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im sorry i say it but i think you dont know very much about tactic in the war
1.you dont need destroy all bunker you said over 100 bunkers how much fighter su have its funny maybe over 1000 fighter if iran hit on fighter with one missile is not good every fighter over 40 -60 mi dollars but every missile very fewer than that
2.when you hit on bunker with 1 kinetic warhead with khoramshahr or emad or sejil you dont need hit it again with those missile you can hit it with shahabs or zolfhaghar or ....
3.what do you yhink about war between iran and su camel rider 10 years no dear maybe very much 3 months
4. did you think iran only attack with navy and or sams and our airforce do nothing they came and destroy our naval force dont be ....
5 of course iran hit aramco and oil field in su every one think like that and i dont know why yemen dont hit them

If you think we should and will go after Saudi Oil and ports that ship Saudi Oil then why the hell are you arguing with me????????? You should be arguing with Amir who thinks we shouldn't be hitting those targets because they are civilian targets and we don't want to escalate even after they take out most of our Naval capabilities

My entire argument is about the fact that we can waist missiles that cost up to a million usd each on empty bases and Iranian Fatteh-110, Fatteh-313, Zolfaghar, Qiam, Raad,... Missiles will have to target Saudi Oil Facilities and Saudi ports that export Oil & power plants that power their Air Force & Naval bases.....

And if I have to keep repeating my self I will! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PAYLOAD or the kinetic power of Iranian Ballistic missiles. Those things mean nothing without accuracy, reliability and live actionable intel!

Saudi's would naturally move their fighters and ships to bases beyond 1000km away prior to an attack to keep them out of range of Iranian Fatteh-110, Fatteh-313, Zolfaghar, Qiam, Raad, Ya-Ali missiles,...!

And this idea that you have that every Iranian Sejil, Emad, Khoramshar & Ghadr missile fired is going to land within it's designated CEP every single time is ONLY wishful thinking!
When they are expecting a retaliation at least 20% of your missiles will get intercepted and another 50% of the missiles will fail to achieve their designated CEP! So even if you had a CEP of 50 meters (which they don't)
that is still are not accurate enough to target individual Aircraft bunkers.

And there are well over 250 targets that you'll need to hit at and around King Fahad AFB base that is over 1300 km from Iran & you'll need another 50 direct hits to make sure nothing can takeoff from that base so yes to fully take out that one base alone you'll need well over 500 MRBM with a CEP of 20-50 meters! Iran needs to go after Saudi oil and any facility that helps fund and power their Air Force

That doesn't mean Iran is not going to target that base, Yes Iran will hit some runways & drop a bunch of missiles with cluster warheads that will cause havoc and disrupt operation but it would be absurd for Iran to go after individual bunkers using it's current MRBM
 
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AmirPatriot,

Let me be clear, when it comes to naval matters, Iran doesn't need the RSAF to be grounded to wipe out most of the RSN fleet. If still active however, the RSAF will easily wipe out any surface combatant over a 200 tons or so displacement in a matter of hours and all while the RSN sits in port (likely regardless of whether these vessels take any hostile action first). Even with the RSAF out of action, there's no sense in sending any of the IRIN large surface combatants against the RSN fleet, as they would likely lose any head-on confrontation. Best to keep their distance and take a few AshM potshots to possibly herd/lure the RSN vessels into an ambush.

Iran's ability conduct SEAD actions is largely a guess based on what I've seen. Ideally, Iran would target Saudi Patriot sites with a mix of Soumars (against assuming they've been built in enough numbers), with Karrar drones launched simultaneously to cause confusion and increase the odds of the real LACMs making it to the target. Wouldn't hurt to fit some of the Karrar "decoys" with small HE warheads as well and send them to the rough GPS coordinates of the intended targets as a cheap fail-safe. Specifically, you want to target the Patriot batteries radars, as they make for a small number of targets (thus easily to swarm) and without radars, all those launchers the Saudis have would be useless, at least temporarily. Using the Hormuz-2 is also a factor but also a wildcard, as it could be targeted by the very thing it is targeting.

All the pieces to pull off such a strategy are there, just don't know if anyone there has thought it out and I may have missed some factors making such a strategy more problematic.

Also, just some background the Saudis and their Patriots.

From what I can gather, the Saudis are currently converting their existing PAC-2s to PAC-3s. Whether this will be ALL their existing Patriots batteries or if they are going for a mix, I'm not sure. Again, exactly how many Patriot launchers the Saudis have is hard to nail down. My research suggests a figure of 80-90 launchers is quite possible and that maybe a low-ball estimate. The number of missiles imported is VERY high. According to SIPRI's databases (backed up by defense news reports), we're looking at as many as 1774 PAC-2 missiles and 320 PAC-3 missiles, with more PAC-3s coming (~600 PAC-3 missiles ordered back in 2015).

Saudi Patriot sites often have 6-9 launchers surrounding a central concrete pedestal where the MPQ-53/65 is positioned. These sites are all very pre-prepared, with the whole launch site being concrete. Some of these sites even have some partial concrete shelters surrounding the launchers to protect them from damage from explosions. However, Patriots can be positioned off-road, though they still don't "shoot and scoot" like S-300/400s can.
 
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ALCON,

Bit of a brain storm here folks so I apologize in advance of the length of this post.

First, lets be perfectly clear. "On paper", it's hard to see how the Saudis could be more prepared for a conflict with Iran (with a few exceptions addressed below). The question is, how well can they use their excellent kit?

It's interesting, at least to me, how the Saudis & Iranian defenses are set up to deal with certain threats, and the possible pitfalls they face. For example..

1) Cruise Missiles (regardless of target)- Iranian military planners have clearly paid attention to the USAF/USN use of LACMs in nearly every conflict since 1991. These are still a difficult threat to deal with for any military.
> For the Saudis, due to their aging Shahine SAMs (their only real low-level SAM), they relay on the RSAF to not only provide early warning (via E-3s/Saab 2000s, likely much earlier than any ground-based radar could) but also likely in their neutralization via fighter jets.
> For Iran, they have no airborne early warning to a cruise missile attack and instead are forced to relay entirely on ground-based radar units. Likewise, as the IRIAF is ill-suited to task of dispatching large #s of LACMs, ground-based SHORADs and deception (GPS jammers for example) are their only real defense.

2) Runway Attack- The reliance on long, undamaged runways, was identified VERY early in the Cold War and was one of the chief drivers behind the development of the British Harrier (folks forget that putting it on a carrier was something of an afterthought). Curiously though, the idea eventually fell out of favor (for any number of reasons). Such attacks can come from accurate, sub-munition warhead equipped ballistic missiles, low-flying strike aircraft, or cruise-missiles with sub-munition warheads.
>As such, a successfully attack on the runways of RSAF air bases is a real threat. Their only real defense is their Patriot batteries or the preventive elimination of enemy launch sites & TELs. Hiding their valuable combat aircraft is fine and dandy, but if the Patriots fail to keep a majority of missiles from impacting, quickly repairing the runways after each wave of attack will become a game of persistence and possible futility.
>>WILDCARD- Given growing signs of a greater Egypt-Saudi alliance, Egypt could potentially open her airfields to the RSAF to evacuate to temporarily. Putting their most valuable assets (tankers, AWACs, & F-15S/SA) as far West as possible will allow them to still be able to operate in their own airspace from a safer distance (where Iran would be forced to use her more long-range BMs, which limits the saturation factor and gives Egyptian Patriot & S-300V batteries better odds of success). Not to mention if Iran does attack these new locations for the RSAF, it drags another powerful military into the conflict, expanding the conflict likely beyond Iran's ability to control.
>For Iran, this threat doesn't come from ballistic missiles but from the RSAF. The inventory of weapons available to the RSAF to attack IRIAF bases from afar (aka outside of most of their SAMs, including the S-300PMU2 in some cases). How many such weapons are configured with sub-munition warheads is unknown. Only options to protect runways is via SHORADs and electronic jamming.

3) Hardened Aircraft Shelters or HAS- I'm NOT as confident Iran is prepared to deal with these. For modern HAS, a true bunker-buster bomb would be needed, something Iran has not demonstrated having yet. The Ghased (not to detract from it) is "just" a normal 2000lb bomb with a TV seeker and wing kit. Bunker-busters have specially designed warheads and often hardened tips to maximize penetration upon impact. Iran's KAB-1500Ls are probably the closet to real bunker-busters we know about and more so due to their larger warheads.

4) Wild Weasel Attacks- aka attacks on ground-based air defense sites. This can come from manned/unmanned platforms and from cruise missiles.
>The threat to Saudi radar sites would likely come from a combination of Iranian suicide drones, LACMs (if the Soumar has been built in large #s), and ballistic missiles (Hormuz-2 being a prime candidate). This multi-pronged threat would be difficult to deal with. It would difficult for the RSADF and RSAF to determine which targets were real threats or decoys.
>This threat to Iran comes solely from the RSAF, which has a surprisingly large inventory of medium-range LACMs (~1100), ~350 JSOW stand-off weapons & 600 AGM-88s in their inventory. They obviously wouldn't use ALL their LACMs on Iranian radar/SAM sites but they are among the "best" targets. They also have large inventories of many other kinds of smart munitions (thousands of Hellfires, Mavericks, Paveways, JDAMs, and SDBs) which also could be used, depending on the threat level to the aircraft.

5) Naval Attack- Easily the most lop-sided element of any future conflict between Iran and Saudi Arabia is on the sea.
> For the RSN, the threats from Iran are numerous. Coastal AshM batteries, ASBMs, mini-submarines, and swarms of variously-armed FACs. Not reliant on runways, the Saudis best strategy (assuming the RSAF is grounded) would be to use their large fleet of AH-64s from the ground forces, combined with the RSN's respectable inventory of helos to try and deal with Iranian swarm attacks and submarines.
> For the IRIN/IRCN, the primary threat is again from the RSAF. Should it be removed from the playing field, the RSN's surface fleet with be very exposed. Even with my proposed helo strategy, equipped every surface vessel over 50 tons displacement with at least 1 MANPAD team (& then spreading some among the smaller vessels) will diminish that threat considerably.

This "little" brain storm excludes a lot of tactics, how I think such a conflict could start, and the very idea of the US intervening...which it ABSOLUTELY would under the current administration, no matter who starts it.

Cheers.
I think one thing your analysis is missing is infrastructure and its vulnerability to missile attack. Iran doesn't need to destroy every single bunker, fighter jet, air base and radar to win the war.

Just by looking at the population of KSA and its geography, you will know the current population is only sustainable due to use of technology, i.e. power plants, desalination plants and power assisted farming and cattle farms. KSA natural environment cannot support any real farming or large size cattle farms and for that matter its current population.

All Iran needs to do is to attack power plants, refineries, oilfields, desalination plants and ports to limit any imports. That would bring KSA to its knees and half of its population will suffer from lack of water and food. On the other hand, as war with Iraq showed, Iran is much less sensitive to loss of infrastructure while its strategic depth will always protect at least half of its infrastructure from any attacking party that wants to use air force.
 
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I think Iran air defense forces at least in early warning part doing good job, if Saudis would start a massive attack on Iran with their air force (Like what Saddam did at the beginning of the Iran-Iraq war which luckily failed) and we couldn't defend ourselves and receive damage in that level and lose our naval forces and air bases in south then to be honest my friend we've lost the game already ... 'cause being surprised in war just means defeat .. I don't think we would never start a war and that means we should always be prepared to defend which obviously needs to have an eye on your foes all the time to not get surprised. but again by referring to Iran and Iraq war, despite clear attempts and provocation of Saddam since Esfand 57 we didn't respond very well and eventually war started which could have prevented and saved country from such a war.
I do agree with you that we need to escalate situation if war starts, because if you don't do that it means you give them this message that what ever they do Iran responses are limited to some missile attack on some military targets without any serious damage which undoubtedly would encourage them to attack again but if you have a strong defend system that repel their attacks causing them severe damage and then a crushing respond they would recalculate their strategy , it could first prevent war from getting prolonged and secondly a clear message to others that Iran would not hesitate a second to defend itself.

Yup Iran would have to at lease wipe out half of their Oil infrastructure instantly but leave the other half so they still fear loosing more!
We also have to hit a few Power plants, oil rigs, ports that ship oil! And these are assets that the Saudi's can't move & Iranian missiles can easily destroy!

To end the war and prevent such action from ever happening again Iran's response needs to be disproportionate and you need to hit and destroy assets that cause financial pain to a point that shocks them! And Iran has the capability to do that as long as we don't restrict ourselves to military bases!



@raptor22 @AmirPatriot @VEVAK

You are all overstating the effectiveness of Saudi Air Defences.

Be realistic and read this article:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...east/saudi-missile-defense.html?smid=tw-share

Saudi Air Defence my a**


It's NOT about Saudi Air Defense! At best Saudi Air Defense will intercept 20 out of every 100 missile fired on that base but out of the 80 that land even if the CEP of all Iranian MRBM were 50 meters (Which they are NOT)only ~ 40 of them will land within that CEP!
so out of 300 missiles fired only 120 will land within a CEP of 50 meters and that's just not accurate enough to ensure that you'll take out a target inside a hardened Aircraft bunker
Also, there are over 120 Aircraft bunkers and you'll need another 40 hits on runways and strips that aircrafts could possibly take off from or land on
So we are up to 400 MRBM and you still haven't targeted 100's of other bunkers & facilities located at and around that base!
So you've just emptied out 400 MRBM and for all you knew there were only handful of fighters on the ground at the time the missiles hit because the Saudi early warning systems, sat's,.... picked up your launches and scrambled most of the fighters at that base because they were expecting worst case scenarios and were monitoring your launches!
 
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AmirPatriot,

Let me be clear, when it comes to naval matters, Iran doesn't need the RSAF to be grounded to wipe out most of the RSN fleet. If still active however, the RSAF will easily wipe out any surface combatant over a 200 tons or so displacement in a matter of hours and all while the RSN sits in port (likely regardless of whether these vessels take any hostile action first). Even with the RSAF out of action, there's no sense in sending any of the IRIN large surface combatants against the RSN fleet, as they would likely lose any head-on confrontation. Best to keep their distance and take a few AshM potshots to possibly herd/lure the RSN vessels into an ambush.

Iran's ability conduct SEAD actions is largely a guess based on what I've seen. Ideally, Iran would target Saudi Patriot sites with a mix of Soumars (against assuming they've been built in enough numbers), with Karrar drones launched simultaneously to cause confusion and increase the odds of the real LACMs making it to the target. Wouldn't hurt to fit some of the Karrar "decoys" with small HE warheads as well and send them to the rough GPS coordinates of the intended targets as a cheap fail-safe. Specifically, you want to target the Patriot batteries radars, as they make for a small number of targets (thus easily to swarm) and without radars, all those launchers the Saudis have would be useless, at least temporarily. Using the Hormuz-2 is also a factor but also a wildcard, as it could be targeted by the very thing it is targeting.

All the pieces to pull off such a strategy are there, just don't know if anyone there has thought it out and I may have missed some factors making such a strategy more problematic.

Also, just some background the Saudis and their Patriots.

From what I can gather, the Saudis are currently converting their existing PAC-2s to PAC-3s. Whether this will be ALL their existing Patriots batteries or if they are going for a mix, I'm not sure. Again, exactly how many Patriot launchers the Saudis have is hard to nail down. My research suggests a figure of 80-90 launchers is quite possible and that maybe a low-ball estimate. The number of missiles imported is VERY high. According to SIPRI's databases (backed up by defense news reports), we're looking at as many as 1774 PAC-2 missiles and 320 PAC-3 missiles, with more PAC-3s coming (~600 PAC-3 missiles ordered back in 2015).

Saudi Patriot sites often have 6-9 launchers surrounding a central concrete pedestal where the MPQ-53/65 is positioned. These sites are all very pre-prepared, with the whole launch site being concrete. Some of these sites even have some partial concrete shelters surrounding the launchers to protect them from damage from explosions. However, Patriots can be positioned off-road, though they still don't "shoot and scoot" like S-300/400s can.

If the Saudi's plan to attack Iran's Navy they would most likely move most of their Persian Gulf Fleet which consists of outdated corvettes, FAC, patrol boats & minesweepers out to the Red Sea where their newer ships are located they would also move most of their air assets out of reach of Iranian SRBM & most of their helo's & SAM's to secondary designated locations outside their standard known bases.
It's a logical countermeasure and you don't need to be a brilliant military tactician to know that if you plan on attacking a country like Iran then you also need to plan for Iran's retaliation.

And yes Saudi's can easily hit any Iranian sub or ship that is "docked" but the ones that remain can easily go and hunt down any Saudi Vessel in the Persian Gulf especially any Iranian midget sub that's left if the Saudi's are stupid enough to keep any of their ships inside the Persian Gulf and they would have to be even stupider to keep their Persian Gulf fleet docked!

Iran has many Islands in the Persian Gulf and a good number of them are smack in the middle of the Gulf and they are armed to the teeth with missiles & UAV's


As for any kind of SEAD operation it really depends on who initiates the attack. If Iran's the aggressor, clearly Iran will use various tactics to locate any Saudi Air Defense locations prior to any kind of attack and clearly they would take countermeasures to protect their assets against retaliatory attacks...

But if Iran is NOT the aggressor I would say Iranian military leaders are smart enough to know that the Saudi's would have taken countermeasures to protect their assets & that the Saudi's have access to U.S. intel that would warn them of mass missile launches from large and known Iranian missile bases allowing them to scramble fighters they have at bases beyond 1000km....
I would say Iranian leadership knows that they will NEVER be the aggressor which means they also know that they have NO CHOICE but to go after Saudi Oil facilities and Saudi ports that export Saudi Oil.
And since Saudi Oil is the ONLY source of income for the Saudi Military that makes it a legitimate military target!

It is absurd to think that after the Saudi's take out a large portion of Iran's Blue water and Sub capabilities that Iran would hold it's self back and reframe from going after what fuels and funds the Saudi Military and that is Saudi Oil! And it's as absurd as saying ISIS Oil tankers should have been considered as Civilian Targets and Russia should have been condemned for acts against humanity for taking out unarmed ISIS Oil Tankers!
Like it or not but if Oil is the ONLY scours of income for your military then it's clearly a legitimate military target!
Even if Iran had 500 Su-30's we would still have to go after Saudi Oil!

As for Saudi Air and Missile defense systems Iran can put a large number of decoys in 1 out of every 10 MRBM they fire so it's doubtful that the Saudi's would be able to intercept even 20% of incoming Iranian missiles

So I would say Iranian money is better spent on increasing the accuracy and reliability of Iranian MRBM by building a better more reliable PBV & smart reentry vehicle rather than wasting a large number of MRBM stockpile trying to go after Saudi SAM's in a retaliatory attack
 
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I think one thing your analysis is missing is infrastructure and its vulnerability to missile attack. Iran doesn't need to destroy every single bunker, fighter jet, air base and radar to win the war.

Just by looking at the population of KSA and its geography, you will know the current population is only sustainable due to use of technology, i.e. power plants, desalination plants and power assisted farming and cattle farms. KSA natural environment cannot support any real farming or large size cattle farms and for that matter its current population.

All Iran needs to do is to attack power plants, refineries, oilfields, desalination plants and ports to limit any imports. That would bring KSA to its knees and half of its population will suffer from lack of water and food. On the other hand, as war with Iraq showed, Iran is much less sensitive to loss of infrastructure while its strategic depth will always protect at least half of its infrastructure from any attacking party that wants to use air force.

But our oil platforms and ports and other related infrastructure that we rely on for revenue are located in Persian gulf and Straight of Hormuz next to Saudis not deep in Iran territories.
 
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But our oil platforms and ports and other related infrastructure that we rely on for revenue are located in Persian gulf and Straight of Hormuz next to Saudis not deep in Iran territories.
Agreed. But it is not any closer to them then it was to Iraq. And in case nothing gets in or out of the country, Iran has a much larger chance of survival than KSA.
 
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Agreed. But it is not any closer to them then it was to Iraq. And in case nothing gets in or out of the country, Iran has a much larger chance of survival than KSA.

But back then we had a proper air force to defend them. Now we don't have that. And we don't have potent air defence based in the Persian Gulf. Relying on land based air defence alone cannot prevent offshore platforms from aerial attack. The SDB, for example, is a glide bomb carried by Saudi F-15s that has a range of 110 km. That means Saudi F-15s could launch attacks on offshore oil and gas rigs using just bombs and not more expensive missiles (though cost doesn't really matter for them).

Another reason why we need a good air force, and also a potent air defence destroyer.
 
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But back then we had a proper air force to defend them. Now we don't have that. And we don't have potent air defence based in the Persian Gulf. Relying on land based air defence alone cannot prevent offshore platforms from aerial attack. The SDB, for example, is a glide bomb carried by Saudi F-15s that has a range of 110 km. That means Saudi F-15s could launch attacks on offshore oil and gas rigs using just bombs and not more expensive missiles (though cost doesn't really matter for them).

Another reason why we need a good air force, and also a potent air defence destroyer.
Which we can not have at least for next 4 to 5 years if we wanna buy and more than a decade if we decide right now to design and produce one locally by our own.
 
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Which we can not have at least for next 4 to 5 years if we wanna buy and more than a decade if we decide right now to design and produce one locally by our own.
If Russia agrees to sell us some SU-30s , without TOT , we can purchase only 12 fighters per year. Sukhoi company receives a lot of orders from around the world. A long queue !!!!

JCPOA was signed in 2015/January/14, arms embargo will be lifted after 5 years. 2020/January/14. WTF? Negotiating team were a bunch of blind/clueless/stupids. Forget it. Until 2020 there will be no foreign fighters for us. Better to work on a homemade stuff. If the peaceful stupids did not cut it's budget, we can easily design a Mig-29-class fighter jet which can at least defend us against cruise missiles.
 
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Which we can not have at least for next 4 to 5 years if we wanna buy and more than a decade if we decide right now to design and produce one locally by our own.

Yes, we should pursue our own aircraft program. But just because we have our program doesn't mean we shouldn't buy foreign aircraft, just in case.

JCPOA was signed in 2015/January/14, arms embargo will be lifted after 5 years. 2020/January/14.

Deal was signed in June, Implementation day started in October. So we have to wait till October 2020. 2 years and 10 months left. Went by rather quickly didn't it? And consider that while we're waiting, the Russians can manufacture Su-30s. So they can deliver a large batch in 2020. That is, if Iran actually hurries up and signs the deal already...

Negotiating team were a bunch of blind/clueless/stupids

Considering the P5+1 were talking about keeping it indefinitely, I think they did ok. You can't expect immediate arms sanction lifting.
 
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Deal was signed in June, Implementation day started in October. So we have to wait till October 2020. 2 years and 10 months left. Went by rather quickly didn't it? And consider that while we're waiting, the Russians can manufacture Su-30s. So they can deliver a large batch in 2020. That is, if Iran actually hurries up and signs the deal already...
x1f64f.png.pagespeed.ic.3nMzNoWFo4.png

Considering the P5+1 were talking about keeping it indefinitely, I think they did ok. You can't expect immediate arms sanction lifting.
Well, i thought they have added that term voluntarily. Some news websites reported that.
 
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Yes, we should pursue our own aircraft program. But just because we have our program doesn't mean we shouldn't buy foreign aircraft, just in case.



Deal was signed in June, Implementation day started in October. So we have to wait till October 2020. 2 years and 10 months left. Went by rather quickly didn't it? And consider that while we're waiting, the Russians can manufacture Su-30s. So they can deliver a large batch in 2020. That is, if Iran actually hurries up and signs the deal already...



Considering the P5+1 were talking about keeping it indefinitely, I think they did ok. You can't expect immediate arms sanction lifting.
If they haven't realized the importance of superior Air force they're not gonna get it for the next decade too neither.
I said 4~5 years by considering the idea that I think no deal has been inked or will before that date which means at least it would take 2 years more if we sign it in Dec 2020 considering Russian bad record in supporting and providing spare parts of Mig-29s in 90s I don't count on it. though I've seen many people claims Su-30s are under way not to mention all these possible if nuclear deal survives till that date.
By the way I hope there would a real indigenous big fighter jet program and one day some guys come up and said we've working on such a program and now here you are like this:

assistant-secretary-of-defense-mr-j-daniel-howard.jpg
 
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Well, i thought they have added that term voluntarily. Some news websites reported that.
o_O at those websites. These were negotiated as part of the JCPOA, since they are UN sanctions put into place because of the nuclear issue.
 
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o_O at those websites. These were negotiated as part of the JCPOA, since they are UN sanctions put into place because of the nuclear issue.
I mean the term of 5 years delay was voluntarily chosen by our team. Even China and Russia were complaining about it but our team willingly trusted western side. They shouldve insisted on removing arms embargo immediately right after signing the deal. BTW, it's in the past bro, i hope you were right. Otherwise that's a big loss.
 
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