozen times. Instead of disbanding Taliban you tried to retain and use them as a weapon. When they started doing things outside your interests and got into trouble with the West, you were naturally to be dragged in this war.

In 1971, there was first of all no China in the picture except US encouraging Chinese to supply arms to you. Don't make up stories just to cover your own perspective. If it had been a show to China, the carrier would have gone to south China Sea. It was there in our territory; Bay of Bengal. And that was something US did totally to save you. Don't see them from the present day lenses and at least give them the due of their past goodwill to you.

Americans dumped us before after the soviets left Afghanistan and American are doing the same today.

There was never a before and after and simply put, the turning point was your ambition to go nuclear. That is what put Americans off. What makes you think Americans are against you today? Their burgeoning trade with us? That way they're trading more with China than us so they're against us as well? :lol:. Arms sales is a neutral policy of US and not a political statement. You know this; they sell weapons to Arabs and Jews at the same time; they sell weapons to Columbians and Brazilians at the same time etc. France does the same when it sells you stuff and sells us as well. Its simple business post-Cold war. Russia keeps its weapons off your hands simply because we're able to fill that requirement of theirs ourselves and well.. its considerably more sincere in long-term friendships.

US still doesn't officially support our bid to UNSC, of which 3 members support us fully. Our relationship with US is good but is more business-like whereas with you it has been very close for 40 years. Instead of using American expertise in developing your own infrastructure and capabilities like smart Turks did, your leaders rested on the laurels that US was managing everything for them without seeing the need of getting involved personally; like what Saudis do by hiring Western engineers and scientists to keep their fighter fleet airworthy instead of training young Saudis to do the same. The differences arose in 90s between you and Americans and when they left, suddenly there was a big void that was created again by your leaders by not using US tech and expertise to develop your own capabilities.
 
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don't speak for us, we don't need a india to tell us who's our friend. Pakistan has suffered 40-60 billion dollars worth of damage by becoming America's Major non-Nato Ally in WOT. Regarding 1971, American aircraft carrier wasn't sent to help Pakistan at all, it was rather a show of force to China to back off.

Americans dumped us before after the soviets left Afghanistan and American are doing the same today.

Try to get the difference between a discussion and acting as a spokesperson for somebody.If you don't then please don't bother commenting,not worth it.
 
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Every Iranian I have met to this date, was a wanna-be Zoroastrian or an atheist so i can't say much about them and their 'islamic unity' stuff.

Indeed, you would find the likes of such much in the ex-patriot community. Iran as a nation though remains ardently religious. Also, most of those abroad who are new claimants of Zoroastrianism, few actually practice the faith or are knowledgeable about it. Mostly, it is more of a way to distance oneself from Iran than anything else as opposed to actually held religious belief.

Iran?Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

bigger than all of our wars with india combined

my point: we and indians arent that heartless to use chemical weapons on each other.

Each other? Iran did not employ chemical warfare even though it's sole usage by the Iraqi forces inflicted much damage on Iranian troops and morale.

The US supports Arabs overtly and Iran covertly, what the US has done in Iraq and Afghanistan has indirectly strengthened the Iranian position.
The Iranians maintain there links secretly with Israel and US specifically and perhaps solely on the basis of there different Religious values from those of Arabs. And there are significant amount of people in US who view the corrupt and Power Hungry Shia Clergy in Iran as a strategic asset...!!!!

Needless to say I find your claims negating reality but let's assess them nonetheless. In thus far, US efforts have been directed to negate Iran and it's leadership actively. US adventurers in Afghanistan and Iraq were not meant for Iran's benefit, though inadvertently Iran has been able to reap out benefit which is more due to the failings of Iraq and the Taliban themselves and the ills they put upon the populace then anything else.

Iran maintains secret links with Israel? Also, what different religious values are your referring to? Sect-based? You forget that there is a significant Shi'a population amongst Arabs who actually form a majority in the Persian Gulf region even if lacking authority.

Power hungry Shi'a clergy. Care to explain that in detail as well. I'll mention beforehand if your answers are going to be based on sect-bashing or so forth, I am the least interested in carrying on the discussion for thus far you seem to be vilifying Iran solely based on religious belief.
 
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The Arab-Persian "tension" could be solved very simply: Have 'Abd al-'Aziz ibn 'Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Lateef Aal ash-Shaikh sincerely, and I mean sincerely, apologize for the murder of Hussein at Karbala. Problem solved.
 
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This thread is about Iran Vs Arabs, lets focus on that. China is a great time tested friend, no one can doubt that at all.

Actually, the thread-stater stated 'Persians' vs Arabs, i.e one ethnic against another so as to say in his perception and not Iran. Not all Iranians are Persian (I'm not) and not all Iranians are non-Arab. I find the whole discussion ridiculous as such.

this or that brother hood????????, doesnt iran fall under this or that brotherhood definition, , every body knows, it is iran and not pakistan which uses shia card every time, every it supports militant shia some times.. this kutter irani shia regime will not befried a sunni pakistan, one time visited an iranian forum and first i was asked was whether i was sunni or shia, so is it pakistan or iran at fault mr???

It is not Iran that uses a Shi'a card, it is a Shi'a card that is always used against Iran. Also, concerning Pakistan-Iran relations, your view is one sided in assessing that Iran has made them awry without realizing the negating moves of Pakistan's own leadership for instance General Zia and the Taliban in Afghanistan.

As for the bold part, post has been reported for using a slur against a religious group. Apni nafrat apne ghar tak rakho.

we think of iranians as camel riders, if they think of us as beggars

We ride donkeys as camels are isolated to some parts only. Hence, your logic is all but flawed and apart from other things, reflects your lack of knowledge on Iran.

In what way will it benefit "all Muslims"? Iranians are non-religious or pro-Zoroastrian in nature especially those who come out and take their Persian history of more importance than Islam itself.

This is incorrect. Our history is intertwined with Islam. Also, what leads you to the consensus that Iranians are non-religious and so forth in nature?

Iran is in self-imposed isolation as a country

This is incorrect also. Iran has been expanding bilateral relations with different countries and focusing on areas previously not trodden for instance central Africa and south America. There are more missions of Iran now then there were in 1979. Iran also holds many visits by dignitaries and also sends its own emissaries. So, for one thing, Iran is not a self-imposed isolationist state. Rather, the isolation is imposed upon it. Also, in that sense, Iran is only isolated from the states most vehemently against it.
 
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The Arab-Persian "tension" could be solved very simply: Have 'Abd al-'Aziz ibn 'Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Lateef Aal ash-Shaikh sincerely, and I mean sincerely, apologize for the murder of Hussein at Karbala. Problem solved.

What are you talking about and how is what you have posted have any bearing or connection to what the topic of discussion is?
 
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Persians have deep influence in sub-continent, can't say the same thing for Semitics.

Mbq.jpg

Muhammad bin Qasim Al-Thaqafi (Arabic: محمد بن قاسم‎) (c. 31 December 695–18 July 715) was an Umayyad general who, at the age of 17, began the conquest of the Sindh and Punjab regions along the Indus River (now a part of Pakistan) for the Umayyad Caliphate. He was born in the city of Taif (in modern day Saudi Arabia). Qasim's conquest of Sindh and Punjab laid the foundations of Islamic rule in the Indian subcontinent.

Muhammad bin Qasim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Both Arab Muslims and Persian Muslims are important to the Muslims of the Subcontinent.
 
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In what way will it benefit "all Muslims"? Iranians are non-religious or pro-Zoroastrian in nature especially those who come out and take their Persian history of more importance than Islam itself.

Oh really. Then why is Iran an Islamic Republic. Why isn't it secular like Turkey then.

Islamic Republic of Iran
جمهوری اسلامی ایران
Jomhuri-ye Eslāmi-ye Irān

800px-Flag_of_Iran.svg.png


Motto of Iran: استقلال. آزادی. جمهوری اسلامی
Independence, Freedom, Islamic Republic

National Anthem of Iran:
Upwards on the horizon the Eastern Sun rises
The light in the eyes of the Believers in Justice
Bahman is the zenith of our faith.
Your message, O Imam, independence, and freedom, the purpose of our lives,
is imprinted on our souls
O Martyrs! Your cries echo in the ears of time:
Be enduring, continuing, and eternal,
Islamic Republic of Iran



In 1947 Iran was the first country to recognize the newly independent state of Pakistan.

Mohammad_Ali_Jenah_Iran_stamp.jpg

An Iranian stamp commemorating the centenary of Mohammad Ali Jinnah (the founder of Pakistan), printed in 1976


I repeat. It will benefit all Muslims if all Muslims got along with each other. Only Muslims would understand this.
 
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